Attacking hills

What about your knees? You don't sound like a teen....

he black rose wrote:
|| Well, now I'm a little intimidated by the guy who posted a thread
|| asking how to increase speed. Cuz I wanted to post a long dreamy
|| note about my experiences with attacking hills this morning as a
|| means of increasing my speed (I googled and found some posts
|| recommending this). But my average speed is 14-15 mph on a
|| reasonably flat road, and that guy is doing 17-18 on rolling hills.
|| (I do NOT want admit what my average speed on rolling hills is!)
|| Now, granted, he's probably riding a road bike, and I'm still
|| chugging along on my ridiculously heavy hybrid (when, oh WHEN are
|| the 2005's coming in! *cry*); he's been riding, um, "over the last
|| year," and I've only been at this 2 months; and I'm guessing he's
|| considerably younger than I am.
||
|| So it is with great trepidation that timidly report that I was able
|| to get up hills at least 50% faster by attacking them, some of them
|| 100% faster, and increased my average speed for the entire ride by
|| 1.3 mi/hr (around 16 miles). This is a HUGE improvement for me.
|| These were all rolling hills, not too big, all preceded by a nice
|| downhill to gather speed -- what I did was stay in the big gear I'd
|| been in on the downhill and stand up to dance on the pedals as long
|| as I could take it without downshifting. This got me at least
|| halfway up most of them before I'd have to back off a little, sit
|| back in the saddle and downshift. This got me up all but one hill
|| on the large chainring; the one I couldn't manage, I only dropped to
|| the middle chainring. I was blowing pretty hard at the tops of the
|| hills, but I made them in what was for me record time. I was
|| psyched.
||
|| Before some of you jump all over me, yes, I know how to downshift on
|| a hill, and no, I didn't do any cross-chaining. I don't want to
|| wear down the teeth on my chainrings and cogs prematurely. Yada
|| yada. Standard disclaimers apply. Etc etc etc. ;-)
||
|| I am quite pleased with these results. I'm definitely going to
|| continue attacking hills and see what kind of progress I can make.
||
|| -km
||
|| --
|| the black rose
|| proud to be owned by a yorkie
|| http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

"the black rose" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Well, now I'm a little intimidated by the guy who posted a thread asking
how to increase speed. Cuz I wanted to post a long dreamy note about my
experiences with attacking hills this morning as a means of increasing

<big snip>

Quoted message said:

the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

I was one of the first to reply to that guy about increasing average speed
and I, after reading your post, I thought to myself ... dang ... how could I
have forgotten that.

Seriously, the first big leap in my average speed after I got into cycling
came after I did some weight training over the winter and then came out
attacking all the small hills the following Spring. I'm not a big fan of
major weight training programs for cycling. Mostly, I think you're better
off doing your work on the bike. But a winter's worth of weights made all
the small hills I used to dread nearly disappear the following Spring
actually did catapult me from being a mid-pack club rider to being one that
hangs at the front most of the time.

But a word of caution. I said I used weights to achieve that. The catch 22
is that, with weights, you build muscle mass without the capillary system to
support the efficient removal of lactic acid. Take these legs that can
hammer the small hills and go on a major, sustained climb and their clogged
with lactic acid in no time. After the weights helped get me over the
hurdle of the smaller hills, I steered clear of them to improve my sustained
climbing in the longer run.

But you're right on, black rose.

Bob C.

Roger Zoul said:

What about your knees? You don't sound like a teen....

My knees are in pretty good shape. One knee took a knock in an auto
accident (shattered a dashboard) 30 years ago, but except for an ugly
scar and a tendency to forecast the weather, it's holding up as well as
the other.

-km

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

Not downshifting and grinding up every hill in site is what keeps Ulrich
on the lower steps of the podium every year and completely off it this
year.

Take some advice from Carmichael<Sp?> (via Lance Armstrong and the rest
of the team), downshift and spin on the hills.

- -

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

the black rose wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||| What about your knees? You don't sound like a teen....
||
|| My knees are in pretty good shape. One knee took a knock in an auto
|| accident (shattered a dashboard) 30 years ago, but except for an ugly
|| scar and a tendency to forecast the weather, it's holding up as well
|| as the other.

I was concerned because I have read in many places that cracking up hills in
higher gear can result in knee problems (one of the two major causes, so I
hear). Also, in the 2004 TdF, it seemed obvious that LA's style results in
overall better ability than does Jan Ullrich's style (the former uses lower
gears and the latter works in higher gears). That's all.

On Mon, 26 Jul 2004 19:27:50 -0400, [email hidden] (Chris

Zacho 'The Wheelman') said:

Not downshifting and grinding up every hill in site is what keeps Ulrich
on the lower steps of the podium every year and completely off it this
year.

Take some advice from Carmichael<Sp?> (via Lance Armstrong and the rest
of the team), downshift and spin on the hills.

Though I'm just a recreational rider, the more I spin, the more I like
it, and the better (IMO) I get. I think one of the top three or four
mistakes ppl make is pedalling too slowly, and in too hard a gear.

If you become accustomed to pedalling 90rpm-ish, it makes shifting
work more smoothly, and you can accelerate more easily, keeping out of
trouble spots.

-B

Quoted message said:

"May you have the wind at your back.
And a really low gear for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner
http://www.geocities.com/czcorner

Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman said:

Not downshifting and grinding up every hill in site is what keeps Ulrich
on the lower steps of the podium every year and completely off it this
year.

Take some advice from Carmichael<Sp?> (via Lance Armstrong and the rest
of the team), downshift and spin on the hills.

Spinning's good advice for the longer hills, but you might as well
just blast over the rollers. It's excellent interval work. Small
ring for the climbs, big ring for the rollers. Before you know it,
some of those climbs will start looking like rollers.
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

Roger Zoul said:

the black rose wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||| What about your knees? You don't sound like a teen....
||
|| My knees are in pretty good shape. One knee took a knock in an auto
|| accident (shattered a dashboard) 30 years ago, but except for an ugly
|| scar and a tendency to forecast the weather, it's holding up as well
|| as the other.

I was concerned because I have read in many places that cracking up hills in
higher gear can result in knee problems (one of the two major causes, so I
hear). Also, in the 2004 TdF, it seemed obvious that LA's style results in
overall better ability than does Jan Ullrich's style (the former uses lower
gears and the latter works in higher gears). That's all.

My unscientific guess is that a moderate amount of that high-gear attack
does no harm at all, and probably does some good. In general, the body
seems to respond well to moderate stress followed by recovery time.
That's how it builds strength. Grinding high gears all the time might
be much different.

So I think "rose's" technique is fine, plus a lot more fun. I do it
every chance I get, and my knees do better when I ride more. (But I'll
bet "rose's" look better! ;-)

--
--------------------+
Frank Krygowski [To reply, remove rodent and vegetable dot com,
replace with cc.ysu dot edu]

If you aren't on flat terrain, your climbing speed has a much larger
effect on your average speed than your flat or descending speed - the
slower you climb, the more time you spend per ride riding slowly up
hills. Your downhill speed is largely determined by the slope of the
hill, and your flat speed won't vary too much (except with different
wind conditions). So climbing faster is the easiest way to boost
average speed. Your method for attacking the hill is better than not
attacking, but racers know that the proper way to attack the hill is
to stay in the saddle as long as possible - you want to stay tucked as
you start to decelerate at the beginning of the slope, and start a
moderate (75% power) spin to keep your speed as high as possible as
far up the hill as you can. Work your way down through your gears as
you decelerate. Only get out of the saddle if your speed drops below
12 mph. You will also gain a huge boost on rolling hills if you get
back in the saddle and spin your way over the top of the hill - you
should start your acceleration as soon as the hill's slope starts to
decrease. This is the place to apply maximum power, not at the bottom
or in the middle. An increase in speed over the top will get you up
to your maximum descending speed as quickly as possible. Then you
can rest until you bottom out, then start the cycle all over again.
This is harder work than you may be used to, but it will dramatically
increase your speed. Or, don't worry so much about how fast you go,
and enjoy the scenery. Good Luck!

Mort

spithe black rose <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Well, now I'm a little intimidated by the guy who posted a thread asking
how to increase speed. Cuz I wanted to post a long dreamy note about my
experiences with attacking hills this morning as a means of increasing
my speed

I am quite pleased with these results. I'm definitely going to continue
attacking hills and see what kind of progress I can make.

-km

Roger Zoul said:

the black rose wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||| What about your knees? You don't sound like a teen....
||
|| My knees are in pretty good shape. One knee took a knock in an auto
|| accident (shattered a dashboard) 30 years ago, but except for an ugly
|| scar and a tendency to forecast the weather, it's holding up as well
|| as the other.

I was concerned because I have read in many places that cracking up hills in
higher gear can result in knee problems (one of the two major causes, so I
hear). Also, in the 2004 TdF, it seemed obvious that LA's style results in
overall better ability than does Jan Ullrich's style (the former uses lower
gears and the latter works in higher gears). That's all.

I've read the same thing, but I've also seen it taken to extremes. I
passed (and was passed by) one rider on a century who would stand on
the pedals as soon as a hill flattened, but show her any kind of grade
uphill, and she'd gear down - apparently all the way down to her
granny - and spin like crazy. And these were short, easy hills --
maybe 4% for 100-200 yards.

Never did figure out how her knees allowed her to stand up...

Pat

Email address works as is.

Quoted message said:

I've read the same thing, but I've also seen it taken to extremes. I
passed (and was passed by) one rider on a century who would stand on
the pedals as soon as a hill flattened, but show her any kind of grade
uphill, and she'd gear down - apparently all the way down to her
granny - and spin like crazy. And these were short, easy hills --
maybe 4% for 100-200 yards.

Never did figure out how her knees allowed her to stand up...

Pat

If I am taking your meaning right, I can explain what you saw. When I do it
right, I have to lean 'way forward so that I am using my entire body weight
on the pedals. If you do it wrong, you burn up your quads so fast it isn't
funny! but, if you manage the gears so that the effort is tough AND you
stand and lean forward, it actually isn't so bad. I once stood up for 200
pedal strokes. I had my single speed bike and the hill was short but steep
and I was determined to get up to the top without sitting back down. When
it got too tough to pedal sitting down, I literally threw my weight up and
forward.

Pat in TX

Quoted message said:

Spinning's good advice for the longer hills, but you might as well
just blast over the rollers. It's excellent interval work. Small
ring for the climbs, big ring for the rollers. Before you know it,
some of those climbs will start looking like rollers.

Good advice. But I have noticed that what passes for "rollers" varys with
topography. I was on a tour in Colorado and I noted that what people called
"rollers" on that tour made my ears pop as I climbed them. To me, anything
that has enough altitude change to cause one's ear to pop is at least a "hill".

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

I've read the same thing, but I've also seen it taken to extremes. I
passed (and was passed by) one rider on a century who would stand on
the pedals as soon as a hill flattened, but show her any kind of grade
uphill, and she'd gear down - apparently all the way down to her
granny - and spin like crazy. And these were short, easy hills --
maybe 4% for 100-200 yards.

Never did figure out how her knees allowed her to stand up...

Pat

If I am taking your meaning right, I can explain what you saw. When I do it
right, I have to lean 'way forward so that I am using my entire body weight
on the pedals. If you do it wrong, you burn up your quads so fast it isn't
funny! but, if you manage the gears so that the effort is tough AND you
stand and lean forward, it actually isn't so bad. I once stood up for 200
pedal strokes. I had my single speed bike and the hill was short but steep
and I was determined to get up to the top without sitting back down. When
it got too tough to pedal sitting down, I literally threw my weight up and
forward.

Cool! I wasn't able to make it to the top of any but one hill standing
on the pedals, but I could definitely feel that my knees were taking
less stress when I was standing on the pedals than when I sat back down,
but then, when I'm standing on the pedals I'm also upright and leaning
forward. Every hill, my lungs were giving out before my legs were. My
next goal with the hill attacks is to extend the distance I can get up
them before my lungs give out.

-km

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

the black rose said:

Pat said:

Quoted message said:

I've read the same thing, but I've also seen it taken to extremes. I
passed (and was passed by) one rider on a century who would stand on
the pedals as soon as a hill flattened, but show her any kind of grade
uphill, and she'd gear down - apparently all the way down to her
granny - and spin like crazy. And these were short, easy hills --
maybe 4% for 100-200 yards.

Never did figure out how her knees allowed her to stand up...

Pat

If I am taking your meaning right, I can explain what you saw. When I do it
right, I have to lean 'way forward so that I am using my entire body weight
on the pedals. If you do it wrong, you burn up your quads so fast it isn't
funny! but, if you manage the gears so that the effort is tough AND you
stand and lean forward, it actually isn't so bad. I once stood up for 200
pedal strokes. I had my single speed bike and the hill was short but steep
and I was determined to get up to the top without sitting back down. When
it got too tough to pedal sitting down, I literally threw my weight up and
forward.

Cool! I wasn't able to make it to the top of any but one hill standing
on the pedals, but I could definitely feel that my knees were taking
less stress when I was standing on the pedals than when I sat back down,
but then, when I'm standing on the pedals I'm also upright and leaning
forward. Every hill, my lungs were giving out before my legs were. My
next goal with the hill attacks is to extend the distance I can get up
them before my lungs give out.

-km

If you're cautious and traffic is low, you can use a slalom technique and
get up those hills. Instead of pedalling straight up the 'fall line', you
just go from edge to edge and turn. It takes longer, but the pitch is not
as steep.

Again, be very carefull about cars, since you're going into the opposite
lane. On one hill in my area, a dead end street, I can tell easily by sight
and sound that there are no cars, and I use this technique. As you get
stronger, your slalom gets narrower until you can eventually climb straight
up.

Another technique is to find a mild hill, but one that goes for say 1/4
mile or less. Then do repeats until the quads are well-worked. If you
'work' on this mild incline for a week or two, you'll soon be breezing up
it and then other, harder hills are not as difficult since you've built up
technique, rpm, and improved lactic acid handling. You need not just
stronger quads, but increased vascularity. Some ppl think you actually
increase the number of mitochondria in your cells (energy producing
organelles) with such training.

-B

the black rose <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Cool! I wasn't able to make it to the top of any but one hill standing
on the pedals, but I could definitely feel that my knees were taking
less stress when I was standing on the pedals than when I sat back down,
but then, when I'm standing on the pedals I'm also upright and leaning
forward. Every hill, my lungs were giving out before my legs were.

Sounds like a fitness issue. Just keep practicing and you will improve
quickly.

Don't lean too far forward. Try to balance your weight 50-50 between the
front and back wheels. Too much weight on the front tire just increases
rolling resistance.

"Ken" wrote: (clip) Don't lean too far forward. Try to balance your
weight 50-50 between the front and back wheels. Too much weight on the
front tire just increases rolling resistance.
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Seems to me that on a REALLY steep hill, your rolling resistance is the
least of your worries. Consider, also, that as the angle of climb
increases, your weight shifts to the rear wheel, to the point where the
front wheel can start to lift with each pedal stroke. Standing up not only
increases your pedalling strength, but also helps keep the front end down.
(I have never experienced this on paved roads, but it is not uncommon on
trails.)

Ken said:

the black rose <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Cool! I wasn't able to make it to the top of any but one hill standing
on the pedals, but I could definitely feel that my knees were taking
less stress when I was standing on the pedals than when I sat back down,
but then, when I'm standing on the pedals I'm also upright and leaning
forward. Every hill, my lungs were giving out before my legs were.

Sounds like a fitness issue. Just keep practicing and you will improve
quickly.

Well yes. I've only been at this for two months.

But it's also a lung issue. I've had a complete pulmonary function
workup. My lung capacity and flow rates are normal, but my gas exchange
values are abnormal -- IOW, the gas permeable membranes in my lungs are
exchanging gases more slowly than they should. I will always get out of
breath more easily than I should. The symptoms mimic asthma. It's just
the way my lungs are, no treatment, no cure.

Quoted message said:

Don't lean too far forward. Try to balance your weight 50-50 between the
front and back wheels. Too much weight on the front tire just increases
rolling resistance.

I've a notion that once I can get out there on a road bike (I'm riding a
heavy hybrid), rolling resistance won't be as much of an issue. ;-)

-km

--
the black rose
proud to be owned by a yorkie
http://community.webshots.com/user/blackrosequilts

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In article <[email hidden]>,

Roger Zoul said:

the black rose wrote:
|| Roger Zoul wrote:
||| What about your knees? You don't sound like a teen....
||
|| My knees are in pretty good shape. One knee took a knock in an auto
|| accident (shattered a dashboard) 30 years ago, but except for an ugly
|| scar and a tendency to forecast the weather, it's holding up as well
|| as the other.

I was concerned because I have read in many places that cracking up hills in
higher gear can result in knee problems (one of the two major causes, so I
hear). Also, in the 2004 TdF, it seemed obvious that LA's style results in
overall better ability than does Jan Ullrich's style (the former uses lower
gears and the latter works in higher gears). That's all.

_ If you're standing on the pedals rather than seated and
grinding away you don't really put your knees at that much
risk. My knees youch if I try to climb seated in a relatively
high gear, but are just fine if I stand to climb. The problem
is that I'm not in good enough shape to climb out of the saddle
for very long.

_ As far as emulating Lance, it's taken him years to train to
climb at that high a cadence. Spinning up hills is good technique
IMHO, but 70-80 rpm is a reasonable goal for most people. 100-110
rpm will have you sucking wind very quickly since it takes some
practice and skill to keep power to the pedals at that high an
rpm.

_ Booker C. Bense

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Quoted message said:

Cool! I wasn't able to make it to the top of any but one hill standing
on the pedals, but I could definitely feel that my knees were taking
less stress when I was standing on the pedals than when I sat back down,
but then, when I'm standing on the pedals I'm also upright and leaning
forward. Every hill, my lungs were giving out before my legs were. My
next goal with the hill attacks is to extend the distance I can get up
them before my lungs give out.

-km

I do not have the lung problems because I am a swimmer. You might consider
taking up swimming as it really trains the lungs while you are doing
something pleasurable. Even as a newbie bike rider, my swimming 'base' gave
me an edge.

Pat in TX