Track cycling question

The guy that took gold in one of the chase events look to be using clipless
pedals. I think he was a Brit.

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
they use both?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

The heavy hitters (sprinters) use toe clips to prevent pulling out of the
pedals. The endurance riders tend to use clipless since they produce less
hip flexor instantaneous power, with less risk of pullout.

--
--------------------------
Andre Charlebois
AGC-PC support
http://agc-pc.tripod.com
BPE, MCSE4.0, CNA, A+

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
they use both?

--Harold Buck

"I used to rock and roll all night,
and party every day.
Then it was every other day. . . ."
-Homer J. Simpson

Harold Buck said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Most pull-outs of road riders, for instance, occur when starting,
because under high pedal force, release forces are small relative to
pedaling force and can occur without the rider sensing the effect.

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted. Clips, straps, and slot-cleats are not subject to
rotation release but they can pull out just the same. Riders often
used double straps for this reason.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Harold Buck said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Quoted message said:

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

....This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

Harold Buck said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
they use both?

Clipless/Automatic pedals are used on the track, but the real power start
specialists tend to use rat-trap pedals and toe clips.

There is less chance of pulling out.

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in expectation of
a Restart?

The poor [censored] shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical'' 🙂

--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in expectation of
a Restart?

The poor [censored] shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical'' 🙂

Careful now. That was the last Olympics. The rules now allow a restart
for virtually any mishap, like pulling a foot out of the pedal
(cleat/strap)-even if it occurs during the last lap.

-WG

warren <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Harold Buck said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Quoted message said:

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

...This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

yes, i agree, it depends on the pedal but LOOKs will release if you
can pull up hard enough even without rotation, and this only happens
on standing starts, or maybe a steep hill.

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Harold Buck said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Quoted message said:

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

...This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

..I use MKS EXA pedals. They are a toe clip and strap pedal but the pedal has
a tab mechanism that locks into a slot in the cleat. I also uses MKS Fit A
double toe straps. Yeah it may be overkill but I have never ever pulled out
of these pedals after probably well over 200 starts. Some think that they
are dangerous in the event of a crash because they do not releas and the
bike stays with you. Personally I want the bike where I know it is at and
not flailing around in the air while it is twisting one of my knees 720
degrees.
Dave

warren said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in expectation of
a Restart?

The poor [censored] shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical'' 🙂

Careful now. That was the last Olympics. The rules now allow a restart
for virtually any mishap, like pulling a foot out of the pedal
(cleat/strap)-even if it occurs during the last lap.

Thanks. I wasn't aware that there had been a change in the Track Racing
rules.

--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

warren said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in expectation of
a Restart?

The poor [censored] shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical'' 🙂

Careful now. That was the last Olympics. The rules now allow a restart
for virtually any mishap, like pulling a foot out of the pedal
(cleat/strap)-even if it occurs during the last lap.

Come to think of it, I'm not altogether sure the change is a good thing.

Davey's a coupla NanoSeconds down in the pursuit.

Gets a signal from his coach.

Pulls out.

Throws up his hand.

Thinks ``That'll fix _his_ Little Red Wagon.''

See what I mean?

--
le Vent a Dos, Davey Crockett
Six Day Site: http://members.rogers.com/sixday/sixday.html

Harold Buck <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
they use both?

This exact question was posed in L'Equipe which gave the supplementary
reason that with a clipless pedal, you could lose mechanical efficiency
through deformation of the top of the shoe while pulling up.

-ilan

Harold Buck <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
they use both?

And the ones that use toe clips also use clipless pedals (in my other message
I meant "only clipless pedals"😉.

-ilan

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

warren said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Remember the OZ rider in either the last Olympic Follies or a relatively
recent Worlds who pulled out and immediately raised his hand in
expectation of
a Restart?

The poor [censored] shoulda read the rule book a little more diligently
though. A
disconnection is _not_ a ``Mechanical'' 🙂

Careful now. That was the last Olympics. The rules now allow a restart
for virtually any mishap, like pulling a foot out of the pedal
(cleat/strap)-even if it occurs during the last lap.

Come to think of it, I'm not altogether sure the change is a good thing.

Davey's a coupla NanoSeconds down in the pursuit.

Gets a signal from his coach.

Pulls out.

Throws up his hand.

Thinks ``That'll fix _his_ Little Red Wagon.''

See what I mean?

It means you, and only you, get to do a second ride. Think you'll go
faster in the second ride? And remember, you only get one restart so if
you pull your foot out in the start for the second ride you can go sit
down.

-WG

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 18:04:23 GMT, [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Don't generalize. Some clipless pedals WILL release if you put enough
upward pressure on the release spring. I've had it happen when i went
from 32 mph to 0 in an instant when a vehicle pulled out in front of
me.

This is a safety factor in Look pedals (at least some models) designed
to allow you to separate from the bike in extreme circumstances, like
being ejected straight out from the bike.

"warren" <warren@[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It means you, and only you, get to do a second ride. Think you'll go
faster in the second ride? And remember, you only get one restart so if
you pull your foot out in the start for the second ride you can go sit
down.

I remember around 1997-98 that Warren was a "mean" RBR person. He was too
opinionated.
I remember back then that WG was WAY misunderstood. Some people in RBR did
not like the Geissert.

Some people never clue in. (Tosi? Legate? (Tosi WORST of all) (and then
Legate -- the Socialists' Dream Kitten))

-Ken

In article <YiTVc.207303$eM2.111741@attbi_s51>, Ken Papai

Quoted message said:

"warren" <warren@[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It means you, and only you, get to do a second ride. Think you'll go
faster in the second ride? And remember, you only get one restart so if
you pull your foot out in the start for the second ride you can go sit
down.

I remember around 1997-98 that Warren was a "mean" RBR person. He was too
opinionated.
I remember back then that WG was WAY misunderstood. Some people in RBR did
not like the Geissert.

When OMC said my [censored] was worth reading I knew I was turning it around.

But I'm sure some people in RBR still don't like "the Geissert".

(Speaking of myself in the 3rd person makes me sound like a 100m track
[running] sprinter. That can't be good. Maybe I just need a
nickname-one that I made up myself. It worked for George Castanza.)

-WG

In article <[email hidden]>,

DemMan said:

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
they use both?

Quoted message said:

The guy that took gold in one of the chase events look to be using clipless
pedals. I think he was a Brit.

I wonder if he was using the thing I recently saw a photo of in either
Cyclingnews or Velonews: a Look pedal modified with a screw so that it
was unreleasable!

I can't find the picture now, but the rider would have their shoes
locked into the pedals in the pits, and the bolt would tighten up the
rear release section of the Look pedal (the part that is normally spring
loaded) so that the release was immobile until the bolt was removed
again.

Obviously a track-only thing, since getting off the bike would mean
either getting your mechanic to undo the bolts for you, or removing your
shoes.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

"warren" <[email protected]...

Quoted message said:

In article YiTVci.com said:

"warren" <warren@[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It means you, and only you, get to do a second ride. Think you'll go
faster in the second ride? And remember, you only get one restart so

if

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you pull your foot out in the start for the second ride you can go sit
down.

I remember around 1997-98 that Warren was a "mean" RBR person. He was

too

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

opinionated.
I remember back then that WG was WAY misunderstood. Some people in RBR

did

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

not like the Geissert. -Ken

When OMC said my [censored] was worth reading I knew I was turning it around.
But I'm sure some people in RBR still don't like "the Geissert".
(Speaking of myself in the 3rd person makes me sound like a 100m track
[running] sprinter. That can't be good. Maybe I just need a
nickname-one that I made up myself. It worked for George Castanza.)

TRUE.
I am still waiting for the Socialist of all Socialists (Kyle the Brain) to
defend himself.
Kyle's like NEWman. A weidro barely tolerated and no one's ever met. Someone
living in their own world.

You, Warren, unlike *poseurs like Kyle and Tosi*, actually are seen and
race.

-Ken

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

DemMan said:

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
they use both?

Quoted message said:

The guy that took gold in one of the chase events look to be using

clipless

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pedals. I think he was a Brit.

I wonder if he was using the thing I recently saw a photo of in either
Cyclingnews or Velonews: a Look pedal modified with a screw so that it
was unreleasable!

I can't find the picture now, but the rider would have their shoes
locked into the pedals in the pits, and the bolt would tighten up the
rear release section of the Look pedal (the part that is normally spring
loaded) so that the release was immobile until the bolt was removed
again.

Obviously a track-only thing, since getting off the bike would mean
either getting your mechanic to undo the bolts for you, or removing your
shoes.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

Marion Clignet on her LOOK KG496 track bike
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/probikes/clignet_look/look_clignet_pursuit15-pedal

Dave