Basic navigational skills badly missing

Rodders said:

4 men who were found after a search in the Cairngorms had good equipment but
poor navigational skills were a few miles from where they thought they were.

There was some discussion of this on one of the climbing forums, and a
couple of those involved in the rescue joined in. One person said
that the 4 walkers were not in fact 'lost' as claimed, in that they
were just below the summit of Ben Macdui, and knew all along that was
where they were. This is contrary to some press reports that they
thought they were on Cairngorm.

One possibility is that they took a wrong turn somewhere,
re-established their position, but were then overtaken by the bad
weather and decided (wrongly)nto bivvy rather than carry on down.

Another possibility is that they couldn't read a map and were totally
lost.

But from the facts known at the moment, I wouldn't want to say which
was more likely.

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk?

Quoted message said:

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

I think that remark says more about you than it does about me.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

Bootlaces said:

Quoted message said:

I heard that they called for help via a mobile phone, but there
location was being traced by triangulating from the phone masts.

Why on earth didn't they have a GPS?

Good point Gordon.

Now this is really stupid. They'd happily [censored] them off if they didn't take
a compass, but no GPS? No problem. The current tendency to [censored] off GPS in
favour of traditional navigation probably leads to a lot of people not
bothering with GPS. Yet a GPS would have given them their exact position
and possibly enabled to avoid the whole incident in the first place.

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout. Yet even
unskilled navigators would be able to ascertain their exact position with a
GPS. Of course, I'm not suggesting taking *only* a GPS.

Okay, I know there's the possibility of them not knowing how to use the GPS
either, typically by leaving it set to WGS84 instead of Ordnance Survey, but
even in that instance, they'd still have known their position accurate to
half a mile, which would have been a lot better than a few miles. The MRT
could even have asked them to check the datum and tell them to set it
correctly if it was wrong.

Quoted message said:

Because they chose not to?

This may be a valid point if they were skilled navigators, but they weren't.
And given the area they were walking in, and the expected conditions,
wouldn't it make sense to take every navigation aid available? They could
have left it switched off at the bottom of a rucksack if they chose to, but
it would have become extremely useful when their compass work failed them.

Quoted message said:

I think the correct question should be "Why on earth did they have a
mobile phone?"

Well I don't think there's any argument in this instance that carrying one
was of great benefit. In those conditions I see no good reason not to carry
a map, compass, GPS and mobile phone.

Paul

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 21:11:09 -0000
in <news:[email hidden]>
Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

Bootlaces wrote:

<->

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Because they chose not to?

This may be a valid point if they were skilled navigators, but they weren't.

See Simon's post re: meedja hyperbole.

--
Currently listening to "Ricochet" (Tangerine Dream)

Peter Clinch said:

Quoted message said:

I wonder if they had a GPS?

I would guess not, but one should be very wary of substituting
technology for experience.

No need to substitue anything. What's the harm in taking one in addition?

Paul

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
person Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout.

Can =ANYONE= do 'traditional navigation' in a whiteout? (Psychics
excepted!)??? I wouldn't be caught dead up a serious hill without a GPS
(and spare batteries) and if there were N of us I'd expect at least N/3
GPSs.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

Paul Saunders said:

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout. Yet even
unskilled navigators would be able to ascertain their exact position with a
GPS. Of course, I'm not suggesting taking *only* a GPS.

OK, so they presumably need a compass as back-up in case the batteries
fail in the GPS. But if they always take a GPS, how do they get the
skills needed to use a compass properly?

S.

--
Oppose ID cards and the database state - sign the pledge at
http://www.pledgebank.com/refuse

Simon Caldwell said:

Quoted message said:

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but
clearly some people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a
whiteout. Yet even unskilled navigators would be able to ascertain
their exact position with a GPS. Of course, I'm not suggesting
taking *only* a GPS.

OK, so they presumably need a compass as back-up in case the batteries
fail in the GPS.

I didn't suggest taking a compass as a backup, I was suggesting taking a GPS
as a backup, for those who prefer to do it the old way.

Quoted message said:

But if they always take a GPS, how do they get the
skills needed to use a compass properly?

By learning and practicing them? Just because you take a GPS, that doesn't
prevent you learning how to use a compass too. It's simply a matter of
choosing to do it. A GPS is an excellent aid to learning compass work.
Start by planning a route that you intend to follow with a compass, upload
it into your GPS, then set off, using the GPS to track your walk but not for
navigation. At the end of the day, you can check the track to see how
accurate your compass work was. Alternatively, if you get hopelessly lost,
then you can use the GPS to get you back on track.

Besides, they apparently didn't have good compass skills anyway, so a GPS
could only have been of benefit to them. Irrespective whether you can use a
compass or not, a GPS is an excellent extra to have if there's any
likelihood of navigation problems. Whether you choose to use it or keep it
as a back up is up to you. Whether you choose to learn to use a compass
properly is up to you. Obviously it's best to do both and carry both, to
give you the best of both worlds, but ultimately it's the user's choice.

I just hate the continuation of the myth that a compass is essential but a
GPS merely optional. Both are quite capable of being used exclusively, but
it's better to cover all the options by learning both and carrying both,
especially in a potentially challenging situation.

Paul

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You carry a tent on a day walk?

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

Daytona

Dont get this?

Why would anyone have a tent? Also given the typical winter storm
conditions up there, what use would a tent be?

Richard Webb

O

Quoted message said:

I think the correct question should be "Why on earth did they have a
mobile phone?"

Pehaps like me they have been recently conducting a house purchase and
job hunt.

Richard Webb

Paul Rooney <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Daytona said:

Roger said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from Daytona <[email hidden]> contains these words:

> "They raised the alarm by mobile phone on Thursday morning after
> spending the night in survival bags."

> Survival bags and not tents ?

You carry a tent on a day walk?

A stupid comparison when you take the weather forecast into account.

Daytona

I think not. I *never* carry a tent on a day walk, whatever the
forecast and wherever I'm walking. And I've never known anyone who
does.

Neither do I, but I never go out without my crocodile gun, and it seems
to keep them at bay. Haven't seen one in years....
--
Gordon Harris

Simon Caldwell <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Paul Saunders said:

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout. Yet even
unskilled navigators would be able to ascertain their exact position with a
GPS. Of course, I'm not suggesting taking *only* a GPS.

OK, so they presumably need a compass as back-up in case the batteries
fail in the GPS. But if they always take a GPS, how do they get the
skills needed to use a compass properly?

A GPS would be an excellent way of validating the accuracy of
traditional navigation, if only referred to at the end of the exercise.
;-)
--
Gordon Harris

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:51:03 GMT
in <news:[email hidden]>
Richard Webb <[email hidden]> wrote :

Quoted message said:

O

Quoted message said:

I think the correct question should be "Why on earth did they have a
mobile phone?"

Pehaps like me they have been recently conducting a house purchase and
job hunt.

Interesting <g> A telephone interview whilst in the early stages of
hypothermia?

I was thinking that they chose to take a mobile phone and chose to not
take a GPS...

--
Soon to be listening to "no more heroes"

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout.

Quoted message said:

Can =ANYONE= do 'traditional navigation' in a whiteout? (Psychics
excepted!)??? I wouldn't be caught dead up a serious hill without a GPS
(and spare batteries) and if there were N of us I'd expect at least N/3
GPSs.

So what did you do before GPSs were invented?

I once spend something like half an hour searching for the summit of
Carn Ban Mor in a whiteout and still got off the hill safely. And no I
didn't find it. I probably walked over it but even in the clear it is
impossible to identify a summit.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 62 summits
New - 28 (Marilyns 14, Nuttalls 5, Outlying Fells 10)
Repeats - 34 (Marilyns 16, Nuttalls 24, Wainwrights 12, Outlying Fells 0)

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:55:59 +0000, Gordon <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

OK, so they presumably need a compass as back-up in case the batteries
fail in the GPS. But if they always take a GPS, how do they get the
skills needed to use a compass properly?

A GPS would be an excellent way of validating the accuracy of
traditional navigation, if only referred to at the end of the exercise.
;-)

I find that having an endpoint coincident with the space in which I
left the car is usually a good way of checking my navigation ability!

Judith

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the
wonderful person Roger <[email hidden]> said

Quoted message said:

The message <[email hidden]>
from GSV Three Minds in a Can <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout.

Quoted message said:

Can =ANYONE= do 'traditional navigation' in a whiteout? (Psychics
excepted!)??? I wouldn't be caught dead up a serious hill without a GPS
(and spare batteries) and if there were N of us I'd expect at least N/3
GPSs.

So what did you do before GPSs were invented?

Stayed off hills in potential whiteout conditions. If caught, head
downhill using compass .. however I wouldn't dignify that with the term
'navigation'.

--
GSV Three Minds in a Can
Contact recommends the use of Firefox; SC recommends it at gunpoint.

"GSV Three Minds in a Can" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful person
Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout.

Can =ANYONE= do 'traditional navigation' in a whiteout? (Psychics
excepted!)??? I wouldn't be caught dead up a serious hill without a GPS
(and spare batteries) and if there were N of us I'd expect at least N/3
GPSs.

I learnt this essential skill at Glenmore Lodge - and yes, I've had to do
it. But then GPS's weren't available. . .

druidh

Quoted message said:

So what did you do before GPSs were invented?

And what did sailors do before radar, HF radio, liferafts, lifejackets etc?
Many hit rocks, died from hypothermia, drown from being unable to stay
afloat. Many case was not bad navigation or seamanship skills, just pure
bad luck. If the technology is there, what is the problem with using
it/having it available as back up for emergency?

Would you consider having your central heating, lighting, gas/electric
cooker removed? Collect peat every day and make candles from animal fat? I
suspect not, we have accepted the move from the 'basic' way of life of our
forefathers.

--
sandy saunders @ www.thewalkzone.co.uk
email: saunders.sandy at ntlworld.com

'Mountains or Mole Hills ... summiting still
brings the same excitement'

"Paul Saunders" <[email hidden]> wrote

.......In those conditions I see no good reason not to carry

Quoted message said:

a map, compass, GPS and mobile phone.

Paul

Why not. If you can sfford the gps unit it might as well be in the rucksack
along with the mobile that everyone seems to have these days. I still feel
having a gps takes the edge off your navigating ability and like Roger I
feel you could dump me on top of any mountain in a whiteout and i would get
back down somehow...perhaps later than would have been the case if i'd have
a gps, but I'd still get back. However, that's no reason not to include it
as an aid to navigation.

Those of us who have learnt to navigate with only map and compass should
feel blessed! There is definately a feeling of being in touch with your
surroundings that is almost spiritual. On my last trip to the Arctic I was
with a bunch of kids travelling over an ice cap in a whiteout, casually
glancing at the map until i reached a point where I knew I'd totally lost my
position. I got the gps out, replotted my position and set off on the new
bearing arriving at my intended detination without anyone knowing what had
gone on. The fact is, I took my eye off the ball knowing I had the gps as
backup. Not sure that was a good thing.

Graham

On Fri, 25 Nov 2005 22:11:39 +0000, GSV Three Minds in a Can
<[email hidden]> wrote:

... >Bitstring <[email hidden]>, from the wonderful
... >person Paul Saunders <[email hidden]> said
... ><snip>
... >
... >>Traditional navigation is all very well if you can do it, but clearly some
... >>people aren't that skilled at it, especially in a whiteout.
... >
... >Can =ANYONE= do 'traditional navigation' in a whiteout?

Yes.. me for one ... and I am sure many others lurking here .... and
why not ..?
Compass ... map .... watch ... and experience.

I do have a recently bought GPS, but I would never rely on that to get
me off the hill ... too many things to go wrong with it.

Mike