Backpacking Kit

"http://www.thehelmets.co.uk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...and what happens if something happens and you're stuck out in the
dark... i.e. get lost / have an accident

I quite agree. I am astonished by the total reliance some people put on a
small piece of (good) technology which depends on good reception, a
battery and not being dropped and damaged or lost.

As a Peak District ranger I am staggered by the number of people who
take to the hills with nothing but a GPS, and then get lost because it has
stopped working for some reason.

This ranks alongside climbing Helvellyn in sandals and T-shirt.

Nick Wagg said:

"http://www.thehelmets.co.uk" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

...and what happens if something happens and you're stuck out in the
dark... i.e. get lost / have an accident

I quite agree. I am astonished by the total reliance some people put on a
small piece of (good) technology which depends on good reception, a
battery and not being dropped and damaged or lost.

As a Peak District ranger I am staggered by the number of people who
take to the hills with nothing but a GPS, and then get lost because it has
stopped working for some reason.

Who mentioned GPS? I think we were talking about torches. The primary
use of a torch in mountain rescue is for signalling. Since I almost
always have my camera with me I can use the flash on that.

For finding out what has happened to the tent on a wild and windy
night I can see a couple of feet with my Timex Indiglo watch light and
that is all I need to find a guy that has come out and I always have a
spare peg to hand if one does manage to get lost in the dark.

Quoted message said:

This ranks alongside climbing Helvellyn in sandals and T-shirt.

I've walked up Lochnagar and done a round of the White Mounth munros
in sandals and a T-shirt. OK so I had waterproofs and a fleece in my
bag, but you get the idea.

--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

Apolgies for this post appearing umpteen times - I don't know why - IO
error?

Maybe tape two indiglo watches to the front bumper of your car for
cheap, but ever so trendy, fog lights too!

It's like a Viz Top Tip this topic!

In article <[email hidden]>,
"http://www.thehelmets.co.uk" <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Apolgies for this post appearing umpteen times - I don't know why - IO
error?

back-up maybe :-)
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Who mentioned GPS? I think we were talking about torches. The primary
use of a torch in mountain rescue is for signalling. Since I almost
always have my camera with me I can use the flash on that.

I wonder if you're arguing for the sake of it Phil !

You wouldn't be allowed to enter the various events run by the MRT
without Essential kit". Even thought these are day-time events a torch
is a requirement.

There is one event on Saturday - the Black Mouintains Roundabout. A 25
mile walk in the Black Mountains starting from Crick Howell.

Later in the year is the Talybont Trial - a 20 mile trek in the Talybont
area.
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

W. D. Grey said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Who mentioned GPS? I think we were talking about torches. The primary
use of a torch in mountain rescue is for signalling. Since I almost
always have my camera with me I can use the flash on that.

I wonder if you're arguing for the sake of it Phil !

Oh yes I am arguing for the sake of it. But the whole point of
lightening backpacking gear by throwing out non essential kit is to
say, "Do I actually NEED this or am I taking it along just in case?"

Quoted message said:

You wouldn't be allowed to enter the various events run by the MRT
without Essential kit". Even thought these are day-time events a torch
is a requirement.

Events? Who said anything about events? I thought this was summer
backpacking in Scotland.

--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the "Westminster Gasworks"

In article <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Events? Who said anything about events? I thought this was summer
backpacking in Scotland.

Events or summer backpacking in Scotland, it matters not -one would be
out in the wilds either way.

It was to amplify a point made by another poster. There is far less
likelihood of someone needing a torch on these walks(events) that
someone backpacking.

I was sort of querying the need for a torch (in the rules) on the
events. I do think that a small torch could be important on a
backpacking trip. Weight reduction is important but let's not get
paranoid about it to the point of leaving behind something which could
prove necessary rather than just handy.

If you find your watch adequate then OK, someone else might feel the
presence of a torch more beneficial.

--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, Phil Cook
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Events? Who said anything about events? I thought this was summer
backpacking in Scotland.

I did Phil - they're fund raising events for the Brecon Mountain Rescue
Team, and I can't miss a chance to advertise :-)
--
Bill Grey
http://www.billboy.co.uk

Phil Cook said:

Nick Wagg said:

This ranks alongside climbing Helvellyn in sandals and T-shirt.

Quoted message said:

I've walked up Lochnagar and done a round of the White Mounth munros
in sandals and a T-shirt. OK so I had waterproofs and a fleece in my
bag, but you get the idea.

I've recently descended the worst 500m scree slopes I've so far come
across and walked through 10cm of snow in sandals amongst other things.
People ask you if your feet are cold but look at you blankly if you
reply "Yes, can I stuff them up your nice warm down jacket for a bit
please?"

Phil Cook said:

Oh yes I am arguing for the sake of it. But the whole point of
lightening backpacking gear by throwing out non essential kit is to
say, "Do I actually NEED this or am I taking it along just in case?"

Quite. I gave up carrying a relatively heavy old & bulky Petzl Zoom
because it was certainly never NEEDED nor even likely to be WANTED. But
since the much lighter and smaller LED torches came out I figure the
weight penalty for taking one of those along has tipped the balance the
other way and always pop one in. Came in handy for exploring some
really cool caves recently.

Do you bother with a first aid kit or survival bag?
I've certainly never NEEDED either of them I never WANTED to carry
them....

urlhttp://www.thehelmets.co.uk/url said:

Do you bother with a first aid kit or survival bag?
I've certainly never NEEDED either of them I never WANTED to carry
them....

It depends. I have both but whether I take them depends on what, where,
when and how long for. If there's more than one of me I think a group
shelter is far more use than a bivvi-bag and it is often actively useful
in standard use with no emergencies.

Key point about 1st aid kits is they're really about comfort, not saving
lives. Most of what's needed to save lives is action and priorities
more than Stuff, and for typical FAK contents the Stuff can be
improvised. They can certainly be useful but the way some people act
like you're Doomed without one is frankly a Bit Silly.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

Pete - the point I'm making is not about the specific peice of kit
(bothy bag/survival bag etc.) .... the point is you don't want to carry
this kit (who wants to carry anything!) ... but you do (or should)
simply becuase you do NOT know what's going to happen. If you can
guarantee that you will not need a survival bag (bothy bag etc) then
fine, don't take one. but can you? Not on a days walk in
scotland/lakes/ etc. because no matter what happens you can get lost,
the weather can change, you can slip and break an arm etc etc etc

urlhttp://www.thehelmets.co.uk/url said:

Pete - the point I'm making is not about the specific peice of kit
(bothy bag/survival bag etc.) .... the point is you don't want to carry
this kit (who wants to carry anything!) ... but you do (or should)
simply becuase you do NOT know what's going to happen. If you can
guarantee that you will not need a survival bag (bothy bag etc) then
fine, don't take one. but can you?

No I can't. But OTOH I can't guarantee that all sorts of ghastly things
won't happen to me in any place. Do I install crash-mats at the bottom
of my house's stairs because I can't guarantee I won't be one of the
many people killed in trips and falls in benign environments? No,
because experience tells me (and pretty much everyone else) it isn't
worth it.

Quoted message said:

Not on a days walk in
scotland/lakes/ etc. because no matter what happens you can get lost,
the weather can change, you can slip and break an arm etc etc etc

You have to take the actual level of risk into account, or your daily
life will have to be dominated by all sorts of ridiculous precautions.
It's actually fairly absurd to say you /must/ carry a survival bag and
FAK walking in Scotland, period, because lots of people don't and
practically all live to tell the tale. The degree to which you need to
ask yourself "what if?" changes a great deal with what you're doing,
when and where.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

do you bother with a first aid kit or survival bag?

I've never NEEDED either of them, and certainly don't WANT to carry
them....

I take it you don't bother wearing a seatbelt when travelling on a
motorway,as they are , statistically, the safest type of road to travel
on?
(Que quotes about the legality of seatbelts)

You still miss the point. YES, the vast majority of people to get back
from a days walking in scotland without incident.

If it was dangerous then a lot of people simply would not do it.

The point is... and I'll say this once more.... you don't know what's
going to happen on top of that mountain, and you need to be prepared.

I have quoted them once before, and I'll quote them again. Read here:
http://www.lamrt.org.uk/staysafe.html

They, obviously, see the bad side of a day in the mountains. the people
who (usually) need help becuase of an accident/stupidity/bad luck/
whatever.
LAMRT obviously think it is prudent to carry such BASIC equipment as a
torch and a survival bag (or bothy bag etc.) and frankly, if you don't
then that's fine - It's unlikely you'll ever be relying on me to rescue
you if you were unfortunate enough to require it.
It must however be frustrating for those chaps to go and pick bodies up
from mountains simply becuase they can't be chewed with the basics.

The sooner it becomes compulsary to have insurance on the mountains the
better - with a bit ogf luck this will (a) enable better funded MRT's
and (b) compel people to carry the correct kit
(http://www.lamrt.org.uk/staysafe.html) or face the financial
consequences.

urlhttp://www.thehelmets.co.uk/url said:

I take it you don't bother wearing a seatbelt when travelling on a
motorway,as they are , statistically, the safest type of road to travel
on?
(Que quotes about the legality of seatbelts)

No, I've always worn seatbelts because of habit, which is often why I
carry various bits of gear too. But when I was younger and rear
seatbelts didn't exist I always travelled unbelted, and in cars that
were considerably less safe than today's. And despite that, I'm still
okay. A little realised fact about seatbelts is they haven't actually
made much difference to overall casualties, because drivers have tended
to compensate for the benefits and drive worse (see Reinhardt-Rutland A
H. Seat-belts and behavioural adaptation. Safety Sci 2001; 39: 145-155.)

Quoted message said:

The point is... and I'll say this once more.... you don't know what's
going to happen on top of that mountain, and you need to be prepared.

But *exactly* the same argument can be applied to all sorts of other day
to day situations, yet despite similar risks you're not taking such
elaborate precautions for them. Since the same argument can logically
be applied to hillwalking as well as numerous other situations, if you
don't apply it elsewhere it's a case of double standards, or rather
emotion over logic.

Quoted message said:

I have quoted them once before, and I'll quote them again. Read here:
http://www.lamrt.org.uk/staysafe.html

There is all sorts of advice from experienced individuals which is
routinely broken by other experienced individuals and that isn't really
frowned upon. Much good advice is lowest common denominator stuff and
little of it is, or even can be, particularly context sensitive. If I
park at Glen Muick apparently I'm in just as much danger and need the
same kit if I have a dander round the loch as if I go and solo Eagle
Ridge, which is ridiculous.

Quoted message said:

The sooner it becomes compulsary to have insurance on the mountains the
better

Sorry, but this is Complete Bollocks. The hills are about freedom, not
contributory negligence claims for not carrying prescribed kit. And I
think you'll find that most MRTs would not want compulsory insurance
either. I know quite a few folk in MRTs and I can't see any of them
being for it.

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email hidden] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

The message <[email hidden]>
from "http://www.thehelmets.co.uk" <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Do you bother with a first aid kit or survival bag?
I've certainly never NEEDED either of them I never WANTED to carry
them....

A first aid kit is only of use if you have an appropriate injury *and*
know how to use it. I have occasionally carried a packet of plasters but
never anything more.

I bought a space blanket when they first came out. That stayed unused in
my sack until it died of old age. I didn't replace it. I carried a bivvy
bag only when I intended to use it overnight. OTOH I almost invariably
carry a spare sweater (the same one over the last 30 years or more) and
in over 50 years of hillwalking I can't recall a single instance when I
actually used it.

--
Roger Chapman

http://www.thehelmets.co.uk said:

The point is... and I'll say this once more.... you don't know what's
going to happen on top of that mountain, and you need to be prepared.

Yes, but what "prepared" means is something that needs to be decided on
based on the planned trip, the terrain, the weather, the group, etcetera.
You balance what you can carry without spoiling the trip, what you are
likely to need (with some arbitrary cutoff point for likelyhood), how
essential it is to have it if you need it or whether it can be replaced by
something you have anyway, etcetera.
Not all trips go to the top of that mountain, not all trips are hours away
from help, not all situations where you would have liked a piece of kit
but haven't got it are deadly.

Our last walk last week was a low level coastal walk near Gairloch. Yes,
there was opportunity to break an ankle, but the other could probably
have run back to get help in an hour or so, it was cold but not that cold,
and in a sheltered spot with all our spare clothes on the victim would be
very unlikely to die of hypothermia before help arrived. They may have
been a bit more comfortable in a survival bag, (and probably more
comfortable in a tent with a nice sleeping bag🙂 but was it essential?
A couple of days before on a ski tour of the Carngorm plateau we did carry
a lot more stuff, including first aid, shelter, and avalanche related
stuff, because that is what "prepared" meant in those conditions.

Roos