4x4

Following up to Phil Cook

Quoted message said:

Pish. The man does talk nonsense! I have driven hundreds of
km off tarmac in an ordinary front wheel drive 2x4. The
trick is knowing the limitations of your vehicle.

I have trouble with bottoming on the track to the allotment,
let alone real off road! Also the tyres are not suitable.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to The Reids

Quoted message said:

Patrol, Land Cruiser, Pajero, Shogun, Terrano (or
whatever called in UK) and all that top end Japanese
stuff are all fine.

Isusu Trooper also liked. All the big ones seemed to have
stood up to hire use well. The long wheel base Nissan
Terrano we had at Las Bardenas would probably suit
camping etc.
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Thanks - it does look good.

hey, how about a jacked up pickup with chrome roll over bars
and lamps all across the cab?
--
Mike Reid "Art is the lie that reveals the truth" P.Picasso
Walk-Photo-Wasdale-Thames- Walk-eat-drink-London
"fellwalk.co.ukfellwalk.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- you can email us@ this site
Eat-walk-Spain "fell-walker.co.ukfell-walker.co.ukOpen ↗" <-- dontuse@
all, it's a spamtrap

The Reids said:

Following up to The Reids

Quoted message said:

Patrol, Land Cruiser, Pajero, Shogun, Terrano (or
whatever called in UK) and all that top end Japanese
stuff are all fine.

Isusu Trooper also liked. All the big ones seemed to have
stood up to hire use well. The long wheel base Nissan
Terrano we had at Las Bardenas would probably suit
camping etc.

There are some bargain new Terranos around. Quite tempting.

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

The Reids said:

How far off road do you want to go? A 4x4 *car* will deal
with snow fairly well (as will a set of chains) and grass
but you need ground clearance for rutted tracks. I don't
drive one in UK because they don't steer well on tarmac,
brake poorly and are generally worse than a car, not being
designed for the job of thrashing up motorways. The ones
that do this fairly well, (the SUVs) don't really do the
mud plugging well. Also I never come across anywhere I
need one.

I'm undecided - I'd probably push whatever vehicle I buy as
far as it will go. I'll probably end up with an SUV. I
rather like them. It's all about fun as well as function!

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

The Reids said:

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Ha ha! In fact, one of our most eminent regulars drives a
Beemer, and I might very well drive one if I had the dosh.

I drive a "Beemer" (and would not change) but not sure
eminent would fit :-)

It was you I had in mind!

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

The Reids said:

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Thanks - it does look good.

hey, how about a jacked up pickup with chrome roll over
bars and lamps all across the cab?

I've just been looking at some 4x4 pickups. Doublecabs seem
to be fairly car-like inside, with all mod cons, and some of
them have seriously good offroad credentials. The downside
is, I don't think they quite suit my personality - I don't
particularly want to go bear-hunting.

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul Rooney

url=''URL:/url said:

On Wed, 14 Apr 2004 10:29:11 +0100, The Reids <dontuse@fell-

walker.co.uk said:

How far off road do you want to go? A 4x4 *car* will deal
with snow fairly well (as will a set of chains) and grass
but you need ground clearance for rutted tracks. I don't
drive one in UK because they don't steer well on tarmac,
brake poorly and are generally worse than a car, not
being designed for the job of thrashing up motorways. The
ones that do this fairly well, (the SUVs) don't really do
the mud plugging well. Also I never come across anywhere
I need one.

I'm undecided - I'd probably push whatever vehicle I buy
as far as it will go. I'll probably end up with an SUV. I
rather like them. It's all about fun as well as function!

As has been mentioned by others, tyre choice is a key factor
in what the vehicle is most suitable for. The tyres most
suitable for high speed motorway cruising are not the best
for off road and vice-versa. For serious off-roading you
need mud tyres, but these are often not rated for use at
high speeds and they will show increased road noise, tyre
wear and poorer road holding when cornering at speed.
Equally for best traction in winter snow conditions you are
better off changing to winter tyres, but again these then
limit your maximum speeds on motorways and are best suited
to use in areas where snow is predictably present throughout
the winter.

Ground clearance is also necessary for serious off road-use,
but is a major problem for high speed on-road driving. With
a high centre of gravity many 4x4s are very unsafe at high
speed, particularly when making rapid manouvres such as lane
changes or when cornering. I remember driving the Mk1 LR
Discovery which was very pron to tempting the driver into an
ever increasing over compensation of the steering when
trying to make lane changes at motorway speeds. Also if you
enter a corner too fast, whereas a saloon car may simply
break into a slight skid, a 4x4 is much more likely to roll
over on its side.

Mike <URL:http://www.path.cam.ac.uk/~mrc7/>
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A
mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \>
| immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/
(_) | \corn computer user"

Paul Rooney said:

I'm undecided - I'd probably push whatever vehicle I buy
as far as it will go. I'll probably end up with an SUV. I
rather like them. It's all about fun as well as function!

Define "fun"... Having done longish distances (Edinburgh ->
Yorkshire Dales and back) in a Landrover there's no way I
would describe that particular vehicle as "fun" for typical
distance driving. Slow, noisy and boring more like it,
though I'm sure had we needed to take it off road it would
have been far better than the car we hadn't taken ('cause it
was ill, not because we thought the Landy would be better
for the job in hand).

And pushing a truly capable offroader "as far as it will go"
requires dedicated offroad driving skills. You can't just
climb into a Range Rover and suddenly know everything about
how to get it "as far as it will go", any more than you'd
keep up with Scumacher just by being behind the wheel of an
F1 Ferrari!

Pete.
--
Peter Clinch University of Dundee Tel 44 1382 660111 ext.
33637 Medical Physics, Ninewells Hospital Fax 44 1382 640177
Dundee DD1 9SY Scotland UK net [email hidden]
dundee.ac.uk~pjclinchOpen ↗

Peter Clinch said:

Paul Rooney said:

I'm undecided - I'd probably push whatever vehicle I buy
as far as it will go. I'll probably end up with an SUV. I
rather like them. It's all about fun as well as function!

Define "fun"... Having done longish distances (Edinburgh ->
Yorkshire Dales and back) in a Landrover there's no way I
would describe that particular vehicle as "fun" for typical
distance driving. Slow, noisy and boring more like it,
though I'm sure had we needed to take it off road it would
have been far better than the car we hadn't taken ('cause
it was ill, not because we thought the Landy would be
better for the job in hand).

I can think of all sorts of ways of having fun in a 4x4. But
yes - I do a fair bit of motorway travel, so it won't be a
Land Rover.

Quoted message said:

And pushing a truly capable offroader "as far as it will
go" requires dedicated offroad driving skills. You can't
just climb into a Range Rover and suddenly know everything
about how to get it "as far as it will go", any more than
you'd keep up with Scumacher just by being behind the wheel
of an F1 Ferrari!

Pete.

Yes - I should have said I would push it as far as
*my* limits.

--

Paul

My Lake District walking site (updated 29th September 2003):

paulrooney.netfirms.compaulrooney.netfirms.comOpen ↗

"The Reids" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Following up to Paul Rooney

Quoted message said:

Ha ha! In fact, one of our most eminent regulars
drives a Beemer, and I might very well drive one if I
had the dosh.

I drive a "Beemer" (and would not change) but not sure
eminent would fit :-)
--
Mike Reid

Sorry Mike, but I know if a BMW appears in the rear view I'm
in for an obnoxious and arrogant driving display. Obviously
not yourself as I don't have you down as a Burberry baseball
cap wearer. Have BMWs come down in price, or are they easily
stolen :-)

KRO

In a recent message
<[email hidden]>, The Reids <dontuse@fell-
walker.co.uk> wrote.

[...]

Quoted message said:

its a good idea to read a cross section of the press.

Perhaps you meant a cross-section of the press? <g>. Or
you'd be stuck with papers like the Mail and the Express.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email hidden]

Peter Clinch said:

And pushing a truly capable offroader "as far as it will
go" requires dedicated offroad driving skills. You can't
just climb into a Range Rover and suddenly know everything
about how to get it "as far as it will go", any more than
you'd keep up with Scumacher just by being behind the
wheel of an F1 Ferrari!

I'm vague about the details but some years back one or two
rally drivers had a show "race" against a top F1 driver (who
gave them a big head start) at Silverstone I think. Anyone
remember that? The rally driver(s) were hopeless, they
couldn't even turn the corners properly, kept spinning the
cars. Lucky they didn't wreck them.

And the same is true in reverse. Racetrack drivers
occasionally enter rally events. Toca champion James
Thompson entered the UK rally last year and F1's Martin
Brundle I think did so in the past as well. Neither got very
far before wrecking their cars.

Racetrack driving (road cars) and rallying (offroad) require
very different driving skills.

Paul
--
wilderness-wales.co.ukwilderness-wales.co.ukOpen ↗
wildwales.fsnet.co.ukwildwales.fsnet.co.ukOpen ↗
photosig.comuserphotosOpen ↗

In a recent message
<[email hidden]>, The Reids <dontuse@fell-
walker.co.uk> wrote.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Frontera I liked.

[...]

We have to speak as we find, I guess. The Frontera I
had was, in my opinion, unfit for the road and unfit
for use off-road.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email hidden]

In a recent message
<[email hidden]>, The Reids <dontuse@fell-
walker.co.uk> wrote.

[...]

Quoted message said:

I didn't like the rock hard suspension of the little
Susukis. Patrol, Land Cruiser, Pajero, Shogun, Terrano (or
whatever called in UK) and all that top end Japanese stuff
are all fine. Jeep Wrangler great fun but tiring on road,
although still fun. Jeep Cherokee, three out of three broke
down. Frontera I liked. Never driven any LRs as you dont
get them as hire cars in Spain.

[...]

OT, but trying to be helpful here; if you drive hired 4WDs
in Spain you ought to know about something I read in the
Sunday Telegraph (I think) a few months ago.

A lady was driving a hired 4WD along the gravel track
leading to her rented villa and managed to write it off, by
coming off the track, I believe. The hire firm informed her
that she was liable for the full cost of replacement because
the vehicle was not insured for use off the road ('off the
tarmac' were the actual words, I think). The ST's man
checked with several major car rental firms in Spain and
found that they all had similar clauses in their rental
agreements. As things then stood, the lady was indeed liable
for the costs of replacement, but I don't know how things
panned out for her in the end.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email hidden]

Nick Hopton said:

In a recent message
<[email hidden]>, The Reids <dontuse@fell-
walker.co.uk> wrote.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Frontera I liked.

[...]

We have to speak as we find, I guess. The Frontera I had
was, in my opinion, unfit for the road and unfit for use
off-road.

I thought the Frontera was called an off-roader was because
it was always off the road at the garage being mended. :-)
--
Phil Cook looking north over the park to the
"Westminster Gasworks"

In a recent message
<[email hidden]>, Phil Cook <u-r-walk@p-t-
cook.RfErMeOeVsEeCrAvPeS.co.uk> wrote.

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

We have to speak as we find, I guess. The Frontera I had
was, in my opinion, unfit for the road and unfit for use
off-road.

I thought the Frontera was called an off-roader was because
it was always off the road at the garage being mended. :-)

Or 'off the road' as in being on the verge after one of the
back wheels fell off. It came to the point where I stopped
carrying my nearest and dearest in it, stopped using
motorways and used it only to get to work and back.

Regards, Nick.

--
Nick Hopton and Anne Hopton Caversham, Reading, England
<[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul
Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Racetrack driving (road cars) and rallying (offroad)
require very different driving skills.

Actually Paul there's rallying and there's off-road driving.
Totally different in the true sense.
--
Bill Grey billboy.co.ukbillboy.co.ukOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, W. D. Grey

url=''URL:/url said:

In article <[email hidden]>, Paul
Saunders <[email hidden]> writes

Quoted message said:

Racetrack driving (road cars) and rallying (offroad)
require very different driving skills.

Actually Paul there's rallying and there's off-road
driving. Totally different in the true sense.

Yes I quite agree. I've never done any rallying but I have
taken instruction on circuit driving and also in off-road
driving skills. I imagine that rallying skills have much
more in common with circuit racing events than they do with
off-road driving skills. There is a complete difference in
driving a vehicle against the clock compared to the concept
of trying to negotiate difficult terrain in complete control
and safety. A lot of of off-road driving involves going very
slowly and cautiously and may even require reconnaissance on
foot. The aim is to get from A to B with the vehicle and
passengers intact. Within the rules of rallying it is
acceptable to tolerate damage, repairs and replacement of
major components of the vehicle such as transmission, wheels
and suspension (but not the engine of course) so long as the
fastest overall time is achieved.

Mike
--
o/ \\ // |\ ,_ o Mike Clark <\__,\\ // __o | \ / /\, "A
mountain climbing, cycling, skiing, "> || _`\<,_ |__\ \>
| immunology lecturer, antibody engineer and ` || (_)/
(_) | \corn computer user"

The message <[email hidden]>
from The Reids <[email hidden]> contains these words:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Who here drives a 4x4?

I do. I think a good 4 x 4 is a safer bet than all
those dreadful front wheel drive cars that the modern
driver has been brainwashed into thinking are the bees
knees. :-)

Quoted message said:

Front wheel drive? Don't like it.

Not clear what you mean but as a BMW driver I am assuming
you agree with
me. :-)

Quoted message said:

Have you compared braking distances between a lot of 4x4s
and cars? Then there is pedestrian safety and crumple
zones. Those three together make me regard a 4x4 for a
road car as seriously compromised.

My current 4 x 4 is a car but in the past I have had both
Range Rover and Land Rover and neither had poor handling.
The RR stopped very well as well.

The Land Rover was an old SWB 2A which had been registered
as a commercial vehicle prior to my ownership. It had heavy
duty springs which might have improved the road holding.
With a top speed of little over 60 mph and limited
acceleration one had to work really hard to overtake slow
drivers on twisty roads. Long distance was also a pain -
Stafford to Linn of Dee and return one Easter was the worst.

The Range Rover (1979) was quite new when I got it (before
the model moved seriously up market) and I had no problems
getting about in that. It came in useful as a tin tent Munro
Bashing. It was really thirsty and had a appetite for
punctures like no other car I have had. It also survived
what must be one of the most extreme manoeuvres I have ever
undertaken when I swerved violently when a car failed to
stop in time at a crossroads. The tail did wag severely
though. AFAICR that was the only time either end lost
adhesion on a dry road. Some of the cheaper off roaders
would have fallen over if subject to that sort of treatment.

--
Roger Chapman so far this year 27 summits New - 16 (Marilyns
4, Sweats 1, Outlying Fells 11) Repeats - 11( Marilyns 2,
Sweats 6, Wainwrights 11) Knackered knee - 3 times