Can you make it to the market on a bike?

[Ryan Cousineau]

In article <[email protected]>,
donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Jul 31, 7:53 pm, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
> <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Big Billy also needs to be taught a lesson. Videotaping the behavior
> > would be a good start. Send the video to the local police, and if that
> > does not help, send it to all the local television stations. Complain
> > to the police commission, alderman, mayor, etc, and make yourself a
> > nuisance until someone does something.
> >
>
> I saw somewhere I video camera that attaches to your helmet. That
> would come real handy, but it would turn you into a vigilante fighting
> the bad guys on the road. And that would make you more crazy than
> DonQuixote fighting the windmills as there too many reckless drivers
> out there.

Nah. Here's how Don Quixote, equipped only with his trusty video camera
(we'll call it "Sancho") would operate:

1) obnoxious behaviour recorded
2) without confronting the driver, a copy of the incident is sent to the
police as an adjunct to a formal complaint.

There is no step 3,

--
Ryan Cousineau [email protected] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos

 

[Bill Z.]

Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:

> Bill Zaumen wrote:
> > Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman writes:
> >
> > > Bill Zaumen wrote:
> > > > ...
> >
> > You have to read this handbook to pass the California driver's test.
> > Drivers know what the rules are. If they harrass you anyway, it is
> > not because they weren't taught the rules. It's because they don't
> > care.
>
> Bah. I don't believe it for a second. Most drivers learn enough of the
> rules to pass the written test ONCE while in their teens. The average
> driver has likely not been forced to learn the rules of the road in 25
> years. Furthermore, most driver education classes do not even mention
> bicycles (mine didn't).

You have to take a written test more frequently than that in California.
<http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#RENEW> mentions that if you are
renewing, you may have to take a written exam. They don't require it
every time, but even with an excellent driving record, you may still
have to take it every so often.

The California DMV includes bicycle-related questions on all written
tests, so you better know the material.

--
My real name backwards: nemuaZ lliB

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> One basic reason YOU NEED BIKE LANES is that when you don't have them,
> YOU ARE LEFT WITH NO LANES.

And as I know from mostly not having any bike lanes, that's not actually
a problem. I know that from real, empirical experience.

Here it comes again: we know bike lanes are not a Big Win, because their
real world track record shows us that they are typically more dangerous
than the roads. I know you don't want to hear that, but closing your
ears doesn't make it go away.

> THE CARS THINK (AND ACT) LIKE THEY OWN THE
> LANES, all of them.

You're greatly exaggerating.
For a start, many, many cyclists are drivers too, and they don't have
their minds magically morphed into a Jekyll/Hyde thing by getting into
their cars. IME (which is on Planet Earth) I get consideration from
drivers when I show it in return, and we co-exist very well for the most
part.

Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.

They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[DougC]

donquijote1954 wrote:
> ... I can ride leisurely my cruiser with huge baskets to the
> supermaket through some quiet, safe streets, about 0.7 mile.
>
> Regrettably, my happiness ends at this point as going any further
> places me right on major roads, where the major predators rule....
> ... Great places are within biking
> distance, up to 15 miles, along parks, beaches and scenic places, but
> NO BIKE LANES are provided, and I just play it safe.....
>

The problem with this plan is that typically "the squeaky wheel gets the
grease". The only way that gov't would know that a bike lane was even
necessary was if there were lots of complaints of motorists being held
up by bicyclists.

Where I live the only roads prohibited for bicycles are interstate
highways; every other road is legal and free. Get a good rear-view
mirror, get out there, and get in the way. Every motorist that gets
****** off at you for slowing them down is one more "advocate" for bike
lanes.
~

 

[George Conklin]

"DougC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:qE%[email protected]...
> donquijote1954 wrote:
> > ... I can ride leisurely my cruiser with huge baskets to the
> > supermaket through some quiet, safe streets, about 0.7 mile.
> >
> > Regrettably, my happiness ends at this point as going any further
> > places me right on major roads, where the major predators rule....
> > ... Great places are within biking
> > distance, up to 15 miles, along parks, beaches and scenic places, but
> > NO BIKE LANES are provided, and I just play it safe.....
> >
>
> The problem with this plan is that typically "the squeaky wheel gets the
> grease". The only way that gov't would know that a bike lane was even
> necessary was if there were lots of complaints of motorists being held
> up by bicyclists.

Based on the bicycle militants posting here, bicycles do not "hold up"
cars.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Jul 31, 10:29 pm, [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> Wayne Pein <[email protected]> writes:
> > Bill Z. wrote:
>
> > > ROTFLMAO - classic projection just as I said! You are the guy
> > > spewing all the venom! You are reduced to acting like a little
> > > boy spouting insults. And over what? Bike lanes? Grow up.
>
> > Damn, you are fool. Get off the floor Zauman!
>
> (Of course, being embarassed by his behavior, Pein snipped his
> infantile insults before replying.)
>
> Pein, why don't you get some professional help for your problem? You
> might start with an anger-management class, although a psychiatrist
> might be able to give you a more apropos suggestion.

If a psychiatrist can help a caveman, he should benefit from it. Bike
lanes are so easy even a caveman can do it!

 

[donquijote1954]

On Jul 31, 10:39 pm, [email protected] (Bill Z.) wrote:
> Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman <[email protected]> writes:
>
> > Bill Zaumen wrote:
> > > ...
> > > Pein has yet to explain why a bike lane stripe is worse than a
> > > shoulder stripe place a foot or two to the right of where the bike
> > > lane stripe is.
>
> > The bicycle lane leads motor vehicles operators (who are not cyclists)
> > to believe that cyclists should be confined to bike lanes, bike paths,
> > etc. This creates an especial difficulty when needing to make a left
> > turn [1], since the cagers wonder "what the hell is the cyclist doing
> > out of the bike lane?"
>
> Except it is not true - that is simply a bogus argument some people
> have put out. Look up the California Driver's Handbook
> <http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/driver_handbook_toc.htm> and
> specifically <http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/hdbk/pgs55thru57.htm#bike>:

The cavemen driving out there are not THAT stupid. They just want to
use their vehicles as clubs.

 

[Peter Clinch]

George Conklin wrote:

> Based on the bicycle militants posting here, bicycles do not "hold up"
> cars.

For some values of "holding up"...

I know how much I get held up by bikes in the car, and it's typically
not very much at all, despite being religiously careful in overtaking
giving huge amounts of room (because I appreciate that myself when I'm
on a bike and people do it for me). Often as many as /whole seconds/
pass before I have a good overtaking opportunity, and where it actual
trickles on into minutes normally I'm only being held up in getting to
the next delay a little later.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[donquijote1954]

On Jul 31, 11:10 pm, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
<[email protected]> wrote:

> If it were up to me, those without a basic understanding of
> kinematics, dynamics, theoretical vehicle handling and a comprehensive
> grasp of not only the traffic law but the fundamental principles and
> historical basis of right-of-way would not be allow to operate motor
> vehicles.

Yeah, but that would require taking away the Driver's License from 50%
of American drivers.

Such a loss to the economy is not warranted so there can be some rules
of the road. It's better to put everybody behind the wheel for the
sake of profits.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 12:13 am, Ryan Cousineau <[email protected]> wrote:
> In article <[email protected]>,
>
>
>
>
>
> donquijote1954 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > On Jul 31, 7:53 pm, Johnny Sunset aka Tom Sherman
> > <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > > Big Billy also needs to be taught a lesson. Videotaping the behavior
> > > would be a good start. Send the video to the local police, and if that
> > > does not help, send it to all the local television stations. Complain
> > > to the police commission, alderman, mayor, etc, and make yourself a
> > > nuisance until someone does something.
>
> > I saw somewhere I video camera that attaches to your helmet. That
> > would come real handy, but it would turn you into a vigilante fighting
> > the bad guys on the road. And that would make you more crazy than
> > DonQuixote fighting the windmills as there too many reckless drivers
> > out there.
>
> Nah. Here's how Don Quixote, equipped only with his trusty video camera
> (we'll call it "Sancho") would operate:
>
> 1) obnoxious behaviour recorded
> 2) without confronting the driver, a copy of the incident is sent to the
> police as an adjunct to a formal complaint.
>
> There is no step 3,

Makes sense. It would have to record sound though so all that name
calling goes with the report: "Hey you, stupid asshole, get outta my
way."

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*


You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
OR DANISH LEVELS?

Would you deny that bike lanes bring people out? How 'bout this other
setup?

http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/physically-separated-bike-lanes/

Remember this piece in the dialog, "It's a war zone out there"...

(The Great Ed is gonna love this!)

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> OR DANISH LEVELS?

Level all the hills and change history so we'd never lost our bike culture.

Or in other words, stop dreaming and get real. If it does happen it's
going to take a /very/ long time and you'll need more than bike lanes to
achieve it.

> Would you deny that bike lanes bring people out? How 'bout this other
> setup?

I haven't seen any particular evidence that they do. I've seen plenty
of suggestions from people that they'd cycle if there were more, but
where there have been more it hasn't appeared to make any real
difference because the excuse is just an excuse. The basic problem is
not being in the habit.

> http://www.streetfilms.org/archives/physically-separated-bike-lanes/

They don't really help. And they've been shown not to help and we can
see them not helping in practice.
Take the Milton Keynes Redways, a New Town in England built with
completely separate bike lanes so everyone can get about by bike. Only
they tend not to, and those that do don't appear to be any safer than
folks in other places using the roads.

> Remember this piece in the dialog, "It's a war zone out there"...

No it's not, unless you're into pointless exaggeration.

One thing you can do to encourage more people onto bikes is stop
routinely exaggerating the dangers. Why are people going to want to go
cycling if it's a "war zone"?

What you need to do is tell it like it /actually is/: a relatively safe
and remarkably efficient, cheap and healthy way to get about. As
opposed to some ridiculous story where folks will run over them for the
sake of it, where they need to be civilly disobedient to get their
rights, and where there's a war going on. That really sounds like a
good reason to start using a bike! (not)

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Clive George]

"Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
news:[email protected]...
> donquijote1954 wrote:
>
>> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
>> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
>> OR DANISH LEVELS?
>
> Level all the hills and change history so we'd never lost our bike
> culture.

There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large increase in
riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...

cheers,
clive

 

[Peter Clinch]

Clive George wrote:
> "Peter Clinch" <[email protected]> wrote in message
> news:[email protected]...
>> donquijote1954 wrote:
>>
>>> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
>>> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
>>> OR DANISH LEVELS?
>>
>> Level all the hills and change history so we'd never lost our bike
>> culture.
>
> There are other ways, but most are not what would be acceptable in a
> civilised culture - eg the one which was responsible for a large
> increase in riding in London unfortunately involved killing 52 people...

Even that's not enough, and nor are "punitive measures in a war against
the motorist" like the Congestion Charge. Yes, cycling is up in London
by an amazing amount, but to "Dutch or Danish levels" as asked for?
Nowhere near it, AFAICT.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Pat]

On Aug 1, 10:43 am, donquijote1954 <[email protected]>
wrote:
> On Aug 1, 4:00 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > Yes, there are some idiots who'll sit behind you and honk at you, but
> > they won't run you down, because it might scratch the paintwork. If you
> > push people off into bike lanes as a rule they will be far more maligned
> > and looked down upon on the instances where they have no choice to use
> > the roads, if they're typically in a bike lane instead.
>
> > They don't help. We know they don't help as we can see them not
> > helping. *HAVE YOU GOT THAT YET?*
>
> You still avoiding my question: BIKE LANES OR NO BIKE LANES, HOW DO WE
> BRING BIKE RIDERSHIP FROM THE AMERICAN OR BRITISH LEVES TO THE DUTCH
> OR DANISH LEVELS?

You see, you are thinking about the problem from the wrong direction.
You are saying "biking is great, what is wrong with everyone else".
Instead, you need to examine why other people don't bike and address
that.

Predominantly, I would think it is the combination of "no time to bike
& no place to bike to". Most people won't bike to work if they get
sweaty or if they work the night shift, etc. Bike lanes might
partially address the "no place to bike to" issue, but not really.

For example, I need to run out and get my kid some things for football
practice. While we're at it we need to do some back-to-school
shopping. Okay, that's simple and the kid is in great shape. I just
need to run to the nearest sporting goods store. Fortunately, there's
a small mall across the street. This trip is a bit unusually because
I do 90% of my shopping at the nest Walmart. So ideally, this is
bikeable. But the problem is, the nearest sporting goods store is
about 45 miles away. That's about 15 miles past the Walmart. So at
10 mph (because of the hills and the purchases), you're talking at 9
hour bike ride.

So I think your idea has merit, it just needs to be tweeked. The
community didn't allow a Walmart because of a DOT right-of-way issue.
But maybe if we had more Walmarts, so that they were closer to people,
the people could bike to them easier. Plus if they put in
SuperCenters with groceries, then more shopping could be done in 1
trip.

So I guess bike lanes are part of the problem, but having a place to
go is the other part. Therefore, maybe you should lobby for more
Walmarts -- and have them tied into bikeways -- to encourage shopping
by bike.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 9:11 am, DougC <[email protected]> wrote:
> donquijote1954 wrote:
> > ... I can ride leisurely my cruiser with huge baskets to the
> > supermaket through some quiet, safe streets, about 0.7 mile.
>
> > Regrettably, my happiness ends at this point as going any further
> > places me right on major roads, where the major predators rule....
> > ... Great places are within biking
> > distance, up to 15 miles, along parks, beaches and scenic places, but
> > NO BIKE LANES are provided, and I just play it safe.....
>
> The problem with this plan is that typically "the squeaky wheel gets the
> grease". The only way that gov't would know that a bike lane was even
> necessary was if there were lots of complaints of motorists being held
> up by bicyclists.
>
> Where I live the only roads prohibited for bicycles are interstate
> highways; every other road is legal and free. Get a good rear-view
> mirror, get out there, and get in the way. Every motorist that gets
> ****** off at you for slowing them down is one more "advocate" for bike
> lanes.
> ~

Thank you for explaining so well what I have in mind. Actually that's
the idea behind...

http://www.cafepress.com/burncalories

In other words, we need an identifying, conspicuous and explanatory T-
shirt that makes us part of an ORGANIZED CAMPAIGN. "In union there's
strength," you know. If I currently "play it safe" is because there's
nobody else out there challenging the status quo in significant
numbers or in an organized way. And Critical Mass doesn't cut it for
me, as they try to block the road, not just TAKE THE LANE and let
drivers pass you on the next lanes. You want to make friends, not
enemies. And Critical Mass doesn't do it regularly either, like we
need in real life situations such as getting to the market, work, etc.
Once we get it going though I'll be the first one in the line of duty.
As for the profits, we can set up ALL of it to create more bike lanes
--adjacent or separated from the road. So everybody should be happy,
bikers and drivers, pro bike lanes and anti bike lanes. Well, these
last ones are hard to please.

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 9:54 am, "George Conklin" <[email protected]>
wrote:
> "DougC" <[email protected]> wrote in message
>
> news:qE%[email protected]...
>
> > donquijote1954 wrote:
> > > ... I can ride leisurely my cruiser with huge baskets to the
> > > supermaket through some quiet, safe streets, about 0.7 mile.
>
> > > Regrettably, my happiness ends at this point as going any further
> > > places me right on major roads, where the major predators rule....
> > > ... Great places are within biking
> > > distance, up to 15 miles, along parks, beaches and scenic places, but
> > > NO BIKE LANES are provided, and I just play it safe.....
>
> > The problem with this plan is that typically "the squeaky wheel gets the
> > grease". The only way that gov't would know that a bike lane was even
> > necessary was if there were lots of complaints of motorists being held
> > up by bicyclists.
>
> Based on the bicycle militants posting here, bicycles do not "hold up"
> cars.

More often than not stupid drivers hold up other smart drivers. As for
the bikes, MORE BIKES MEANS FEWER CARS!

 

[Peter Clinch]

donquijote1954 wrote:

> In other words, we need an identifying, conspicuous and explanatory T-
> shirt that makes us part of an ORGANIZED CAMPAIGN. "In union there's
> strength," you know.

Within the union, yes, but you're trying to address people outside it.
One way of putting off "normal people", IME, is being a strident
activist. Look at recycling: green evangelists go on about it and not
much happens, but if the Normal People next door are doing it then other
Normal People will join in.

> You want to make friends, not enemies.

Absolutely. See above.

> As for the profits, we can set up ALL of it to create more bike lanes
> --adjacent or separated from the road.

Even though we know they don't help. You still haven't taken that on
board, but it's still true. Bike lanes are not the answer to anyone
except the road paint industry.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[donquijote1954]

On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:

> No it's not, unless you're into pointless exaggeration.
>
> One thing you can do to encourage more people onto bikes is stop
> routinely exaggerating the dangers. Why are people going to want to go
> cycling if it's a "war zone"?
>
> What you need to do is tell it like it /actually is/: a relatively safe
> and remarkably efficient, cheap and healthy way to get about. As
> opposed to some ridiculous story where folks will run over them for the
> sake of it, where they need to be civilly disobedient to get their
> rights, and where there's a war going on. That really sounds like a
> good reason to start using a bike! (not)
>

Would you tell the people going into Iraq that it's a piece of cake?
No, I guess... You tell them IT'S A WAR ZONE, and then you give them
proper armor and ammunition to survive, right? Well, the armor and
ammunition here is your strategy, ie. A NONVIOLENT CAMPAIGN TO TAKE
THE LANE. I doubt the terrorists are ready for that.

 

[[email protected]]

On Aug 1, 11:02 am, Peter Clinch <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
> One thing you can do to encourage more people onto bikes is stop
> routinely exaggerating the dangers. Why are people going to want to go
> cycling if it's a "war zone"?
>
> What you need to do is tell it like it /actually is/: a relatively safe
> and remarkably efficient, cheap and healthy way to get about. As
> opposed to some ridiculous story where folks will run over them for the
> sake of it, where they need to be civilly disobedient to get their
> rights, and where there's a war going on. That really sounds like a
> good reason to start using a bike! (not)

Peter Clinch is absolutely right.

"Donquijote1954" returns time and again, whining loudly about the
terrible dangers of riding a bicycle. He cries and pleads for a
complete redesign of the world's infrastructure. Meanwhile, millions
of us are using this existing world, riding our bikes for
transportation and recreation, enjoying it immensely, and suffering
none of the horrors he imagines.

What is it that makes characters like "Donquijote" portray bicycling
as dangerous? How can they remain so ignorant of the real data
showing how safe it is? Why do they try so hard to scare people away
from a beneficial activity they pretend to love?

Since I can't think of a gentler metaphor, pardon me - but
"Donquijote," you need to grow some balls! Some people are going to
occasionally honk their horns at you or yell at you, whether you walk,
ride your bicycle, ride your motorcycle or drive your car. It's true
whether there are bike lanes or no, whether the road is wide or
narrow, whether you're on a street or path or bike lane or crosswalk
or sidewalk.

Don't expect the police to take the role of your Mommy, to hold your
hand and tell the other guy he's being bad. You've got a right to the
road. Use it! Don't give any satisfaction to the jerks, and don't
let them worry you.

And for God's sake, stop whining!

- Frank Krygowski