Basic navigational skills badly missing

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk?

Quoted message said:

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

I think that remark says more about you than it does about me.

*shrugs* quote from one of those involved -

"As to being up there in when all week the forecast has warned [censored]
weather, perhaps first opertunity to bill individuals for rescue
costs.... heli £ 3400 per hour, guides/mic etc £120 each per day, MRTs
£100 per memeber etc (60 odd people involved searching). Anyone wnt to
comment? Mnt Insurance?

I reckon not the time but perhaps to get into the thick heads of those
not able to understand the weather forecast a hughe boot up their
respective wallets might work!!!!"

Daytona

Paul Saunders said:

By learning and practicing them? Just because you take a GPS, that doesn't
prevent you learning how to use a compass too. It's simply a matter of
choosing to do it.

Yes, but if you have 2 methods available, one of which is easy and the
other less so, then it's natural to choose the easier. Just like
those people who go walking with others who can navigate, and are
happy following them round all the time without navigating for
themselves.

Quoted message said:

I just hate the continuation of the myth that a compass is essential but a
GPS merely optional.

Well it is optional, as I don't have one yet!

But I agree, it would be an excellent way of learning compass work.
And indeed, map-work generally, which is IMHO harder to do well than
using either a compass or a GPS. The important thing is not knowing
which way you are going, but which way you should be going - there's
not much use walking off in exactly the direction you intend, if
you've chosen a route that involves a few hundred feet of unnecessary
descent and reascent, or which takes you over a cliff!

It's only when visibility is poor due to snow, fog, or night, that a
compass or GPS becomes essential.

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Mike <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:11:39 +0000, GSV Three Minds in a Can
<[email hidden]> wrote:

.. >Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
.. >person Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said
.. ><snip>
.. >
.. >>Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
.. >>people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout.
.. >
.. >Can =ANYONE= do 'traditional navigation' in a whiteout?

Yes.. me for one ... and I am sure many others lurking here .... and
why not ..?
Compass ... map .... watch ... and experience.

That assumes you know where you start from. If you don't, in a
whiteout, you am stuffed. In my book 'traditional navigation' starts
with triangulation to discover your position - maybe other people have
different books. 8>.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

In message <[email hidden]>, Simon Caldwell
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

By learning and practicing them? Just because you take a GPS, that doesn't
prevent you learning how to use a compass too. It's simply a matter of
choosing to do it.

Yes, but if you have 2 methods available, one of which is easy and the
other less so, then it's natural to choose the easier. Just like
those people who go walking with others who can navigate, and are
happy following them round all the time without navigating for
themselves.

I always make my less experienced companion do all the navigating - and
then annoy him by making corrections at a glance (he does not realise
I've spent several minutes the previous evening studying the map)
--
Martin Richardson
271/284 Munros - 4.5% to go 34/34 'Furths'- 0% to go
53/89 Donalds - 40% to go 493/1554 Marilyns - 67% to go
376/525 Hewitts - 28% to go (E=178/178; W=137/137; I=61/211)

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> Survival bags and not tents ?
>
>You carry a tent on a day walk?

Quoted message said:

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

I think that remark says more about you than it does about me.

Quoted message said:

*shrugs*

You can shrug all you like but you didn't answer my question. Do you or
do you not take a tent with you on a day walk?

Quoted message said:

quote from one of those involved -

Quoted message said:

"As to being up there in when all week the forecast has warned [censored]
weather, perhaps first opertunity to bill individuals for rescue
costs.... heli £ 3400 per hour, guides/mic etc £120 each per day, MRTs
£100 per memeber etc (60 odd people involved searching). Anyone wnt to
comment? Mnt Insurance?

Quoted message said:

I reckon not the time but perhaps to get into the thick heads of those
not able to understand the weather forecast a hughe boot up their
respective wallets might work!!!!"

How vitriolic, and about fellow Scots too. I shudder to think what would
have been said had the miscreants been English.

But really what has that got to do with the price of fish. We have proof
positive that the weather was not so bad as to defeat experienced
mountaineers.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

You can shrug all you like but you didn't answer my question. Do you or
do you not take a tent with you on a day walk?

Does *anyone* do that if they're not intending to camp out overnight?
They had - bivy bags, was it? Most people wouldn't even have that.
--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

.. >Can =ANYONE= do 'traditional navigation' in a whiteout?

Yes.. me for one ... and I am sure many others lurking here .... and
why not ..?
Compass ... map .... watch ... and experience.

Quoted message said:

That assumes you know where you start from. If you don't, in a
whiteout, you am stuffed. In my book 'traditional navigation' starts
with triangulation to discover your position - maybe other people have
different books. 8>.

But you should always know approximately where you are. Indeed if you
want a fix by triangulation (never ever been in that position myself)
ISTM that not only do you need to know where you are you also need to be
able to recognise the distant features you triangulate on. Whiteouts are
the extreme form of lack of visibility but it doesn't take much mist to
obscure distant features and if it is dark even if you can see a distant
feature it won't be recognisable with any certainty.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >> Survival bags and not tents ?
> >
> >You carry a tent on a day walk?

> A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

I think that remark says more about you than it does about me.

Quoted message said:

*shrugs*

You can shrug all you like but you didn't answer my question. Do you or
do you not take a tent with you on a day walk?

No.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

quote from one of those involved -

Quoted message said:

"As to being up there in when all week the forecast has warned [censored]
weather, perhaps first opertunity to bill individuals for rescue
costs.... heli £ 3400 per hour, guides/mic etc £120 each per day, MRTs
£100 per memeber etc (60 odd people involved searching). Anyone wnt to
comment? Mnt Insurance?

Quoted message said:

I reckon not the time but perhaps to get into the thick heads of those
not able to understand the weather forecast a hughe boot up their
respective wallets might work!!!!"

How vitriolic, and about fellow Scots too. I shudder to think what would
have been said had the miscreants been English.

But really what has that got to do with the price of fish.

They went into the environment ill equipped to survive for long in the
forecast conditions, resulting in the MRT call out. It wasn't because
they were lost. It wasn't because they suffered injury.

Daytona

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can shrug all you like but you didn't answer my question. Do you or
do you not take a tent with you on a day walk?

Quoted message said:

No.

Then why expect others to do so?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

quote from one of those involved -

Quoted message said:

"As to being up there in when all week the forecast has warned [censored]
weather, perhaps first opertunity to bill individuals for rescue
costs.... heli £ 3400 per hour, guides/mic etc £120 each per day, MRTs
£100 per memeber etc (60 odd people involved searching). Anyone wnt to
comment? Mnt Insurance?

Quoted message said:

I reckon not the time but perhaps to get into the thick heads of those
not able to understand the weather forecast a hughe boot up their
respective wallets might work!!!!"

How vitriolic, and about fellow Scots too. I shudder to think what would
have been said had the miscreants been English.

But really what has that got to do with the price of fish.

Quoted message said:

They went into the environment ill equipped to survive for long in the
forecast conditions, resulting in the MRT call out. It wasn't because
they were lost. It wasn't because they suffered injury.

Where did you get that from? Quotes from the BBC news report that
started us off:

"John Allen, of Cairngorm Mountain Rescue team, said: "This party had
decent equipment."

"What they were unable to do was navigate and that's a basic elemental
skill that you should have going into hills in the winter."

"In these conditions, navigation is absolutely essential."

All 3 quotations presumably from John Allen

"The men became lost as they descended Ben Macdui"

BBCs take on the subject but ISTM that they became lost on the summit on
Macdui judging by what has been said earlier about where they were
found.

"After being brought off the 4,300ft mountain, Mr Topp told the BBC: "It
just goes to show no matter how much you think you're experienced, you
never know what the weather is going to throw at you."

When all else fails blame the weather. :-)

And why did you cut this:

"We have proof positive that the weather was not so bad as to defeat
experienced mountaineers."

If they had been as experienced as they thought they were they wouldn't
have had any trouble getting off the hill. That they survived an
unexpected night out is to me ample proof they were adequately equiped.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

Roger said:

But you should always know approximately where you are.
Indeed if you want a fix by triangulation (never ever
been in that position myself) ISTM that not only do you
need to know where you are you also need to be able to
recognise the distant features you triangulate on.
Whiteouts are the extreme form of lack of visibility but
it doesn't take much mist to obscure distant features and
if it is dark even if you can see a distant feature it
won't be recognisable with any certainty.

I have assured myself with an 'Aspect of Slope' in these conditions. We had
walked too far in a whiteout and missed out 'junction' onto the next hill
due to some nasty cornice. Still had an idea where we had ended up and an
'Aspect of Slope' confirmed it.

--
Muzz
http://highlandmist.blogspot.com
http://www.geocities.com/tripdogmonkey/index.html

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 19:36:23 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Martin Richardson <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

In message <[email hidden]>, Simon Caldwell
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

By learning and practicing them? Just because you take a GPS, that doesn't
prevent you learning how to use a compass too. It's simply a matter of
choosing to do it.

Yes, but if you have 2 methods available, one of which is easy and the
other less so, then it's natural to choose the easier. Just like
those people who go walking with others who can navigate, and are
happy following them round all the time without navigating for
themselves.

I always make my less experienced companion do all the navigating - and
then annoy him by making corrections at a glance (he does not realise
I've spent several minutes the previous evening studying the map)

I like your mode of thought.

--
You have the right to remain silent.
Anything you say will be misquoted, then used against you.

[email hidden] said...

Quoted message said:

So many questions, so few answers. So many opinions.

And so easy to say what we'd have done in those circumstances even
though we don't know the full details. Isn't 20:20 hindsight wonderful.
--
To reply see 'from' in headers; lose the domain, and insert dots and @
where common sense dictates.

Bootlaces said:

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 17:14:00 +0000in
<news:[email hidden]>
Daytona <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

*shrugs* quote from one of those involved -

Which one?

Dunno, posting anonymously on Rockfax -
<URL:http://www.rockfax.com/forums/t.php?n=156500#2222094>

Daytona

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You can shrug all you like but you didn't answer my question. Do you or
do you not take a tent with you on a day walk?

Quoted message said:

No.

Then why expect others to do so?

Because they walk in different terrain and conditions to me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> quote from one of those involved -

> "As to being up there in when all week the forecast has warned [censored]
> weather, perhaps first opertunity to bill individuals for rescue
> costs.... heli £ 3400 per hour, guides/mic etc £120 each per day, MRTs
> £100 per memeber etc (60 odd people involved searching). Anyone wnt to
> comment? Mnt Insurance?

> I reckon not the time but perhaps to get into the thick heads of those
> not able to understand the weather forecast a hughe boot up their
> respective wallets might work!!!!"

How vitriolic, and about fellow Scots too. I shudder to think what would
have been said had the miscreants been English.

But really what has that got to do with the price of fish.

Quoted message said:

They went into the environment ill equipped to survive for long in the
forecast conditions, resulting in the MRT call out.

The BBC -

"Inspector Graham Gibb, of Braemar Mountain Rescue Team, who
co-ordinated the search, said the men were lucky to be alive.
..
..
If we had failed to find them. I don't think they could have survived
another night under the conditions that were forecast."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It wasn't because
they were lost. It wasn't because they suffered injury.

Where did you get that from?

One of MRT posting on
<URL:http://www.rockfax.com/forums/t.php?n=156500#2222094>

Quoted message said:

Quotes from the BBC news report that
started us off:

If you read the thread given above you'll see that there is a
difference of opinion with the BBC report. Other media sources also
give different information.

Quoted message said:

"John Allen, of Cairngorm Mountain Rescue team, said: "This party had
decent equipment."

"What they were unable to do was navigate and that's a basic elemental
skill that you should have going into hills in the winter."

"In these conditions, navigation is absolutely essential."

All 3 quotations presumably from John Allen

"The men became lost as they descended Ben Macdui"

BBCs take on the subject but ISTM that they became lost on the summit on
Macdui judging by what has been said earlier about where they were
found.

"After being brought off the 4,300ft mountain, Mr Topp told the BBC: "It
just goes to show no matter how much you think you're experienced, you
never know what the weather is going to throw at you."

When all else fails blame the weather. :-)

And why did you cut this:

"We have proof positive that the weather was not so bad as to defeat
experienced mountaineers."

Because you're talking about the MRT rather than those rescued. So why
did the MRT opt to extract this group ?

Quoted message said:

If they had been as experienced as they thought they were they wouldn't
have had any trouble getting off the hill. That they survived an
unexpected night out is to me ample proof they were adequately equiped.

That they had to call MRT and MRT opted to extract them and commented
-

"Inspector Graham Gibb, of Braemar Mountain Rescue Team, who
co-ordinated the search, said the men were lucky to be alive.
..
..
If we had failed to find them. I don't think they could have survived
another night under the conditions that were forecast."

Indicates to me that they were not properly equipped for the
conditions and their level of experience. I assume the MRTs operation
means that they could not have sat it out.

Daytona

Bootlaces said:

So many questions, so few answers. So many opinions.

and so many differing news reports.....

<g>

Daytona

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

snip

Quoted message said:

>You can shrug all you like but you didn't answer my question. Do you or
>do you not take a tent with you on a day walk?

Quoted message said:

No.

Then why expect others to do so?

Quoted message said:

Because they walk in different terrain and conditions to me.

Which should comprehensively disqualify you from giving advice on the subject.

snip

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It wasn't because
they were lost. It wasn't because they suffered injury.

Where did you get that from?

Quoted message said:

One of MRT posting on
<URL:http://www.rockfax.com/forums/t.php?n=156500#2222094>

I have now read that and and it is by no means as clear cut as you make
out. There is the suggestion from one source (the same anonymous one
that wanted to put a boot up their wallet) that they did in fact know
roughly where they were which was somewhere South of the summit of
Macdui. That of course begs the question of why they were there at the
end of the day rather back at their car.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quotes from the BBC news report that
started us off:

snip quotes

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When all else fails blame the weather. :-)

And why did you cut this:

"We have proof positive that the weather was not so bad as to defeat
experienced mountaineers."

Quoted message said:

Because you're talking about the MRT rather than those rescued. So why
did the MRT opt to extract this group ?

ISTM the MR had no choice but to respond to the SOS but the same
correspondent to Rockfax throws more light on why the MR seem so put
out:

"Glenmore lads found 'em to the south of Macdui summit, got three up to
walk out imediately, fourth was a little cold but eventually convinced
to walk out on his own two legs. Cairngorm and RAF team returned north
once all up and walking, Glenmore descended to meet up with Breamar team
via Hutchinsons hut with four cas and walked out. Vis poor on top, a
little windy and chilly. Chopper had a go but after a little scare ran
back to Lossie. Top effort from all espcialy Glenmore lodge instructors
who then had a major return jounrney back from Breamar.

He was also very critical of their lack of navigational skills while
reinforcing the point that they were not badly equipped:

"Fair comment, an accident is an accident, how ever, with the abundance
of skill work shops, courses, books on navigation common sense says if
you cann't navigate, work up to a full mountaineering trip, not just
pile in, then expect to get rescued the moment you feel the slightest
bit frightened. WHY couldn't they even tell which direction they were
faceing down hill untill they indicated the direction of the
wind..compasses?..Im anonymous as this damn system won't interface with
email correctly but... I was on the hill with all the other searchers
yesturday, Cairngorm had shut the access road up to the train, the
weather came in as forcast, some of you think we should just get on and
rescue individuals, an accident is an accident, fair enough, deliberilty
placeing yourself in danger without basic skills, no matter what
equipment is carried then expecting others to risk life and limb is
cinical and belittles those who defend the freedom to walk upon these
great hills.

There is also a suggestion that the weather forecast for Wednesday was
not at all bad with the real bad weather expected overnight by which
time they should have been off the hill and anonymous above suggests the
Thursday weather wasn't bad. " Vis poor on top, a little windy and
chilly."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If they had been as experienced as they thought they were they wouldn't
have had any trouble getting off the hill. That they survived an
unexpected night out is to me ample proof they were adequately equipped.

Quoted message said:

That they had to call MRT and MRT opted to extract them and commented

Quoted message said:

"Inspector Graham Gibb, of Braemar Mountain Rescue Team, who
co-ordinated the search, said the men were lucky to be alive.
..
..
If we had failed to find them. I don't think they could have survived
another night under the conditions that were forecast."

Quoted message said:

Indicates to me that they were not properly equipped for the
conditions and their level of experience. I assume the MRTs operation
means that they could not have sat it out.

That's your lack of experience talking. They could however have got up
off their arses and walked out without help. The only equipment they
were lacking was the mental equipment.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

Paul Sanders wrote (with reference to GPS and compass):

Quoted message said:

Yes, but if you have 2 methods available, one of which is easy and the
other less so, then it's natural to choose the easier

There's two ways to get from one side of the mountain to the other, and
the easiest is not necessarily to walk over the top but most of us do
it...

On a slightly less silly point, as an occasional group leader (for
school parties) I'm starting to wonder if carrying a GPS ought not to
be considered basic equipment along with the survival bag, rope etc we
lug. For the simple reason that, if we did get lost or got our location
wrong when summoning MR a perfeclty reasonable question would be "why
didn't you have a GPS in your bag to check your navigation against?".
And you know, a perfectly decent answer would *not* be "I was too damn
proud".

So we're going to get a gps unit and, certainly in winter it'll go in
the bag and it'll be used as others have suggested - when it seems
vital we're right, when traditional methods are too unreliable and to
have fun with at the end of the day comparing actual route to intended.

But for minute-to-minute navigation it'll still be map and compass.

Ken

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Indicates to me that they were not properly equipped for the
conditions and their level of experience. I assume the MRTs operation
means that they could not have sat it out.

That's your lack of experience talking. They could however have got up
off their arses and walked out without help. The only equipment they
were lacking was the mental equipment.

If they suspected that they didn't have the experience to walk out
from a hostile environment then it's common sense to me that they
should have equipped themselves to be able sit it out ie food,
shelter, warmth. People are different. They have different levels of
experience. They may be aware of their level of experience, they may
not. By exposing themselves to different conditions they increase
their experience however, they may only find the limit of their
experience when they're in trouble.

I simply don't believe it's as black and white as you picture it.

Daytona

In article <[email hidden]>, Daytona
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

If they suspected that they didn't have the experience to walk out
from a hostile environment then it's common sense

It is common sense not to go there in the first place if that is the
case.

Quoted message said:

to me that they
should have equipped themselves to be able sit it out ie food,
shelter, warmth.

Yes but not a tent. Even relatively light backpacking tents (which would
probably not survive bad conditions in the Cairngorms) are nearly 2kg
for two people. A decent mountain tent suited to high winds is more like
3+ kg for two.

On the other hand a group shelter / bothy bag weighs far less. My 2
person one is 425g and my 6-8 person one is 640g. They are well worth
the weight if out in a group with the chance of poor weather.

Carrying extra weight and bulk like that on a day trip makes it more
likely to be needed for that unplanned overnight stay!

--

Dominic Sexton

On Sat, 26 Nov 2005 23:37:50 +0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Daytona <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces said:

So many questions, so few answers. So many opinions.

and so many differing news reports.....

<g>

The wonders of the meedja.

--
It is worth noting two 'firsts' during this rescue. One: Our Landrover
overtook a Porsche (OK, so the Porsche was sliding backwards down
Kirkstone Pass on the snow at the time), and two: a number of team
members managed to walk uphill faster than the helicopter (it was having
great difficulty making progress into the wind and very poor
visibility). [Langdale and Ambleside MRT callout report]