Basic navigational skills badly missing

Rodders said:

4 men who were found after a search in the Cairngorms had good equipment but
poor navigational skills were a few miles from where they thought they were.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4467894.stm

Navigational mistakes happen, even to people trained in navigation who
were paying attention to what they were doing. The only way to avoid
them entirely is to stay in the house.

I don't think it's clear from the article (as it currently appears)
that they lacked basic navigation skills. Skills quite a lot more
sophisticated than that are required in those sorts of conditions. I'm
basically saying that I don't think we have nearly enough info to
start labelling them.

Thank goodness they're safe, anyway.

Wet fishes,
--
,,
(**)PeeWiglet~~
/ \ / \ pee AT [guessthisbit].co.uk

Peewiglet said:

I don't think it's clear from the article (as it currently appears)
that they lacked basic navigation skills.

That seems to be the case. The MRT seemed to be saying they lacked
/appropriate/ navigational skills for the time and place..

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Peter Clinch said:

That seems to be the case. The MRT seemed to be saying they lacked
/appropriate/ navigational skills for the time and place..

"Mr Topp told the BBC: "It just goes to show no matter how much you think
you're experienced, you never know what the weather is going to throw at
you."

But if they'd actually checked the forecast, they'd have had a pretty good
idea. The BBC forecast these conditions last Sunday.

Paul

Peter Clinch said:

Peewiglet said:

I don't think it's clear from the article (as it currently appears)
that they lacked basic navigation skills.

That seems to be the case. The MRT seemed to be saying they lacked
/appropriate/ navigational skills for the time and place..

I wonder if they had a GPS?

David.

Quoted message said:

I wonder if they had a GPS?

I would guess not, but one should be very wary of substituting
technology for experience. If you can't do without one then I'd
question whether it would be a good idea to be up there anyway.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Yes...

Mine let me down badly last night on Corstorphine Hill, and I had to
retire on the onset of hypothermia symptyoms. (orienteering)

Richard Webb

The message <[email hidden]>
from Peewiglet <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4 men who were found after a search in the Cairngorms had good
equipment but
poor navigational skills were a few miles from where they thought
they were.

Quoted message said:

Navigational mistakes happen, even to people trained in navigation who
were paying attention to what they were doing. The only way to avoid
them entirely is to stay in the house.

Quoted message said:

I don't think it's clear from the article (as it currently appears)
that they lacked basic navigation skills. Skills quite a lot more
sophisticated than that are required in those sorts of conditions. I'm
basically saying that I don't think we have nearly enough info to
start labelling them.

Given that the Mountain Rescue are usually loath to criticise those they
rescue "What they were unable to do was navigate and that's a basic
elemental skill that you should have going into hills in the winter" is
a pretty damning indictment. A mobile phone is not a substitute for map
and compass or even a GPS.

It is a pity that the article doesn't say where they were found.
Navigating from Macdui to Cairngorm is relatively straightforward and it
is difficult to see how they could have gone so wrong unless they made
an absolutely monumental blunder and ended up on Beinn Mheadhoin but
even that doesn't really warrant "a number of miles away". Derry
Cairngorm anyone?

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

(Richard Webb) said:

Mine let me down badly last night on Corstorphine Hill, and I had to
retire on the onset of hypothermia symptyoms. (orienteering)

At least I sent you through some warm spruce trees last weekend on
Kinnoull Hill :-)

Roos

Peewiglet said:

I'm
basically saying that I don't think we have nearly enough info to
start labelling them.

Hear , hear

As with many of these reports, the low quality of journalism leaves me
puzzled -

"They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
spending the night in survival bags."

Survival bags and not tents ?

"John Allen, of Cairngorm Mountain Rescue team, said: "This party had
decent equipment."

"Inspector Graham Gibb, of Braemar Mountain Rescue Team, who
co-ordinated the search, said the men were lucky to be alive.
..
..
If we had failed to find them. I don't think they could have survived
another night under the conditions that were forecast."

These comments appear to contradict themselves. The strong winds and
gales were widely forecast. I don't know what the forecast was for
Wednesday/Thursday but for Saturday MWIS says -1 feeling like -16 due
to wind chill. I don't consider that that is so unusual at this time
of year in Scotland, therefore they were badly equipped. The fact that
they were reduced to using survival bags rather than tents seems to
back that up.

Daytona

Rodders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

4 men who were found after a search in the Cairngorms had good equipment but
poor navigational skills were a few miles from where they thought they were.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4467894.stm

I heard that they called for help via a mobile phone, but there location
was being traced by triangulating from the phone masts.

Why on earth didn't they have a GPS?
--
Gordon Harris

Peter Clinch <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if they had a GPS?

I would guess not, but one should be very wary of substituting
technology for experience. If you can't do without one then I'd
question whether it would be a good idea to be up there anyway.

Pete.

Yes, but - they would have saved the MRT considerable time and effort,
and time could have been critical if they had been hypothermic.
--
Gordon Harris

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

"They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
spending the night in survival bags."

Quoted message said:

Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk? If it had been me I might not have even
had a survival bag. (OTOH I wouldn't have got lost).

Quoted message said:

"John Allen, of Cairngorm Mountain Rescue team, said: "This party had
decent equipment."

Quoted message said:

"Inspector Graham Gibb, of Braemar Mountain Rescue Team, who
co-ordinated the search, said the men were lucky to be alive.

Quoted message said:

If we had failed to find them. I don't think they could have survived
another night under the conditions that were forecast."

Quoted message said:

These comments appear to contradict themselves. The strong winds and
gales were widely forecast. I don't know what the forecast was for
Wednesday/Thursday but for Saturday MWIS says -1 feeling like -16 due
to wind chill. I don't consider that that is so unusual at this time
of year in Scotland, therefore they were badly equipped. The fact that
they were reduced to using survival bags rather than tents seems to
back that up.

I think you are barking up the wrong tree. Their problem was not lack of
equipment but lack of navigational ability. Sitting around waiting to be
rescued for another 24 hours with little or no food they would be more
at risk from hypothermia than if they had set off home when daylight
returned.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

"They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
spending the night in survival bags."

Quoted message said:

Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk?

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

Daytona

Daytona said:

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

"They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
spending the night in survival bags."

Quoted message said:

Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk?

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

Daytona

I think not. I *never* carry a tent on a day walk, whatever the
forecast and wherever I'm walking. And I've never known anyone who
does.
--

Paul Rooney

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 18:50:29 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Gordon <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Rodders <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

4 men who were found after a search in the Cairngorms had good equipment but
poor navigational skills were a few miles from where they thought they were.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/4467894.stm

I heard that they called for help via a mobile phone, but there location
was being traced by triangulating from the phone masts.

Why on earth didn't they have a GPS?

Because they chose not to?

I think the correct question should be "Why on earth did they have a
mobile phone?"

<g>

--
He was a big fellow, and there were a few bad backs.
[Langdale & Ambleside MRT callout report]

Paul Rooney said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk?

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

I think not. I *never* carry a tent on a day walk, whatever the
forecast and wherever I'm walking. And I've never known anyone who
does.

Same here. I could easily carry my Laser, but I'd be more inclined to
carry a bivi bag. I've bivvied in sub zero temps with no problems. The
important thing is a sleeping bag. A bivi and my Marmot would be a very
light combination, and I guess the Marmot would keep me alive if not exactly
warm in current conditions.

Paul

Roos Eisma said:

(Richard Webb) said:

Mine let me down badly last night on Corstorphine Hill, and I had to
retire on the onset of hypothermia symptyoms. (orienteering)

At least I sent you through some warm spruce trees last weekend on
Kinnoull Hill :-)

mmm!
They were suitably prickly - but I kept getting stuck in mazes of
windthrow.. What a lovely day.
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/81939

Hope we get one like that at Norman's Law.

Richard Webb

Quoted message said:

It is a pity that the article doesn't say where they were found.
Navigating from Macdui to Cairngorm is relatively straightforward and it
is difficult to see how they could have gone so wrong unless they made
an absolutely monumental blunder and ended up on Beinn Mheadhoin but
even that doesn't really warrant "a number of miles away". Derry
Cairngorm anyone?

I expect that the MRT there are a bit touchy of folk being reported
missing on the wrong hill after a certain high publicity rescue
involving a Cairngorm (Derry) MacDui mix up in the recent past.

http://bubl.ac.uk/org/tacit/tac/tac25/tvmagazi.htm

Richard Webb

Paul Saunders said:

But if they'd actually checked the forecast, they'd have had a pretty good
idea. The BBC forecast these conditions last Sunday.

The BBC (and others) did indeed forecast these conditions. The
predicted that they would arrive sometime around dawn on Thursday.
These walkers went out on Wednesday, before the weather turned. It
sounds from some reports like the conditions changed extremely
quickly.

Given the forecasts, and have had little hesitation going onto the
hills on Wednesday.

S.

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