Today Programme

Ambrose Nankivell of said:

I'd have thought so. I find it impossible to learn a language without
a reason. I should have made more effort when I went to Korea
though. Hardly even learnt the alphabet.

Veering wildly on topic with this post if you get to the end, I learnt some
Thai for a holiday which I used again when I went cycle touring there. The
difficulty with Thai is first hearing it, then pronouncing it. There are 5
tones which affect the meaning. For a cyclist the classic example is that
the words for near and far differ only in tone, so I soon learnt to ask how
many kilometres to somewhere. Then there are extra consonant sounds one
between p and b and another between d and t. Learning from an aural medium
was essential for this, but I found that wholly aural learning didn't work
for me. I needed to be able to write things down to learn any vocabulary,
so I set about learning 72 new characters to read and write Thai.

Learning the characters paid off big time when I set off south from Bangkok
heading for Singapore. Thai road signs are in Thai script, some have
English as well. Being able to read a sign for waterfall on a hot day and
join some surprised locals was great. The thing that really amused me was
the warning signs - the English read steep hill, concealed entrance, sharp
bend and so on. The Thai on every one is exactly the same "dangerous
thing", which in Thai is a particularly long phrase to read.
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Steph Peters delete invalid from [email hidden]
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"Tony Raven" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

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Tony W said:

Part of the problem seems to be a Japanese macho problem that you have

to be

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able to do something well before you admit to doing it at all. They do

not

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seem to have the concept of it being OK to do it badly a few times while
learning.

Karaoke. I rest my case.

I bow (just enough, but not too much based on our relative social status) to
superior knowledge. I have no arguement against such a beutifully argued
case!!

Many Japanese are surprisingly good singers -- sadly, many are not! 🙁

However, it is a cruel and unusual pubnishment that should be banned under
the UN Declaration of Human Rights.

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Also, remember, Japanese learn by rote -- to functionally read a

newspaper

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you need to know (or be able to make an educated guess) about 12,000

Kanji

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charecters. Assuming 10 years schooling and 200 days per year that is

still

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6 charecters per day to learn. That has to affect everything else you

do.

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Somewhat less. The official toyo (general use) kanji characters number
1850 and everything else is usually spelt out phonetically in hiragana.
You need less than the toyo kanji to read a newspaper.

You are probably thinking of Chinese.

Maybe -- though it could be the double charecter effect.

It surprised me how well educated Japanese often admitted not knowing the
meaning of characters.

T

anonymous coward said:

ISTR a theory that many words such as 'window' or 'water' have non
Indo-European roots. The Europeans living in Europe before the
Indo-Europeans got here may have used such words, and they later
became incorporated into IE languages.

Ah, so they have numerous security flaws...

(dies)

--

Dave Larrington - http://www.legslarry.beerdrinkers.co.uk/
===========================================================
Editor - British Human Power Club Newsletter
http://www.bhpc.org.uk/
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Lardychap <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

JohnB <[email hidden]> writes:
[OT]

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Even if you do not intend to escape from the UK, a number of languages
are useful in many professions as dealings with other countries
increase, particularly with the far east.

.. where most business is done in English...

I've found that the vast majority of those who do languages to degree
level don't have any other skills required. REmember all these Spanish
engineers have degrees in Engineering and also speak fluent Spanish as
well as often English and French.....

I did a degree in Chinese and found myself at a bit of a loss when it
came to getting jobs afterwards, because I was focused on using my
language skills and there was actually little market for them
(especially when, after having spent some time living in Taiwan and
China and working as a translator and journalist, I decided I didn't
like being an expat and came back to the UK).

I chose to study a language because I have that languages/maths
structure & logic & problem-solving aptitude set and I really wanted
to know what all the funny squiggles meant, but the jobs where
language skills were a prerequisite were not actually ones I was
suited to or enjoyed (bilingual secretary? and even then there are
many Chinese people with better English than my Chinese who are also
probably cheaper).

So (after a lot of faffing around) I retrained in IT and have hardly
spoken a word of Chinese since - though I'm still pleased I can
understand the funny squiggles. In my case it wasn't a vocational
degree but I got distracted for a long time thinking it was and I had
to use it in my working life. The people who stayed in China were the
ones who had a real passion for living there, rather than an
intellectual interest. A great many of them seemed to be men with a
fascination for the oriental female...

Kate

kate said:

I did a degree in Chinese and found myself at a bit of a loss when it
came to getting jobs afterwards, because I was focused on using my
language skills and there was actually little market for them
(especially when, after having spent some time living in Taiwan and
China and working as a translator and journalist, I decided I didn't
like being an expat and came back to the UK).

Used to be a time when lots of Brits spoke Chinese but interest faded
away during the Cultural Revolution.

Quoted message said:

The people who stayed in China were the
ones who had a real passion for living there, rather than an
intellectual interest. A great many of them seemed to be men with a
fascination for the oriental female...

There always seemed to me to be three groups in the ex-pat community.
Those who were there because of their job, those who were there because
they had a love in the country, people and culture and those who were
there because they could be somebody when they would be a nobody at
home. I guess your last group fit into this third group and its the
greater availability because they are "someone" that is the true
fascination that attracts them. ICWBW

Tony

hello

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I find that impossibly weird - that the people occupying a little corner
of Northern Spain are not related to any other people in the world, at
least unless you go back before the invention of language.

We can now speak with you, Internet is a great solution for this
problem. 🙂

Nobody says here that basques are not related to any other people, the
problem is that we can not discover any genetic relation between our
language and others. We are no angry with you, we are learning english
also.

window -> leiho, water -> ura
be happy -> ondo izan OR izan untsa

"inaxio" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

hello
Nobody says here that basques are not related to any other people, the
problem is that we can not discover any genetic relation between our
language and others. We are no angry with you, we are learning english
also.

window -> leiho, water -> ura
be happy -> ondo izan OR izan untsa

the first basque I learnt was neska polita

Gabon!
Dan Gregory

---
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Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.732 / Virus Database: 486 - Release Date: 29/07/04

in message <[email hidden]>, inaxio

(') said:

hello

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I find that impossibly weird - that the people occupying a little
corner of Northern Spain are not related to any other people in the
world, at least unless you go back before the invention of
language.

We can now speak with you, Internet is a great solution for this
problem. 🙂

Nobody says here that basques are not related to any other people, the
problem is that we can not discover any genetic relation between our
language and others. We are no angry with you, we are learning english
also.

window -> leiho, water -> ura
be happy -> ondo izan OR izan untsa

Well, I suppose that izan untsa to my post, then... :-)

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/

;; single speed mountain bikes: for people who cycle on flat mountains.

"Tony W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It surprised me how well educated Japanese often admitted not knowing the
meaning of characters.

There are those who claim (with some justification IMO) that the true
Japanese literacy rate is a long way below the rather improbable
official figures.

The main (historical) function of kanji seems to be to keep power in
the hands of a select group, rather like the use of Latin in the UK.
In a rational world, one might hope that they could be phased out, if
not simply abolished at a stroke (from the school curriculum).

James

Tony Raven <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

There always seemed to me to be three groups in the ex-pat community.
Those who were there because of their job, those who were there because
they had a love in the country, people and culture and those who were
there because they could be somebody when they would be a nobody at
home. I guess your last group fit into this third group and its the
greater availability because they are "someone" that is the true
fascination that attracts them. ICWBW

Charisma man!

eg

http://karatethejapaneseway.com/books_on_japan/charisma_man.html

James

James Annan said:

Charisma man!

eg

http://karatethejapaneseway.com/books_on_japan/charisma_man.html

ROFLMAO. Its just so true. Loved Sample 1 which summed it all up.

Thanks

Tony

James Annan said:

"Tony W" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

It surprised me how well educated Japanese often admitted not knowing the
meaning of characters.

There are those who claim (with some justification IMO) that the true
Japanese literacy rate is a long way below the rather improbable
official figures.

The main (historical) function of kanji seems to be to keep power in
the hands of a select group, rather like the use of Latin in the UK.
In a rational world, one might hope that they could be phased out, if
not simply abolished at a stroke (from the school curriculum).

I recall from a book (Mr China by Tim Clissold; absolutely hilarious) that
the Chinese government tried a similar thing with their pictograms. They
provided a new alphabet and things and proclaimed that this would be the new,
modern form of Chinese communication. An Eminent Prof at one of the
universities wrote a nonsensical short story in pictograms (something about
a man and his razor) which when rendered into the new alphabet read
something like:

"flower flower flower flower flower...."

Rather off topic, but funny nevertheless. Does Japanese/Kanji share the
peculiar properties of Chinese pictograms that make it very hard to
establish a good mapping between alphabetic language words and pictograms?

Regards,

-david

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I recall from a book (Mr China by Tim Clissold; absolutely hilarious) that
the Chinese government tried a similar thing with their pictograms. They
provided a new alphabet and things and proclaimed that this would be the new,
modern form of Chinese communication. An Eminent Prof at one of the
universities wrote a nonsensical short story in pictograms (something about
a man and his razor) which when rendered into the new alphabet read
something like:

"flower flower flower flower flower...."

Rather off topic, but funny nevertheless. Does Japanese/Kanji share the
peculiar properties of Chinese pictograms that make it very hard to
establish a good mapping between alphabetic language words and pictograms?

I've heard tell that there is a poem in Chinese which consists of the
same sound (To Western ears) repeated with varying inflections. You
can't help but admire the subtlety of a language like that!

Jon

David Nutter said:

Rather off topic, but funny nevertheless. Does Japanese/Kanji share the
peculiar properties of Chinese pictograms that make it very hard to
establish a good mapping between alphabetic language words and pictograms?

Nope. The Japanese have both pictograms (kanji) and phonetic alphabets
(kana). All the kanji can be rendered in kana and if you look at
children's books they are either all in kana at an early age or in kanji
and kana mixed with the kana in small type alongside each kanji. With
the kanji restricted nowadays to the official set, everything else is
rendered in kana.

Where they do run in to trouble is trying to render western words in
kana and japanese words in the roman alphabet (romanji) which is where
the classic r:l and b:v confusion in the Japanese comes from (and its
counterpart h:f confusion for us)

Tony

David Nutter said:

Rather off topic, but funny nevertheless. Does Japanese/Kanji share the
peculiar properties of Chinese pictograms that make it very hard to
establish a good mapping between alphabetic language words and pictograms?

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but there are already 3
universally recognised and well understood methods for writing japanese
without the need for any kanji at all (ie phonetic alphabets which are
required for verb inflection and already used in place of kanji for a
large number of entire words).

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

James Annan said:

I'm not sure exactly what you are asking, but there are already 3
universally recognised and well understood methods for writing japanese
without the need for any kanji at all (ie phonetic alphabets which are
required for verb inflection and already used in place of kanji for a
large number of entire words).

Right, you've answered my question, unclear though it was! The problem with
the Chinese attempt to obsolete pictograms is that there was no way of
preserving certain subtleties of the pictograms in documents written in the new
alphabet. It sounds like the Japanese don't have this problem, however.

Regards,

-david