ARRRRRGH

Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:10:35 GMT,
<[email hidden]>, " S o r n i"

Quoted message said:

R15757 said:

Here's the thing, Jobst. I don't believe you know how to
install a patch correctly. The method you have described
here and in the FAQ is not the correct one.

{cue theme from Good Bad & Ugly?!?}

Bill "popping some corn for this one" S.

Don't let it burn.

Where's Rick with the beer?
--
zk

Quoted message said:

Jobst Brandt said some stuff:

<< I can let the glue dry over night and it is still a
tacky sheen in the morning. ...>>

Oh man, this is getting comical. In a previous post some
months ago--when we happened to be discussing this exact
issue although you seem to have forgotten--I mentioned
that the glue should dry until your so-called tacky sheen
is all gone. "Tackiness" I equated with stickiness. I said
the glue should dry until all hints of stickiness have
left it, which is easily tested by pressing a finger or
fingernail onto the glued area and pulling it off.

Perhaps your finger or fingernail is slightly oily. As
Jobst says, if you leave the glue on overnight, it is
still slightly tacky in the morning. I also have found
this to be the case, at least with the glue that comes
with Rema patches.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

R15757 snipe further from cover of anonymity:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can let the glue dry over night and it is still a tacky
sheen in the morning.

Quoted message said:

Oh man, this is getting comical. In a previous post some
months ago--when we happened to be discussing this exact
issue although you seem to have forgotten--I mentioned
that the glue should dry until your so-called tacky sheen
is all gone.

I guess you have a different definition of tackiness. A
clean glossy surface of dried patch glue remains tacky until
it oxidizes and becomes useless as an adhesive surface for a
tire patch. If that were not so, patches would not adhere at
all. Or, conversely, there would be no need for patch glue.

Quoted message said:

"Tackiness" I equated with stickiness. I said the glue
should dry until all hints of stickiness have left it,
which is easily tested by pressing a finger or fingernail
onto the glued area and pulling it off.

I think you are redefining tackiness. Smooth surfaces, such
as glass, or a clean fingernail, stick to completely dry
Seran Wrap (PVDC) that has for its useful life a tacky
surface. This is the goal of applying patch glue to a sand
papered inner tube. The red gummy surface of the Rema patch
is designed to bond to that surface and combine with it to a
point that it cannot be practically removed... except by
heating. That is a chemical process that takes time.

Quoted message said:

And you made your ignorance unambiguous when you replied,
and please permit me a paraphrase as I do not wish to look
up the exact quote, that if the glue had dried that much
then a patch would not stick to it "any more than it would
stick to a dry window pane."

Can you say this without impugning my intelligence or are
you trying to be rude? As I said, if it did not display
tackiness, a characteristic of smoothness, it would not work
as a primer on surfaces to attract a patch. It all depends
on what you visualize under your definition of "dry enough"
and what works.

Quoted message said:

It was then that it hit me: Jobst Brandt has never
actually patched a tube correctly, so he doesn't know what
it's like. Fascinating!

What do you believe is incorrect about tubes that I have
patched, considering that you have never seen patches that I
have applied to tubes. What makes you so adamant in
denouncing my ability and understanding of applying patches?
I get the impression that I somehow caused you injury or
embarrassment and that you are trying to get even.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said, have you tried pulling a patch off immediately
after application?

Quoted message said:

Yes a few times when I was attempting to patch two nearby
punctures with a single patch, and missed. Then I tried to
pull the patch off and reposition...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If so, you will notice that the patch can be pulled off
easily even by pulling the cellophane from one corner.

Quoted message said:

Eh?? Now you're freakin me out. No--the correctly
installed patch is extremely difficult to remove from the
first second after installation. If you proceed as
directed, the patch locks on to the tube immediately and
it ain't comin' off. You better get it right the first
time. If you ever get around to trying it, you'll have one
of those eureka! moments.

I see you avoid explaining why Rema patches are made so that
the cellophane can be peeled from inside to outside after
applying the patch, something that Rema designed so the
patch will not peel off while pulling off the cellophane.

If you don't believe that, how about sticking a patch on
half way while holding onto the raised portion and note how
easily it pulls off without separating the red part from the
black, something that is not the case with a cured patch.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe you can explain in non-Rube Goldberg terms how dry
the glue must be ...

Quoted message said:

The glue must be dry enough that it loses any hint of
stickiness, easily determined by touch. Dry. Rema directs
a five-minute wait, I have found that 3 minutes is
usually enough.

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum? We
are not out on the road to sit around gratuitously waiting
more than enough to apply a patch. I proposed a realistic
measure that sees when all the volatile parts of the glue
have evaporated. What do you believe occurs beyond the point
where the glue thickness is essentially zero and only a
tacky sheen that replicates the surface of the tube remains?
Just repeating that this is all wrong and that your patches
are perfect does not resolve anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...and what the mechanism is that causes patches to
separation from the center outward.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm lesseee... If you don't let the glue dry before
applying the patch, the patch don't stick?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you have not tested what I explain...

Quoted message said:

[censored]! I cut through all the patches in a perfectly
good tube and you'd better recognize. None of the patches
showed any sign of pulling away. (As I already pointed out
in a previous post.)

Leave the feces out of this. I also explained that I have
examined many patched tubes with partially delaminated
patches and explained that these have two causes. The first
is from not removing mold release (the natural surface of
the tube) with sand paper and the second that the patched
tube is immediately put into service. Of course glue that is
not dry is the third cause but that was already covered in
the instruction on waiting before applying the patch.

I have seen the results of properly patched tubes that later
had bulged patches from immediate use after patching.
Although the patch was flat on the tube before inflation, on
removal afterwards it was bulged and had its center
delaminated although without leaking then or later.
Subsequent autopsies revealed this condition.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hold it! Let me know what it should say, and be specific.

Quoted message said:

Well you could just say, "simply follow the directions in
the patch kit, they work great." I mean, if someone is
patching a tube, they probably have the directions folded
up right there.

That won't work because drying time is not a constant and
the instructions do not mention patch curing time in place,
something that you insist does not occur although I can
demonstrate it (as you can).

Quoted message said:

Or you could simply direct people to: allow several
minutes for the glue to dry (until a fingertip pressed
lightly onto the glued area can be pulled away without any
hint of stickiness) before firmly pressing the patch on.
While there is a minimum drying time for glue to be
effective, there is no maximum if the glued area can be
kept reasonably clean. The glued area must exceed the area
of the patch so that all the patch's edges are in contact
with dry glue. Here's the best part: Once the patch has
been firmly pressed over the puncture, the tube can be
stuffed back into the tire and ridden immediately without
worry, provided the rider has thoroughly checked the
inside of the tire for any protuberances.

Well as I said that works and it must be done at times but
you should not be surprised if it develops a slow leak
later and I explain how this can occur. That the patch
should land on a fully prepared area goes without saying,
but the hazard of riding a fresh patch remains, especially
for a tube that is substantially smaller than the tire
cross section, a common practice these days of weight
saving. In fact some of the tubes I find along the road are
abut as large in cross section as the tip of my little
finger. This size is smaller than a common Rema patch when
the tube is laid flat for patching.

Quoted message said:

If you say that, then you can just cut out all that other
irrelevant gobbledygook.

You may call it that but I believe the dynamics of a tire
and tube should be understood for an appreciation of what a
patch or boot must endure. I suppose you haven't tried the
business card test of tire casing distortion or you would be
aware of the distortion a tire an tube experiences with
every rotation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hope you are aware that in cold weather and high
humidity, glue curing takes longer.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, "curing" is an irrelevant concept here and you need
to get over it. Just spread the glue on, LET IT DRY, press
the patch on, and ride. That's it, you're done.

OK, so you like to use the term "dry". Well drying
takes longer in cold weather and high humidity. Are you
aware of that?

Quoted message said:

Extreme cold can make patching impossible because the glue
crumbles off the tube. High humidity might mean a few
extra minutes of drying time.

Oh. That's a new concept. I think you'll find that patching
glue does not freeze and does not get brittle with cold
temperature. It just loses volatility and takes longer to
dry. Try it, you'll like
it. I only brought that up to underscore that drying time
is a variable for which a different control than a stop
watch can be found and that measure is the appearance
of the glue surface and how it looks when ready to use.
I take it that this is what you are arguing about,
nothing else.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

R15757 snipe further from cover of anonymity:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can let the glue dry over night and it is still a tacky
sheen in the morning.

Quoted message said:

Oh man, this is getting comical. In a previous post some
months ago--when we happened to be discussing this exact
issue although you seem to have forgotten--I mentioned
that the glue should dry until your so-called tacky sheen
is all gone.

I guess you have a different definition of tackiness. A
clean glossy surface of dried patch glue remains tacky until
it oxidizes and becomes useless as an adhesive surface for a
tire patch. If that were not so, patches would not adhere at
all. Or, conversely, there would be no need for patch glue.

Quoted message said:

"Tackiness" I equated with stickiness. I said the glue
should dry until all hints of stickiness have left it,
which is easily tested by pressing a finger or fingernail
onto the glued area and pulling it off.

I think you are redefining tackiness. Smooth surfaces, such
as glass, or a clean fingernail, stick to completely dry
Seran Wrap (PVDC) that has for its useful life a tacky
surface. This is the goal of applying patch glue to a sand
papered inner tube. The red gummy surface of the Rema patch
is designed to bond to that surface and combine with it to a
point that it cannot be practically removed... except by
heating. That is a chemical process that takes time.

Quoted message said:

And you made your ignorance unambiguous when you replied,
and please permit me a paraphrase as I do not wish to look
up the exact quote, that if the glue had dried that much
then a patch would not stick to it "any more than it would
stick to a dry window pane."

Can you say this without impugning my intelligence or are
you trying to be rude? As I said, if it did not display
tackiness, a characteristic of smoothness, it would not work
as a primer on surfaces to attract a patch. It all depends
on what you visualize under your definition of "dry enough"
and what works.

Quoted message said:

It was then that it hit me: Jobst Brandt has never
actually patched a tube correctly, so he doesn't know what
it's like. Fascinating!

What do you believe is incorrect about tubes that I have
patched, considering that you have never seen patches that I
have applied to tubes. What makes you so adamant in
denouncing my ability and understanding of applying patches?
I get the impression that I somehow caused you injury or
embarrassment and that you are trying to get even.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I said, have you tried pulling a patch off immediately
after application?

Quoted message said:

Yes a few times when I was attempting to patch two nearby
punctures with a single patch, and missed. Then I tried to
pull the patch off and reposition...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If so, you will notice that the patch can be pulled off
easily even by pulling the cellophane from one corner.

Quoted message said:

Eh?? Now you're freakin me out. No--the correctly
installed patch is extremely difficult to remove from the
first second after installation. If you proceed as
directed, the patch locks on to the tube immediately and
it ain't comin' off. You better get it right the first
time. If you ever get around to trying it, you'll have one
of those eureka! moments.

I see you avoid explaining why Rema patches are made so that
the cellophane can be peeled from inside to outside after
applying the patch, something that Rema designed so the
patch will not peel off while pulling off the cellophane.

If you don't believe that, how about sticking a patch on
half way while holding onto the raised portion and note how
easily it pulls off without separating the red part from the
black, something that is not the case with a cured patch.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Maybe you can explain in non-Rube Goldberg terms how dry
the glue must be ...

Quoted message said:

The glue must be dry enough that it loses any hint of
stickiness, easily determined by touch. Dry. Rema directs
a five-minute wait, I have found that 3 minutes is
usually enough.

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum? We
are not out on the road to sit around gratuitously waiting
more than enough to apply a patch. I proposed a realistic
measure that sees when all the volatile parts of the glue
have evaporated. What do you believe occurs beyond the point
where the glue thickness is essentially zero and only a
tacky sheen that replicates the surface of the tube remains?
Just repeating that this is all wrong and that your patches
are perfect does not resolve anything.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...and what the mechanism is that causes patches to
separation from the center outward.

Quoted message said:

Hmmm lesseee... If you don't let the glue dry before
applying the patch, the patch don't stick?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you have not tested what I explain...

Quoted message said:

[censored]! I cut through all the patches in a perfectly
good tube and you'd better recognize. None of the patches
showed any sign of pulling away. (As I already pointed out
in a previous post.)

Leave the feces out of this. I also explained that I have
examined many patched tubes with partially delaminated
patches and explained that these have two causes. The first
is from not removing mold release (the natural surface of
the tube) with sand paper and the second that the patched
tube is immediately put into service. Of course glue that is
not dry is the third cause but that was already covered in
the instruction on waiting before applying the patch.

I have seen the results of properly patched tubes that later
had bulged patches from immediate use after patching.
Although the patch was flat on the tube before inflation, on
removal afterwards it was bulged and had its center
delaminated although without leaking then or later.
Subsequent autopsies revealed this condition.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Hold it! Let me know what it should say, and be specific.

Quoted message said:

Well you could just say, "simply follow the directions in
the patch kit, they work great." I mean, if someone is
patching a tube, they probably have the directions folded
up right there.

That won't work because drying time is not a constant and
the instructions do not mention patch curing time in place,
something that you insist does not occur although I can
demonstrate it (as you can).

Quoted message said:

Or you could simply direct people to: allow several
minutes for the glue to dry (until a fingertip pressed
lightly onto the glued area can be pulled away without any
hint of stickiness) before firmly pressing the patch on.
While there is a minimum drying time for glue to be
effective, there is no maximum if the glued area can be
kept reasonably clean. The glued area must exceed the area
of the patch so that all the patch's edges are in contact
with dry glue. Here's the best part: Once the patch has
been firmly pressed over the puncture, the tube can be
stuffed back into the tire and ridden immediately without
worry, provided the rider has thoroughly checked the
inside of the tire for any protuberances.

Well as I said that works and it must be done at times but
you should not be surprised if it develops a slow leak
later and I explain how this can occur. That the patch
should land on a fully prepared area goes without saying,
but the hazard of riding a fresh patch remains, especially
for a tube that is substantially smaller than the tire
cross section, a common practice these days of weight
saving. In fact some of the tubes I find along the road are
abut as large in cross section as the tip of my little
finger. This size is smaller than a common Rema patch when
the tube is laid flat for patching.

Quoted message said:

If you say that, then you can just cut out all that other
irrelevant gobbledygook.

You may call it that but I believe the dynamics of a tire
and tube should be understood for an appreciation of what a
patch or boot must endure. I suppose you haven't tried the
business card test of tire casing distortion or you would be
aware of the distortion a tire an tube experiences with
every rotation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I hope you are aware that in cold weather and high
humidity, glue curing takes longer.

Quoted message said:

Jobst, "curing" is an irrelevant concept here and you need
to get over it. Just spread the glue on, LET IT DRY, press
the patch on, and ride. That's it, you're done.

OK, so you like to use the term "dry". Well drying
takes longer in cold weather and high humidity. Are you
aware of that?

Quoted message said:

Extreme cold can make patching impossible because the glue
crumbles off the tube. High humidity might mean a few
extra minutes of drying time.

Oh. That's a new concept. I think you'll find that patching
glue does not freeze and does not get brittle with cold
temperature. It just loses volatility and takes longer to
dry. Try it, you'll like
it. I only brought that up to underscore that drying time
is a variable for which a different control than a stop
watch can be found and that measure is the appearance
of the glue surface and how it looks when ready to use.
I take it that this is what you are arguing about,
nothing else.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:21 GMT,
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum?
We are not out on the road to sit around gratuitously
waiting more than enough to apply a patch. I proposed a
realistic measure that sees when all the volatile parts of
the glue have evaporated.

My grandfather lit it with his Zippo.
--
zk

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:21 GMT,
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum?

I use very little glue and I'm off in under 3 minutes.

Greg

G.T. said:

"Zoot Katz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thu, 29 Apr 2004 04:37:21 GMT,
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

OK, So ten minutes is enough but how long is the minimum?

I use very little glue and I'm off in under 3 minutes.

Greg

You're not meant to sniff it.

Zoot Katz said:

Quoted message said:

R15757 said:

Here's the thing, Jobst. I don't believe you know how to

{cue theme from Good Bad & Ugly?!?} Bill "popping some
corn for this one" S.

Don't let it burn. Where's Rick with the beer?

Sorry, I was loading the cooler into the truck...I haven't
got a bike trailer to carry it, nor sufficient bike legs to
power it...
--
Rick Onanian

Quoted message said:

best part: Once the patch has been firmly pressed over the
puncture, the tube can be stuffed back into the tire and
ridden immediately without worry, provided the rider has
throroughly checked the inside of the tire for any
protuberances.

It has been my experience, that the patch holds much better
if immediately put back into the tire and inflated to riding
pressure. I would think that the patch is held in place by
the tube against the tire. I try not to put a freshly fixed
tube into the bag. Either fix it and ride it, or remove and
replace and fix at home.

I am confused, if you say wait till the glue is no
longer tackie, that means sticky, what will keep it
stuck to the tube?

Quoted message said:

tk wrote in part:

<< I am confused, if you say wait till the glue is no
longer tackie, that means sticky, what will keep it stuck
to the tube? >>

It could be magic for all I know. Seriously, it is not
glue in the tradtional sense but a bonding agent that
works only after it has dried for a few minutes.
Stickiness will actually prevent the patch from sticking--
I know, it sounds crazy. I think you just have to try it
once, with the glue completely dry to the touch, to
appreciate how well it works.

If you never try it, you could live your whole life
thinking patches need to be cured overnight.

I don't believe that anyone here thinks that.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

Benjamin Lewis said:

Quoted message said:

If you never try it, you could live your whole life
thinking patches need to be cured overnight.

I don't believe that anyone here thinks that.

Wait, never mind, I thought you meant *before* applying the
patches to the tube.

For me this is academic anyway, since it's easier for
me to bring a few spare tubes, and patch them at my
leisure at home.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Seeing is deceiving. It's eating that's believing.
-- James Thurber

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 00:46:30 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I think you are misreading what I mean by "tacky sheen"

I think you both agree but have differing definitions of
'tacky sheen', indeed. It sure looks like that from a third-
person unsolicited opinion point of view...

So, please both describe in excruciating detail.

Anyway...The FAQ says this: :After the glue has dried so
that no liquid or :jelly remains, leaving the area with a
tacky sheen, the patch should :be pressed into place.

That does leave some to interpretation. How about "after
the glue is as dry as it's going to get" instead of
"tacky sheen"?
--
Rick "Apache Explanation" Onanian

On Thu, 29 Apr 2004 17:09:13 +0100, Vincent Wilcox <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

G.T. said:

I use very little glue and I'm off in under 3 minutes.

You're not meant to sniff it.

Personally, I think that's the whole problem with this
thread...both people have patched so many times that the
little bit of inadvertent glue sniffing each time has
cumulatively destroyed the portion of their brain that gets
the most bloodflow when patching (presumably, the portion
that controls patching -- the medulla patchtubetto or
something, right?).
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:53:22 GMT, garmonboezia

cthvlhv@r'lyeh.arg said:

Oh yeh also, a sharpie or ball point pen is great for
marking the puncture location. Sandpapering the tube will
obliterate the marks so make em long.

You can see that on a black tube?

I find that "Wite Out" or "Liquid Paper" is perfect for
marking nearly everything. It stands out against most
colors on the bike, is harmless if you leave it there (and
wears off in a reasonable time), and is removed easily if
you want to. I mark chains, gears, tires, handlebars,
anything with it. I also use it in non-bicycle
applications.

About the only place I don't use it is on paper.
--
Rick Onanian

I can. The mark is close to true black and stands out
somewhat against the off grey of the mold release covered
tube, which is good because I can't rely on myself to always
pack a more visable marker, but I always have something to
write with.

Mike