ARRRRRGH

Did you use one of those "no glue' (read: no stick!)
patches? at best they are only good for twenty miles or so.

- -

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

Regarding the FAQ comment on resistance to stretching by the
patch; If possible, I always inflate the tube somewhat
before applying the patch. This will prevent the stretching
of the patch, as the tube will already be at the size it
will be when inflated inside the tire.

It will create a "blister" when the tube is deflated and
rerolled (if you save patched tubes for spares). because the
patch won't shrink any more than it will stretch. But while
it's in the tire, you won't have that narrow spot that can
sometimes be felt while riding.

- -

"May you have the wind at your back. And a really low gear
for the hills!"

Chris Zacho ~ "Your Friendly Neighborhood Wheelman"

Chris'Z Corner geocities.comczcornerOpen ↗

On Sun, 25 Apr 2004 11:07:01 -0400, "frkrygow"

frkrygow'@mousepotato.edu said:

Peter Cole said:

The only really bad time I recall fixing a flat was one
cold December day, when I was lost deep in unfamiliar
woods, alone, with a flat, mud covered tire, at dusk.
That isn't a fond memory.

My version was in a campground in Maine on a summer's
evening. We'd ridden away from our campsite on a sort of
shortcut trail through the marshy woods when the tandem
flatted. Despite three people swatting, I probably lost a
pint of blood to the mosquitos.

How did people live before DEET?

They avoided being out and about in mosquito-prone areas, or
during dawn or dusk at peak mosquito activity. They also
planned settlements to drain water, avoid stagnant pools,
and take advantage of breezes.

Also, mosquitos don't like cooking fires and the smoke
they create.

-Luigi

Luigi de Guzman said:

Quoted message said:

How did people live before DEET?

They avoided being out and about in mosquito-prone areas

minnesota? between winter and mosquito season you're left
with late april, may early june and late september.
--
david reuteler [email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

David Reuteler said:

Luigi de Guzman said:

Quoted message said:

How did people live before DEET?

They avoided being out and about in mosquito-prone areas

minnesota? between winter and mosquito season you're left
with late april, may early june and late september.

I understand Winnipeg gets 'em, too. And in especially bad
mosquito seasons, there are worries about their bites
causing encephalitis.

Maybe there needs to be more bats, swallows,
dragonflies, etc.

good ride, Tom

--
-- Powered by FreeBSD Above address is just a spam midden.
I'm really at: tkeats [curlicue] vcn [point] bc [point] ca

"frkrygow" <"frkrygow"@mousepotato.edu> wrote

Quoted message said:

My version was in a campground in Maine on a summer's
evening. We'd ridden away from our campsite on a sort of
shortcut trail through the marshy woods when the tandem
flatted. Despite three people swatting, I probably lost a
pint of blood to the mosquitos.

How did people live before DEET?

I've been there too. I *never* go on long rides or rides in
the woods w/o DEET. Ever tried to pee in a cloud of
mosquitoes? Losing blood is one thing, but...

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Luigi De Guzman
I must suck at flat-fixing.

Many moons ago, I had a flat. I patched it. It held air.
Life was good.

I went away for a couple of weeks, during which my bicycle
languished on its hook. now that I come back to it--the tire
is flat. No problem, I'll just pump it up--and then I hear
the sharp hiss.

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my
patching bad?

I'll just slap a new tube on it this afternoon and re-teach
myself how to patch. ugh.

-Luigi

🙁

I have been having the same problem of late. The patch kits never provide enough damn glue. But the key is roughijh up thr tire surace very well and getting the glue all over that area. The next trick is keeoing your dirty fingers off the patch--impossible. I have had such poor luck lately that I am trying the glueless patches next. I will let you know how they work. But after more than 3,000 mile last season I didn't get a flat. Amazing. This year first time out on new tires I ran over freshly broken glass. Sliced a new Pro Race. That hurts. Ended up throwing the tube out and using a new one. Good luck

(Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman') said:

Did you use one of those "no glue' (read: no stick!)
patches? at best they are only good for twenty miles or so.

Not my experience at all. While they have less of a life
span than a glued patch, they're SO quick and easy that
they're all I use now (here in thorn central). I've found
that if you apply them with a bit of air in the tube (so the
patch doesn't have to stretch when airing the tire), and if
you don't let the tire go flat by not riding for weeks at a
time, they last for many months if not years.

I guess some are better than others though - I use the Park
patches and recommend them (for what it's worth, and with
the proviso that they have to be installed properly and not
allowed to go flat for long periods of time).

Mark Hickey Habanero Cycles habcycles.comhabcycles.comOpen ↗ Home of
the $695 ti frame

Donald Yacovone said:

I have been having the same problem of late. The patch
kits never provide enough damn glue.

Buy a small bottle of rubber cement at Office Depot for home
use and save the little tubes for the road. You can also buy
solvent for it (can't remember what it is, but it's common
stuff like turpentine or denatured alcohol) if the bottle
dries out.

So far I've been lucky. Even though I use Rema (or Pep Boys)
patches and ride as soon as I pump up the tire, the only
failures have been when the spoke (or a thorn) pokes through
the exact same place, which certainly isn't Rema's fault.

--
Cheers, Bev
============================================
"People are too stupid to realize they are."

-- JoHn DoH KeLm

Peter Cole said:

The most important thing in flat fixing is to find a
comfortable place to work, so I walked up the road a
little to where there was a stone wall to sit on and lean
my bike against.

That's number two. Number one is buying a new patch kit or
at least a new tube of glue every few months. Nothing like
having the ability and the patches, but just a dried-up
tube of glue.

Curtis L. Russell Odenton, MD (USA) Just someone on
two wheels...

Mark Hickey said:

(Chris Zacho 'The Wheelman') said:

Did you use one of those "no glue' (read: no stick!)
patches? at best they are only good for twenty miles or
so.

Not my experience at all. While they have less of a life
span than a glued patch, they're SO quick and easy that
they're all I use now (here in thorn central). I've found
that if you apply them with a bit of air in the tube (so
the patch doesn't have to stretch when airing the tire),
and if you don't let the tire go flat by not riding for
weeks at a time, they last for many months if not years.

Hasn't been my experience with them. As you say,
certainly convenient in speed, but they don't seem to
wear well. A month or so in my experience. I think they
were the Park variety.

I still keep them on board during rides because you never
know when that tube of glue ends up being dried out and
unusable, even when attempting to keep an unopened spare.

And when are you going to realize that you already opened
that spare tube of spare glue which has dried out, and
failed to replace it with a new, unopened tube?

Next patching session of course!

SMH

frkrygow said:

Peter Cole said:

The only really bad time I recall fixing a flat was one
cold December day, when I was lost deep in unfamiliar
woods, alone, with a flat, mud covered tire, at dusk.
That isn't a fond memory.

My version was in a campground in Maine on a summer's
evening. We'd ridden away from our campsite on a sort of
shortcut trail through the marshy woods when the tandem
flatted. Despite three people swatting, I probably lost a
pint of blood to the mosquitos.

How did people live before DEET?

I've found a remarkable reduction in annoyance from
mosquitoes, horseflys, black flies, green flies, etc. from
just wearing a broad brimmed hat!

Seems the critters get a little confused as to where your
head actually resides, and spend much of their time buzzing
and biting the top of the hat or brim.

It isn't fool proof. There seem to be some "genius
mosquitoes" just like people around, but it really helps.

I might add that before WWII, people commonly wore brimmed
hats, especially out in wilderness areas. I think it
really helps.

SMH

Chris Zacho said:

Regarding the FAQ comment on resistance to stretching by
the patch; If possible, I always inflate the tube somewhat
before applying the patch. This will prevent the
stretching of the patch, as the tube will already be at
the size it will be when inflated inside the tire.

Quoted message said:

It will create a "blister" when the tube is deflated and
rerolled (if you save patched tubes for spares), because
the patch won't shrink any more than it will stretch. But
while it's in the tire, you won't have that narrow spot
that can sometimes be felt while riding.

I don't think that is a good idea, patches don't fail from
being stretched but rather from "lift off" from inside to
outside, caused by the mechanism described in the FAQ. The
blister can only enhance the ability of the tube to separate
from the patch, it being stretched regardless of what the
patch is doing. The blister, or hump, also enhances static
"lift off" if the tube is put in reserve rather than being
reinstalled.

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.1.htmlOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

Robert5 who? snipes:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

...patches don't fail from being stretched but rather
from "lift off" from inside to outside, caused by the
mechanism described in the FAQ.

Quoted message said:

Patches don't fail, period, if they are installed
correctly.

That's the big IF. If they are not installed as described
in the FAQ the failure mode is as described. From what you
say, you have not done an autopsy on discarded tube, ones
that were patched and ridden immediately. When cutting
through patches that held, the area under their centers
are often full of talc from within the tube. I came upon
this when analyzing failed patches and ones that did not
fail. These were tubes from riders who patched carefully
by the rules other than riding the patched tube
immediately after patching.

Quoted message said:

The "mechanism described in the FAQ" is a complex
rationalization that has been conjured to cover someone's
inability to use a patch kit.

Just because you didn't make this discovery, doesn't mean it
is invalid. Have you tested old tubes to see how many of
their patches are fully adhered? Before being so sure of
yourself, you might investigate whether your assessment is
correct. As you see, I always include methods by which you
can verify the findings. You don't need to take it on faith
nor should you attack these findings with your perception
against a tested hypothesis with nothing more than faith.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

R15757 said:

Here's the thing, Jobst. I don't believe you know how to
install a patch correctly. The method you have described
here and in the FAQ is not the correct one.

{cue theme from Good Bad & Ugly?!?}

Bill "popping some corn for this one" S.

garmonboezia <cthvlhv@r'lyeh.arg> wrote in
news:zFEic.16705$cF6.669952@attbi_s04:

Quoted message said:

Luigi de Guzman <[email hidden]> wrote in
:"]news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

I must suck at flat-fixing.

Many moons ago, I had a flat. I patched it. It held air.
Life was good.

I went away for a couple of weeks, during which my
bicycle languished on its hook. now that I come back to
it--the tire is flat. No problem, I'll just pump it up--
and then I hear the sharp hiss.

Do patched tires *always* continue to leak? or is my
patching bad?

I'll just slap a new tube on it this afternoon and re-
teach myself how to patch. ugh.

-Luigi

Patch or no patch, your tires would still have lost a
small amount of air over a few weeks.

As a last resort, I remove the tube and immerse it in a
sink when searching for intermittent or multiple leaks.
Also I note the orientation of the tube to the tire so I
can examine the tire for remnants of whatever caused the
puncture in the first place. Rusty staples or wire cause
most of my punctures.

I generally ride a patch immediately after slapping it on
with no noticable ill effects.

Oh yeh also, a sharpie or ball point pen is great for
marking the puncture location. Sandpapering the tube will
obliterate the marks so make em long.

On Wed, 28 Apr 2004 02:53:22 GMT, garmonboezia <cthvlhv@r'lyeh.arg>

Quoted message said:

Oh yeh also, a sharpie or ball point pen is great for
marking the puncture location. Sandpapering the tube will
obliterate the marks so make em long.

You can see that on a black tube?

I find that "Wite Out" or "Liquid Paper" is perfect for
marking nearly everything. It stands out against most colors
on the bike, is harmless if you leave it there (and wears
off in a reasonable time), and is removed easily if you want
to. I mark chains, gears, tires, handlebars, anything with
it. I also use it in non-bicycle applications.

About the only place I don't use it is on paper.
--
Rick Onanian

Rick Onanian said:

I find that "Wite Out" or "Liquid Paper" is perfect for
marking nearly everything. It stands out against most
colors on the bike, is harmless if you leave it there (and
wears off in a reasonable time), and is removed easily if
you want to. I mark chains, gears, tires, handlebars,
anything with it. I also use it in non-bicycle
applications.

About the only place I don't use it is on paper.

I recently cleaned out my barn and found boxes of stuff from
about 20 years ago and grad school.

Among my various "thesis stuff" was white out and "erasable,
correctable typing paper"!

Talk about ancient history!

SMH

Robert snipes anonymously:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Patches don't fail, period, if they are installed
correctly.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That's the big IF. If they are not installed as described
in the FAQ the failure mode is as described. ...<snip> >>

Quoted message said:

Ok, I have performed your test. I don't have any discarded
tubes around, but I sacrificed one of my reserve tubes,
which, not incidentally, had about a dozen patches on it.
My patches on a years old tube show no pulling away
whatsoever, not around the edges, not in the center.

So what! I don't have patch problems either but I have
helped many riders who do and I have their tubes to prove
the resulting failure mode. This came to my attention when
finding a leaky patch on a tube and not being able to remove
it because by that time the patch had cured and was well
attached where it was still in contact. That is how I
discovered heat removal technique and that the center of the
patch was white with talcum powder.

Quoted message said:

Here's the thing, Jobst. I don't believe you know how to
install a patch correctly. The method you have described
here and in the FAQ is not the correct one.

I don't see how you come to that conclusion, not knowing
whether I have tire patch failures or not. I come to my
conclusions from having investigated many patch failures. In
the days of yore, when we all rode tubulars, I held weekly
tubular repair sessions where sewing and tube patching or
replacement was the fare. It was from these sessions that
the term snakebite was coined, mainly because riders often
patched only one of the holes, not being aware that they
usually come in pairs at about fang spacing.

Quoted message said:

If a tube is patched using your incorrect method, the
failure mode may very well be as you describe it. If the
patch is installed correctly, there is no failure mode to
speak of.

Would you please explain what is wrong with the method
outlined in the FAQ? I would like to amend it if there is an
error in it.

draco.acs.uci.edu8b.1.htmlOpen ↗

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]

R15757 snipes from cover:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Would you please explain what is wrong with the method
outlined in the FAQ?

Quoted message said:

Short memory? I already have, many times, but here we
go again.

I'm sorry, I can't help your short memory.

Quoted message said:

In the FAQ you advise: "After the glue has dried so that
no liquid or jelly remains, leaving the area with a tacky
sheen, the patch should be pressed into place."

Quoted message said:

This is incorrect. The patch should be pressed into place
only after the glue has dried sufficiently so there is no
tackiness whatsoever. This is very important. This is the
difference between a failed patch and a fail-proof patch.

I can let the glue dry over night and it is still a tacky
sheen in the morning. I use Rema TipTop glue and patches,
and other similar ones.

Quoted message said:

Then you write: "Assuming the patch was properly
installed, it will still possibly leak after a few miles,
if used immediately after patching."

Quoted message said:

No, a properly installed patch will simply not leak even
if the tube is used immediately after patching.

As I said, have you tire pulling a patch off immediately
after application? If so, you will notice that the patch
can be pulled off easily even by pulling the cellophane
from one corner. That is why Rema splits the cellophane in
the middle so that it can be peeled from the center slit
and will not pull the patch off. After application, the
patch should be stretched so that the cellophane splits
across the middle so that is can be pulled off without
compromising patch adhesion.

Quoted message said:

If you advised people correctly, you could eliminate all
that Rube Goldberg description about how and why patches
fail, because properly installed patches don't fail.

Maybe you can explain in non-Rube Goldberg terms how dry the
glue must be and what the mechanism is that causes patches
to separation from the center outward.

I think you have not tested what I explain and what is
common knowledge to people skilled in tire patching. There
are folks who understand this and have had good success with
patching. I just put the concepts together in the FAQ so
that it won't take others as many years of experience as it
took you to develop a reliable process. Instructions in
patch kits are too sketchy and do not explain the why and
how of applying patches.

Quoted message said:

The only leaky patches I have ever experienced were
decades ago, when I was a beginner and failed to let the
glue dry as you recommend. Since I figured out that you
have to let the glue dry completely before pressing the
patch on, I have patched more than 300 punctures on the
road and trail and have suffered exactly zero leaky
patches. That's a 100% success rate, not too shabby.

I think you are misreading what I mean by "tacky sheen" and
are giving it an interpretation to suit your arguments. You
didn't mention how long to let glue dry and how you know it
is dry enough to accept a patch. As I said, my prepared tube
is still has a tacky sheen after lying around over night. I
got to test that when I got interrupted while patching a
tire and didn't get back to it until the next day.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I would like to amend it if there is an error in it.

Quoted message said:

OK, please do it. I imagine the bad information included
there is responsible for more than few cyclists' sour
experiences with flat tires.

Hold it! Let me know what it should say, and be specific. I
hope you are aware that in cold weather and high humidity,
glue curing takes longer.

Jobst Brandt [email hidden]