4x4

Mike Clark said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
W. D. Grey

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Racetrack driving (road cars) and rallying (offroad)
require very different driving skills.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Actually Paul there's rallying and there's off-road
driving. Totally different in the true sense.

I know, I was just comparing racing styles. My point
continued on from Peter's assertion "any more than you'd
keep up with Scumacher just by being behind the wheel of an
F1 Ferrari!". Even very good racing drivers can be very bad
at a completely different style of racing.

Quoted message said:

Yes I quite agree. I've never done any rallying but I have
taken instruction on circuit driving and also in off-road
driving skills. I imagine that rallying skills have much
more in common with circuit racing events than they do
with off-road driving skills. There is a complete
difference in driving a vehicle against the clock compared
to the concept of trying to negotiate difficult terrain in
complete control and safety.

I know that the concept of off-road driving is completely
different, but other than the importance of speed, circuit
racing and rallying have very little in common, the driving
styles are completely different, hence my point above. With
circuit racing it's very dangerous to go into a skid,
whereas with rallying it's dangerous not to. If you tried to
take an offroad corner as you would with circuit racing
you'd probably crash. With rallying you intentionally take
the corners too fast, purposely throwing the car out of
control, then you regain control.

Because of the differences of driving styles and terrain the
cars are built very differently, so just as an F1 car would
be hopeless to drive around a forest, a forest prepared
rally car would be very unstable and unsuited to driving
around Silverstone. This ties in with what others have been
saying about offroad vehicles handling badly on roads and
motorways. This was the point I was making. The terrain is
different, the vehicles are designed differently and so the
skills are different.

Quoted message said:

A lot of of off-road driving involves going very slowly
and cautiously and may even require reconnaissance on
foot. The aim is to get from A to B with the vehicle and
passengers intact.

A lot of on-road driving involves going very slowly
and cautiously too, also with the aim of getting from
A to B intact.

Quoted message said:

Within the rules of rallying it is acceptable to tolerate
damage, repairs and replacement of major components of the
vehicle such as transmission, wheels and suspension (but
not the engine of course) so long as the fastest overall
time is achieved.

It wasn't my intention to suggest that off-road driving is
like rallying. I was just comparing on and off-road racing
as an example of some of the differences of on and off-
road driving.

But there are off-road driving competitions where time is
involved, although speed is not necessarily the most
important factor in winning.

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 01:34:52 +0100, Paul Rooney <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Who here drives a 4x4? And out of those that do, who uses
it off-road?

I might as well unsubscribe from alt.fan.landrover, the way
this ng is going!

I've only ever driven on roads (apart from campsites &
supermarket carparks etc) but my idea of a road includes
what some people may think of as a footpath...... but
we've been over that ground (if you'll pardon the pun)
many times before.

I find the Discovery Tdi excellent on the motorway, but I am
comparing it with a petrol Series III. (I used to take a
blanket, a flask of tea, a litre of EP90 and 5 litres of
engine oil if I was going more than 40 miles. Oh, and my
tools are all in a girly handbag... just to retain that
feminine touch.)

One good thing about most Land Rovers - you can keep a
sleeping bag, a roll-mat and an Argos tent in the back and
not miss the space. (See? Thread brought back on-topic.)

Judith Discovery 300 TDi (and a couple of Series III's
before that)

The message <[email hidden]>
from Nick Hopton <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

We have to speak as we find, I guess. The Frontera I had
was, in my opinion, unfit for the road and unfit for use
off-road.

Does the Frontera have a central diff when used in 4
wheel drive?

Some years ago a friend of one of my colleagues was killed
in one on a snowy road. I did wonder whether it was as a
result of what used to known in certain quarters as the
Land Rover syndrome - loss of front wheel grip on bends
followed by an unintended off road excursion when used in 4
wheel drive.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times

Following up to Roger

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Front wheel drive? Don't like it.

Not clear what you mean but as a BMW driver I am assuming
you agree with
me. :-)

I think so!

Quoted message said:

The Range Rover (1979) was quite new when I got it (before
the model moved seriously up market) and I had no problems
getting about in that. It came in useful as a tin tent
Munro Bashing. It was really thirsty and had a appetite for
punctures like no other car I have had. It also survived
what must be one of the most extreme manoeuvres I have ever
undertaken when I swerved violently when a car failed to
stop in time at a crossroads. The tail did wag severely
though. AFAICR that was the only time either end lost
adhesion on a dry road. Some of the cheaper off roaders
would have fallen over if subject to that sort of
treatment.

I agree, if PR can afford a RR he will be OK. Susuki Samuri,
maybe not.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Nick Hopton

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

its a good idea to read a cross section of the press.

Perhaps you meant a cross-section of the press? <g>. Or
you'd be stuck with papers like the Mail and the Express.

LOL
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I drive a "Beemer" (and would not change) but not sure
eminent would fit :-)

It was you I had in mind!

I'm flattered! Hows the training going?
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to KRO

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I drive a "Beemer" (and would not change) but not sure
eminent would fit :-)
--
Mike Reid

Sorry Mike, but I know if a BMW appears in the rear view
I'm in for an obnoxious and arrogant driving display.
Obviously not yourself as I don't have you down as a
Burberry baseball cap wearer. Have BMWs come down in price,
or are they easily stolen :-)

Old ones usually belong to small time drugs dealers. You get
all sorts of drivers in all sorts of cars, I agree there are
more "forceful" drivers in BMWs than say Nissan Micras
<ducks for
cover> and I find it useful. When I drive wifes Hyundai
cover> Amica
everybody tries to cut me up. I may get a "my other cars a
BMW" sticker :-)
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hey, how about a jacked up pickup with chrome roll over
bars and lamps all across the cab?

I've just been looking at some 4x4 pickups. Doublecabs seem
to be fairly car-like inside, with all mod cons, and some
of them have seriously good offroad credentials. The
downside is, I don't think they quite suit my personality -
I don't particularly want to go bear-hunting.

They are not the same without a rifle stowed across the back
window :-) INHO choose for function, not "personality".
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Nick Hopton

Quoted message said:

OT, but trying to be helpful here; if you drive hired 4WDs
in Spain you ought to know about something I read in the
Sunday Telegraph (I think) a few months ago.

Yes, thanks, I had heard that. They said they provide 4x4s
as lifestyle choices (what a load of b******)I don't know
the full facts but as there are plenty of unsurfaced roads
on the Spanish islands I doubt they enforce it. I know a
chap who smashed the sump of a car off road and they didn't
fuss much. I suspect the fact she turned it over on the
drive may be a factor but I always drive on the assumption
that if I wreck it I could have to pay.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

There are some bargain new Terranos around. Quite tempting.

we liked it. Nice and big although IIRC most of space is
seating. With the vertical back end not all 4x4s have
massive luggage space as they stand.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

The Reids said:

Following up to Roger

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Front wheel drive? Don't like it.

Not clear what you mean but as a BMW driver I am assuming
you agree with
me. :-)

I think so!

Quoted message said:

The Range Rover (1979) was quite new when I got it (before
the model moved seriously up market) and I had no problems
getting about in that. It came in useful as a tin tent
Munro Bashing. It was really thirsty and had a appetite
for punctures like no other car I have had. It also
survived what must be one of the most extreme manoeuvres I
have ever undertaken when I swerved violently when a car
failed to stop in time at a crossroads. The tail did wag
severely though. AFAICR that was the only time either end
lost adhesion on a dry road. Some of the cheaper off
roaders would have fallen over if subject to that sort of
treatment.

I agree, if PR can afford a RR he will be OK. Susuki
Samuri, maybe not.

A RR is out of my price range, unless it was a few years
old. Something a bit lower down the range is what I'm after!

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

The Reids said:

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I drive a "Beemer" (and would not change) but not sure
eminent would fit :-)

It was you I had in mind!

I'm flattered! Hows the training going?

Calf muscles/tendons still not completely healed. Gentle hill-
walking is my current limit.

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

The Reids said:

Following up to Chris Morriss

Quoted message said:

In the Guardian! Oh dear me no, one does NOT read the
Guardian.

One looks at the pictures?

Richard Webb

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

A RR is out of my price range, unless it was a few
years old. Something a bit lower down the range is what
I'm after!

I assumed that :-) The better Japs are going to be best
(dont like the sound of all those Frontera problems) the
Terrano was very comfortable and big, as I said. The only
fault we had in several thousand miles (3 vehicles) was the
front bumper touching the wheel after crossing a deep ditch,
fixed with the jack!
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'm flattered! Hows the training going?

Calf muscles/tendons still not completely healed. Gentle
hill-walking is my current limit.

that's a b*****.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Wasdale-Lake district-Thames path-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders

url=''URL:/url said:

Mike Clark wrote:

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Yes I quite agree. I've never done any rallying but I
have taken instruction on circuit driving and also in
off-road driving skills. I imagine that rallying skills
have much more in common with circuit racing events than
they do with off-road driving skills. There is a
complete difference in driving a vehicle against the
clock compared to the concept of trying to negotiate
difficult terrain in complete control and safety.

I know that the concept of off-road driving is completely
different, but other than the importance of speed, circuit
racing and rallying have very little in common, the
driving styles are completely different, hence my point
above. With circuit racing it's very dangerous to go into
a skid, whereas with rallying it's dangerous not to. If
you tried to take an offroad corner as you would with
circuit racing you'd probably crash. With rallying you
intentionally take the corners too fast, purposely
throwing the car out of control, then you regain control.

Rallying requires skills in driving on all sorts of surfaces
and there are many tarmac rallies or tarmac stages where the
drivers need to avoid skidding and instead try to drive in a
similar way to track events. In such events the cars
suspension and also the tyre choices are not very different
to events such as Touring Car racing.

You seem to be assuming that all rally driving takes
place on gravel or snow. Many rallies take place on
tarmac surfaces.

Quoted message said:

Because of the differences of driving styles and terrain
the cars are built very differently, so just as an F1 car
would be hopeless to drive around a forest, a forest
prepared rally car would be very unstable and unsuited to
driving around Silverstone.

But a tarmac rally prepared car would perform reasonably
well around Silverstone.

Quoted message said:

This ties in with what others have been saying about
offroad vehicles handling badly on roads and motorways.
This was the point I was making. The terrain is different,
the vehicles are designed differently and so the skills
are different.

In rallying the vehicles have to cope with a range of stages
including snow and ice, gravel, mud and tarmac. In order to
cope the teams change the suspension setup, including ride
heights, and they also make different tyre choices. Rally
drivers need to have all round skills to cope with these
different surfaces.

Obviously most of us make do with a single vehicle and one
choice of tyres and thus there is a need for a compromise
based on what you are going to use the vehicle for.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A
mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \>
| immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/
(_) | \corn computer user"

Quoted message said:

I find the Discovery Tdi excellent on the motorway, but I
am comparing it with a petrol Series III.

My other half offered me an ultimatum. The Series III Safari
had to go. Coincidentally her grandfather died and left us a
bit of cash, so we headed off to the local LR dealers.

We could have afforded a nearly new Disco, or a new
Freelander. A Defender was out of the question, because she
"didn't want another one of those". I explained that a new
90 would be nothing like my old 108". We eventually
compromised on a TD4 Freelander.

The twist to the story ... Other half is now besotted with
Landrovers, and after driving a friend's Camel Trophy 110,
has now decided that SHE DOES WANT A DEFENDER AFTER ALL!

Thing is, we've run out of grandparents ...

Cheers

Blippie
--
Visit the alt.aviation.safety FAQ online at www.blippie.org.uk

Quoted message said:

I drive a "Beemer" (and would not change) but not
sure eminent

So do I. It's called a Landrover Freelander!

Cheers

Blippie
--
Visit the alt.aviation.safety FAQ online at www.blippie.org.uk

Quoted message said:

[Landrover 101] If you convert it to LPG it's a lot cheaper
to run I'm told and "green".

... GreenER ...

But I don't think anyone, even someone who loves Landrovers
as much as me, could describe a FC as "green"!

Cheers

Blippie
--
Visit the alt.aviation.safety FAQ online at www.blippie.org.uk

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Saunders
<[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

With rallying you intentionally take the corners too fast,
purposely throwing the car out of control, then you regain
control.

Sorry Paul - I thought you knew all about rallying!

The object of setting the car up for a bend is to assist in
pointing in the right direction and using the sideways
travel of the tyres to act as extra breaking!

They are definitely not out of control - If I tried it maybe
that would be the case but then I'm not a rally driver.
Occasionally their enthusiasm gets the better of them but in
general they're quite brilliant at it.
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗