Track cycling question

"Dave H" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Harold Buck writes:

> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe
> clips instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless
> pedals? Or do they use both?

Release of clipless pedals is by rotation of the foot to either side
of normal center position, and although this can be tightened, it
cannot be made failsafe against inadvertent rotation under high load.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is not that the retention fails against high load but rather that
foot rotation is less easy to control on a standing start. In other
words it is not a failure of the mechanism to retain the load but
rather a failure of the mechanism to prevent rotation (release) when
it is not wanted.

...This from a guy who has never raced a kilo or team sprint in his
life. Oh well.

Yes, it is easier to rotate the foot enough to pull out to the side
when doing a standing start on a banked track (~12 degrees at the start
line).

It is also possible for a strong rider to pull straight out the back of
most clipless pedal systems during standing starts because the springs
in the pedal or cleat for retention are simply not strong/tight enough
to prevent this. Speedplay Zero "track" pedals are among the best for
preventing this, as are the newest Dura-Ace pedals. LOOKS are not good,
nor are most lower-level clipless pedal systems.

I think that most of the riders you see with toe straps are not using
the old-style slotted cleat. Most of the pedals used with clips and
straps in the Olympics also have a mechanism intended to lock the shoe
to the pedal and the straps are used as a second measure to keep the
shoe on the pedals. In a way, the straps are there to prevent the shoe
from being ripped apart during the start.

-WG

.I use MKS EXA pedals. They are a toe clip and strap pedal but the pedal has
a tab mechanism that locks into a slot in the cleat. I also uses MKS Fit A
double toe straps. Yeah it may be overkill but I have never ever pulled out
of these pedals after probably well over 200 starts. Some think that they
are dangerous in the event of a crash because they do not releas and the
bike stays with you. Personally I want the bike where I know it is at and
not flailing around in the air while it is twisting one of my knees 720
degrees.
Dave

H All I personaly would go with a stock Trek Alpha SLR Police Bike
Which comes with the Bontragar Peddels, and a clip and strap system.
I own a Trek SLR and Use It In Club Activities

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave H said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

DemMan said:

"Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
> I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
> instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
> they use both?

Quoted message said:

The guy that took gold in one of the chase events look to be using

clipless

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

pedals. I think he was a Brit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't find the picture now, but the rider would have their shoes
locked into the pedals in the pits, and the bolt would tighten up the
rear release section of the Look pedal (the part that is normally spring
loaded) so that the release was immobile until the bolt was removed
again.

Quoted message said:

Marion Clignet on her LOOK KG496 track bike
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/probikes/clignet_look/look_clignet_pursuit15-pedal

Dave

Huzzah! That's what I'm looking for.

The associated story:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/teamtech04.php?id=tech/2004/probikes/look_clig
net

Quote:

In the heat of a full-power start, track riders have a habit of pulling
out of the pedals. The French team mechanics prevent this by adding a
bolt and nut to the riders' Look pedals that locks the engagement
mechanism shut. It's not pretty, and you really don't want to crash
while you're bolted in like this, but it works.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com
Verus de parvis; verus de magnis.

Ken Papai said:

"warren" <warren@[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

It means you, and only you, get to do a second ride. Think you'll go
faster in the second ride? And remember, you only get one restart so
if you pull your foot out in the start for the second ride you can
go sit down.

I remember around 1997-98 that Warren was a "mean" RBR person. He was
too opinionated.
I remember back then that WG was WAY misunderstood. Some people in
RBR did not like the Geissert.

Some people never clue in. (Tosi? Legate? (Tosi WORST of all) (and
then Legate -- the Socialists' Dream Kitten))

Thanks for the post on BIKE RACING. Tool.

Ken Papai said:

"warren" <[email protected]...

Quoted message said:

In article YiTVci.com said:

"warren" <warren@[email hidden]...
>
> It means you, and only you, get to do a second ride. Think you'll
> go faster in the second ride? And remember, you only get one
> restart so if you pull your foot out in the start for the second
> ride you can go sit down.

I remember around 1997-98 that Warren was a "mean" RBR person. He
was too opinionated.
I remember back then that WG was WAY misunderstood. Some people in
RBR did not like the Geissert. -Ken

When OMC said my [censored] was worth reading I knew I was turning it
around. But I'm sure some people in RBR still don't like "the
Geissert". (Speaking of myself in the 3rd person makes me sound like
a 100m track [running] sprinter. That can't be good. Maybe I just
need a
nickname-one that I made up myself. It worked for George Castanza.)

TRUE.
I am still waiting for the Socialist of all Socialists (Kyle the
Brain) to defend himself.
Kyle's like NEWman. A weidro barely tolerated and no one's ever met.
Someone living in their own world.

What's to defend? How should I respond to a whiner such as yourself? If you
want me to stop busting on you, don't be such a hypocrite around here and
start posting like an adult.

Believe me, I'm not the only one who thinks you're a complete tool, I'm just
kind enough to point it out to you so you can work for positive change. You
should be thanking me.

On Sat, 21 Aug 2004 23:14:18 -0700, Ryan Cousineau <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dave H said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
"DemMan" <[email hidden]> wrote:

> "Harold Buck" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...
> > I noticed that in the Olympic track cycling events they have toe clips
> > instead of clip-in pedals. Why don't they use clipless pedals? Or do
> > they use both?

> The guy that took gold in one of the chase events look to be using

clipless

Quoted message said:

> pedals. I think he was a Brit.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I can't find the picture now, but the rider would have their shoes
locked into the pedals in the pits, and the bolt would tighten up the
rear release section of the Look pedal (the part that is normally spring
loaded) so that the release was immobile until the bolt was removed
again.

Quoted message said:

Marion Clignet on her LOOK KG496 track bike
http://www.cyclingnews.com/tech.php?id=photos/2004/tech/probikes/clignet_look/look_clignet_pursuit15-pedal

Dave

Huzzah! That's what I'm looking for.

The associated story:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/teamtech04.php?id=tech/2004/probikes/look_clig
net

Quote:

In the heat of a full-power start, track riders have a habit of pulling
out of the pedals. The French team mechanics prevent this by adding a
bolt and nut to the riders' Look pedals that locks the engagement
mechanism shut. It's not pretty, and you really don't want to crash
while you're bolted in like this, but it works.

The 70's Aussie world sprint champ, John Nicholson, had his shoes
bolted to the pedals.

http://www.nicholson.ironbark.id.au/jmn_shimano.gif

You can just about make out from this pic that he doesn't have clips
and straps.

Regards!
Stephen

Steve McGinty said:

The 70's Aussie world sprint champ, John Nicholson, had his shoes
bolted to the pedals.

http://www.nicholson.ironbark.id.au/jmn_shimano.gif

Damn, how slow was that page to load on dial-up?!?

Bill "took like 30 seconds on cable" S.

Ryan Cousineau said:

The associated story:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/teamtech04.php?id=tech/2004/probikes/look_clig
net

Quote:

In the heat of a full-power start, track riders have a habit of pulling
out of the pedals. The French team mechanics prevent this by adding a
bolt and nut to the riders' Look pedals that locks the engagement
mechanism shut. It's not pretty, and you really don't want to crash
while you're bolted in like this, but it works.

I've been watching this thread with quite a bit of interest.

First, my nebulous qualifications are as a sometime Cat 4 recreational
racer, but I've been at it off-and-on for 13+ years.

My observations:

It is bad to crash, period. I can't see how having your feet coming
loose can help. I'm not saying you personally agree with that, Ryan;
I just don't agree with that phrase in the quote you provided. Anyone
have any thoughts on that? (specific to the track; having the ability
to take your feet off on the road is a different matter entirely)

If your feet can come loose in a crash, they are that much more likely
to come loose when not crashing (ie, in the middle of the race), which
in my opinion cancels out any possible benefit you might gain by having
them come out during a crash - because the likelihood of a crash (either
yourself or those around you) is greatly incraased.

I've seen many more people pull out of clipless pedals at the track
than those with straps, I would guess 50:1. And at the worst possible
times (eg, in a sprint or in a pack, or on the line in a miss-n-out).

My personal choice is to use slotted cleats and straps, cranked down
hard enough that my feet don't come loose no matter what. I had one
(bad) crash at the track and considering the alternative (one or both
feet coming off the pedals) I will always want to be positively attached
to the pedals.

I'd like to try double straps - I got some new (NOS) Dura Ace pedals
earlier this year which I have yet to set up.

The wing-nut Look setup pictured above is tempting. The remaining
issue would be shoe stretch, which might necessitate straps. I've
been using Carnacs on the road (Ellipse and Quartz) for years now
because they seem to reduce/eliminate this problem. I just can't
stand shoe slop (ball of foot coming up off the insole of the shoe
while pulling up); it seems like such a waste of energy.

-Gerard

Pic took less than two seconds for pic to load fully on Adelphia
Cable.

Great pic.

John
--
http://kingjohn.freeshell.org
[email hidden]
SDF Public Access UNIX System - http://sdf.lonestar.org

Many people on this thread have mentioned that pedals with clips and straps
are less likely to release inadvertently in a start compared to clipless
pedals. I am not sure that this is actually accurate. First, there were
certainly pull outs before the popularity of clipless pedals. Just think
Dave Grylls at the LA Olympics in 84 or Shane Kelly in Atlanta. Second, a
friend of mine went to the Masters Natz and watched the seemingly endless
starts tabulating the number of pull outs and which pedal system was used.
His numbers indicated that traditional clips and straps pedals pulled out as
frequently as Shimano, Look and Time pedals but Speedplays pulled out less
frequently. I am not certain how rigorous his record keeping was or if the
numbers were statistically valid but this certainly fits my empiric
perception. This was before the pedals that combine a locking system AND
clips and straps like the MKS EKA. I seem to remember at some point seeing
a pedal that looked like a traditional quill but which had an SPD type
locking mechanism and a toeclip and strap, although I can't find anything on
them now. Seems like this would never release inadvertently.

Mike Murray

On 8/22/04 23:24, in article MrdWc.214596$eM2.203953@attbi_s51, "Mike

Murray said:

Just think Dave Grylls at the LA Olympics in 84

Forget that: Cycling and 84 makes me think of Steve Bauer choosing too high
of a gear for the final sprint in the men's road race and losing to Alexi
Grewal by mere inches. Bauer was a much better sprinter and, had he not made
such a basic error, he would have easily won the sprint.

Grrrr!

In article <MrdWc.214596$eM2.203953@attbi_s51>, Mike Murray

Quoted message said:

Many people on this thread have mentioned that pedals with clips and straps
are less likely to release inadvertently in a start compared to clipless
pedals. I am not sure that this is actually accurate. First, there were
certainly pull outs before the popularity of clipless pedals. Just think
Dave Grylls at the LA Olympics in 84 or Shane Kelly in Atlanta.

It's still less likely, just not impossible. I think the laminiated
double straps (and their buckles) available today are much better than
the Alfredo Binda Extra straps we all used in the 70's and 80's.

Quoted message said:

Second, a
friend of mine went to the Masters Natz and watched the seemingly endless
starts tabulating the number of pull outs and which pedal system was used.
His numbers indicated that traditional clips and straps pedals pulled out as
frequently as Shimano, Look and Time pedals but Speedplays pulled out less
frequently.

I personally noted very few pull-outs in the starts I saw there this
year, among mostly the better riders I was watching. For instance, I
don't recall more than one team needing a restart in the Team Sprint.
(I didn't pull out of my Speedplays.)

You also need to consider who was pulling out, i.e. how good was their
starting technique, and how were their straps attached and tightened. I
saw some pretty dumb things being done in this regard.

Quoted message said:

I am not certain how rigorous his record keeping was or if the
numbers were statistically valid but this certainly fits my empiric
perception. This was before the pedals that combine a locking system AND
clips and straps like the MKS EKA. I seem to remember at some point seeing
a pedal that looked like a traditional quill but which had an SPD type
locking mechanism and a toeclip and strap, although I can't find anything on
them now. Seems like this would never release inadvertently.

Shimano. Still available at BusinessCycles.com. The cleat is the PD-64
and it's what I'll be using at Worlds for the 750mTT.

http://www.businesscycles.com/trcomp.htm#pedals (left click somewhere
on the page for a photo.)

-WG

"warren" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I seem to remember at some point seeing

Quoted message said:

a pedal that looked like a traditional quill but which had an SPD type
locking mechanism and a toeclip and strap, although I can't find

anything on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them now. Seems like this would never release inadvertently.

Shimano. Still available at BusinessCycles.com. The cleat is the PD-64
and it's what I'll be using at Worlds for the 750mTT.

http://www.businesscycles.com/trcomp.htm#pedals (left click somewhere
on the page for a photo.)

-WG

Wrong, you are talking about a Dura Ace 7400 track pedal (triangular shaped
platform) which uses the PD64 cleat. Mike is talking about a pedal similar
to that which is used on a spin bike that has a flat traditional pedal on
one side with a Shimano SPD style mechanism on the other side that takes an
SPD cleat. You then either just strap your foot or use a toe clip and strap

Dave

Dave

In rec.bicycles.racing Mike Murray said:

Second, a
friend of mine went to the Masters Natz and watched the seemingly endless
starts tabulating the number of pull outs and which pedal system was used.
His numbers indicated that traditional clips and straps pedals pulled out as
frequently as Shimano, Look and Time pedals but Speedplays pulled out less
frequently.

I'll bet if he could refine his data collection he would find that the most
significant variable in pull outs would be a worn cleat.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

From: warren [email hidden]
Date: 8/22/2004 11:53 PM Eastern

Quoted message said:

Shimano. Still available at BusinessCycles.com. The cleat is the PD-64
and it's what I'll be using at Worlds for the 750mTT.

http://www.businesscycles.com/trcomp.htm#pedals (left click somewhere
on the page for a photo.)

-WG

Those are really cool. Not being familiar with track I hadn't seen them
before.
Thanks for the info.
Bill C

Bob Schwartz <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In rec.bicycles.racing Mike Murray said:

Second, a
friend of mine went to the Masters Natz and watched the seemingly endless
starts tabulating the number of pull outs and which pedal system was used.
His numbers indicated that traditional clips and straps pedals pulled out as
frequently as Shimano, Look and Time pedals but Speedplays pulled out less
frequently.

I'll bet if he could refine his data collection he would find that the most
significant variable in pull outs would be a worn cleat.

Bob Schwartz
[email hidden]

Exactly. A quill pedal in good condition, a cleat with a good slot,
and double straps pulled tight (really tight, as in no circulation -
if you are sprinting you want to feel like that strap is contcting the
bone - besides, you don't notice until you are done anyway) make it
IMPOSSIBLE to pull out. If you pull out, you've done something wrong.
One possible mistake is to have the buckles too 'high' instead of
close to the pedal, where they seem to have more leverage.

I know some will disagree, but the fact is that clipless pedals should
not even be permitted on the track in mass start events. They are
dangerous. Pulling out of your pedals is as dumb as rolling a tire
because you didn't glue it right. It's 100% unacceptable.

A funny thing about sprinting and straps:

Something funny used to happen to me only when I did sprint events.
After the heat, I would notice that a spot on my left thumb would be
bleeding. This happened every time, but never when I did 'normal'
track racing. This happened for years. It was the strangest
thing...

Finally I figured it out. While being held on the line, I would reach
down to tighten my straps. Because I was not leaning on the rail, my
left pedal would be very low to the ground (my right pedal is at 2
o'clock or so, ready to start), and the awkward angle I needed to
reach for it would cause me to somehow skin my thumb on the buckle.
However, because I was focused on the match, I never felt it even
once. Then later on the infield I'd wonder why my thumb was bleeding.
One of the last times I ever sprinted I saw myself skinning my
knuckle in this way and then I had solved the mystery. I remember the
peculiar sensation of seeing the thumb getting skinned as I was
pulling the strap, but not feeling it at all.

If I had started from the wall, I would have had my pedal in a
different position, and I wouldn't be pullling the strap down
absolutely as tight as I could. I also wouldn't be so totally zoned
and so would have felt the injury.

-RJ

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I know some will disagree, but the fact is that clipless pedals should
not even be permitted on the track in mass start events. They are
dangerous. Pulling out of your pedals is as dumb as rolling a tire
because you didn't glue it right. It's 100% unacceptable.

The only time I ever pulled out of a pedal in a mass start event was in a
madison once when I threw my partner in. There is definitely torque involved
in the exchange if you and your partner are not reasonably synchronized.
After the race, I increased the spring tension and that was the end of the
problem.

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I know some will disagree, but the fact is that clipless pedals should
not even be permitted on the track in mass start events. They are
dangerous. Pulling out of your pedals is as dumb as rolling a tire
because you didn't glue it right. It's 100% unacceptable.

The only time I ever pulled out of a pedal in a mass start event was in a
madison once when I threw my partner in. There is definitely torque involved
in the exchange if you and your partner are not reasonably synchronized.
After the race, I increased the spring tension and that was the end of the
problem.

Did you say 'synchronized'?!

-RJ

Ronaldo Jeremiah said:

I know some will disagree, but the fact is that clipless pedals should
not even be permitted on the track in mass start events. They are
dangerous. Pulling out of your pedals is as dumb as rolling a tire
because you didn't glue it right. It's 100% unacceptable.

I guess I would be one of the people that disagrees. Most of the riders at
Alpenrose are using some clipless variety pedal, including some mountain
bike systems that I wouldn't even use for the road. Even so it is pretty
uncommon for us to see anybody have any trouble because of a pulled foot
except in starts where they are only causing problems for themselves. In
addition, as I said in my previous note, I am not so sure that clips and
straps are, in general, any less likely than other systems to pull out.
This is especially true if you add in the worn cleats and cheap straps
issue. I don't really see that clipless are any more dangerous than toe
straps and clips.

What I do think is unacceptable is falling down because of a pulled foot. I
have pulled a foot 3 times in mass start track races; once from a broken
cleat and twice because I was struck by another rider and the hit twisted my
foot out. Just relaxing the other leg and sitting down will keep you
upright. Falling because of a single pulled foot is generally a variation
of the "I forgot to keep pedaling" problem where the leg that is still on
the pedal is kept stiff and the rider gets pitched over the bars.

Mike Murray

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Carl Sundquist" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Ronaldo Jeremiah" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I know some will disagree, but the fact is that clipless pedals should
not even be permitted on the track in mass start events. They are
dangerous. Pulling out of your pedals is as dumb as rolling a tire
because you didn't glue it right. It's 100% unacceptable.

The only time I ever pulled out of a pedal in a mass start event was in

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

madison once when I threw my partner in. There is definitely torque

involved

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the exchange if you and your partner are not reasonably synchronized.
After the race, I increased the spring tension and that was the end of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

problem.

Did you say 'synchronized'?!

-RJ

No.

Mike Murray said:

Ronaldo Jeremiah said:

I know some will disagree, but the fact is that clipless pedals should
not even be permitted on the track in mass start events. They are
dangerous. Pulling out of your pedals is as dumb as rolling a tire
because you didn't glue it right. It's 100% unacceptable.

I have to agree with the sentiment. My experience is that most pull-outs
of clipless pedals are worn Look cleats. Maybe avoiding them is the
issue.

Quoted message said:

In addition, as I said in my previous note, I am not so
sure that clips and staps are less likely than other systems to pull out.

I disagree. Double-straps are almost foolproof. Single straps will allow
pullout, but decent cleats and double straps are very secure.

Quoted message said:

This is especially true if you add in the worn
cleats and cheap straps issue.

Worn clipless cleats are a serious hazard, worn slotted cleats are not.
They will still be held in by the straps -- and there again, all straps on
the market will hold well.

Quoted message said:

I don't really see that clipless are any
more dangerous than toe straps and clips.

I disagree. Clipless pedals are less likely to give any indication of
wear that could lead to a pull-out, and much more likely to fail when
worn.

Quoted message said:

What I do think is unacceptable is falling down because of a pulled
foot. I have pulled a foot 3 times in mass start track races; once from
a broken cleat and twice because I was struck by another rider and the
hit twisted my foot out. Just relaxing the other leg and sitting down
will keep you upright. Falling because of a single pulled foot is
generally a variation of the "I forgot to keep pedaling" problem where
the leg that is still on the pedal is kept stiff and the rider gets
pitched over the bars.

That is a bit harsh. People also pull out in sprints, where you have much
less chance of controlling the situation.

--

David L. Johnson

__o | "What am I on? I'm on my bike, six hours a day, busting my ass.
_`\(,_ | What are you on?" --Lance Armstrong
(_)/ (_) |