A major breakthrough in the fight against doping: Team 'Disco' to disband.

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
Dan Gregory <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mike Clark wrote:
>
> > Yes the current UCI rule on the cyclists haematocrit is that it should
> > be no more than 50%. However if you look at a normal population
> > distribution you'll find that about 3% of people living at sea-level
> > naturally have a haematocrit of greater than 50%. If you take people
> > living at altitude the percentage increases. What that means is that the
> > rules also exclude some people from competition even though they haven't
> > used any banned doping procedures.
> >
>
> Not quite true - Charlie Wegelius for example has an exemption (his
> father has high haematocrit too so it can be inherited) and there are
> several others.

That's interesting and I was unaware of that. So what do the UCI take as
evidence of a natural high haematocrit? Do they simply require that one
or other parent has a high haematocrit? If so how often do they test the
parents? What about the possibility that the trait is recessive or
co-dominantly additive?

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

 

[Mark T]

> Given this natural
> biological variation and your assertion that changing the haematocrit
> is so crucial to whether an athlete is an 'also-ran' or a 'Tour
> winner', what you are effectively doing is saying that without doping
> the results would be a lottery of the genes. Those with a naturally
> higher haematocrit are going to have a significant biological
> advantage over those with a naturally lower haematocrit.

In every sport I play natural physical differences have a massive effect on
people's ability. Fortunately I play at such low levels that training and
experience has a bigger effect. Assuming equal levels of training, natural
biological variations are always going to have a massive effect.

--
Mark T
Cultivate Peace - Bury A Hippie.

 

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
Mark T <pleasegivegenerously@warmail*turn_up_the_heat_to_reply*.com.invalid> wrote:

> > Given this natural
> > biological variation and your assertion that changing the haematocrit
> > is so crucial to whether an athlete is an 'also-ran' or a 'Tour
> > winner', what you are effectively doing is saying that without doping
> > the results would be a lottery of the genes. Those with a naturally
> > higher haematocrit are going to have a significant biological
> > advantage over those with a naturally lower haematocrit.
>
> In every sport I play natural physical differences have a massive
> effect on people's ability. Fortunately I play at such low levels
> that training and experience has a bigger effect. Assuming equal
> levels of training, natural biological variations are always going to
> have a massive effect.
>

Agreed. So what we are in effect concerned with in the rules of 'sport'
is ensuring that the biological lottery of the genes is the deciding
issue. Perhaps in the future it will be possible to do a DNA test on the
entrants to the event and then declare the winner based on the results
of that test?

;-)

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

 

[Peter Clinch]

Mike Clark wrote:

> Agreed. So what we are in effect concerned with in the rules of 'sport'
> is ensuring that the biological lottery of the genes is the deciding
> issue. Perhaps in the future it will be possible to do a DNA test on the
> entrants to the event and then declare the winner based on the results
> of that test?
>
> ;-)

See also http://instruct.westvalley.edu/lafave/hb.html

Following that sort of thing, having set everyone at a same level before
training and practice, you can reward that instead. The possibilities
are endless...

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch Medical Physics IT Officer
Tel 44 1382 660111 ext. 33637 Univ. of Dundee, Ninewells Hospital
Fax 44 1382 640177 Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK
net [email protected] http://www.dundee.ac.uk/~pjclinch/

 

[Dan Gregory]

Mike Clark wrote:
So what do the UCI take as
> evidence of a natural high haematocrit? Do they simply require that one
> or other parent has a high haematocrit? If so how often do they test the
> parents? What about the possibility that the trait is recessive or
> co-dominantly additive?
Quick google reveals
http://www.uci.ch/english/health_sante/docs_2003/UCI_certificate_2003.pdf

 

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
Dan Gregory <[email protected]> wrote:

> Mike Clark wrote:
> So what do the UCI take as
> > evidence of a natural high haematocrit? Do they simply require that one
> > or other parent has a high haematocrit? If so how often do they test the
> > parents? What about the possibility that the trait is recessive or
> > co-dominantly additive?
> Quick google reveals
> http://www.uci.ch/english/health_sante/docs_2003/UCI_certificate_2003.pdf

Interesting. Thanks for pointing it out.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"

 

[Howard]

On Aug 13, 1:59 pm, Mike Clark <[email protected]> wrote:

> ... what we are in effect concerned with in the rules of 'sport'
> is ensuring that the biological lottery of the genes is the deciding
> issue.
>

And allowing doping wouldn't eradicate this 'lottery' one bit, not
least because a persons genetic make up determines how they respond to
doping!

I had thought that the whole point of sport was to see what heights
the individual athlete can achieve by the application of their natural
talent, dedication and willpower. In my eyes the intrinsic value of
all these human qualities is diminished by the act of doping.

 

[Mike Clark]

In message <[email protected]>
Howard <[email protected]> wrote:

> On Aug 13, 1:59 pm, Mike Clark <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > ... what we are in effect concerned with in the rules of 'sport'
> > is ensuring that the biological lottery of the genes is the deciding
> > issue.
> >
>
> And allowing doping wouldn't eradicate this 'lottery' one bit, not
> least because a persons genetic make up determines how they respond to
> doping!

Yes and no. Doping changes the odds for sure, but in some instances it
would tend to level out differences in underlying genetics or
physiology.

>
> I had thought that the whole point of sport was to see what heights
> the individual athlete can achieve by the application of their natural
> talent, dedication and willpower. In my eyes the intrinsic value of
> all these human qualities is diminished by the act of doping.
>

As I think I've pointed out to you before you have an overly idealistic
view of the purity of sport. The problem that arises with a greater
understanding of the science of physiology and how that impacts on
physical abilities is that it is possible to inform and manipulate an
athletes abilities. You can change an athletes diet, their training
schedule, and also their medical treatment for injury and recovery. This
all costs money, so some athletes and teams have more advantages than
others. Also some of the physiological effects can be achieved by more
than one method (e.g. changing the haematocrit). Some of these methods
are ruled as illegal, whilst others are considered legal. However from a
scientific perspective it is sometimes difficult to understand the
objective basis for why a sports governing body outlaws some things and
does not outlaw others. Also where money and/or prestige, or national
pride, are concerned, there is sometimes a strong incentive to play the
rules, or even to cheat, for an advantage. What this means is that there
will always be a need for continued monitoring and refereeing of the
rules to ensure compliance.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark
<\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A mountain climbing, cycling, skiing,
"> || _`\<,_ |__\ \> | immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and
` || (_)/ (_) | \corn computer user"