Today Programme

James Annan [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

That'll be useful in the 1 in 100 chance that he ends up in a
German-speaking country;-) I did French. In theory that might have been
useful, too, but learning to speak slowly and clearly in plain english
is a hell of a lot more use in the remaining 99% of the world!

Please tell me that's a joke! I learnt French and German in school. Some
Spanish once on holiday. Discovered that Italian came relatively easy
when on holiday last summer. Have learnt (And almost completely
forgotten) basic Russian (Although I can still read the cyrillic
alphabet). And just discovered that I can understand a surprising amount
of the Dutch that I encountered on ligfiets.net.

While I am well aware that pretty much the entire world speaks English,
I hate relying on that and would much prefer to stumble through someone
else's language first. I've also found that, in general, people are far
more willing to help if you've obviously had a go, than if you just
wander up speaking English from the start.

</rant>

Jon

JohnB said:

Even if you do not intend to escape from the UK, a number of languages
are useful in many professions as dealings with other countries
increase, particularly with the far east.

That's precisely the point (and the problem). There are a number of
languages that could be useful - in fact, a vast number. But even if one
does reach sufficient proficiency to actually use it in dealings with
other countries (a tall order since they will mostly have been learning
english solidly from about age 8, and in any trilateral meetings it is
almost inevitable that this will be the one language in common), it's a
long shot that the particular language you learnt will be the one that
could be useful, unless you make great effort for a specific
geographical aim from the outset. Which seems a bit of a long shot for a
schoolchild. What language should I have learnt at school, as a
predominantly mathematician/scientist?

James
--
If I have seen further than others, it is
by treading on the toes of giants.
http://www.ne.jp/asahi/julesandjames/home/

James Annan said:

Mark Thompson said:

Quoted message said:

That'll be useful in the 1 in 100 chance that he ends up in a
German-speaking country;-)

Hey, don't knock it. Germany would be a great place to live+work in -

I'm sure it would be, I was just commenting on the improbability of it
actually coming to pass that the language lessons are genuinely useful.
Of course one has to learn something at school, and German is probably
not much worse than anything else ;-)

Even if you do not intend to escape from the UK, a number of languages
are useful in many professions as dealings with other countries
increase, particularly with the far east.

My eldest daughter has just been doing her GCSEs too and has also been
visiting a number of companies to get an idea about careers. The
requirement of languages is high on their agendas. She is presently
looking to be an actuary (whatever that might be) but she needs to be
highly paid as she is crying out for a trice :-)

That said, I wouldn't put German as one of the most useful languages -
French, Spanish and Chinese IMO would rate higher.

John B

Jon Senior said:

Please tell me that's a joke! I learnt French and German in school. Some
Spanish once on holiday. Discovered that Italian came relatively easy
when on holiday last summer. Have learnt (And almost completely
forgotten) basic Russian (Although I can still read the cyrillic
alphabet). And just discovered that I can understand a surprising amount
of the Dutch that I encountered on ligfiets.net.

A veritable Kenneth Hale ( http://tinyurl.com/566q5 )

Tony ;-)

Quoted message said:

At A-Level?

AS in his own time. His other subject choices for AS & A level, within the
curriculum mean to carry further language study, he has to do it in his own
time.

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dirtylitterboxofferingstospammers said:

Quoted message said:

She is presently
looking to be an actuary (whatever that might be)

Very highly paid people in insurance companies, working out risk and what
premiums should be (very simplistically put). They end up running insurance
companies, get paid a load of dosh & then put everyone else out of a job by
transferring operations to India.

And buying trices.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That said, I wouldn't put German as one of the most useful languages -
French, Spanish and Chinese IMO would rate higher.

Depends what a school offers to do to GCSE.Free choice of languages to study is
a wonderful thing, but curriculums are limited.

Too true for 11-16 year olds, but opportunities can often widen out
after GCSEs.
KJ started Year 7 with French, was good at it and then also took on
German in Yr8.
When moving to 6th Form College in September she can take a number of
additional languages if she wishes - Spanish, Italian, I think Chinese,
in addition to her _very_ mathematical based A-Levels.
That said she'll probably do something with even more number crunching
numbingness along with her music interests.

Quoted message said:

Nathan's done German GCSE, he's
good at it (better than his French), so he's carrying it on.

At A-Level?

Quoted message said:

That way he can at
least have choice of working in UK, Germany and Austria instead of just UK due
to being typical English person unable to speak a second language.

John B

Tony Raven [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

A veritable Kenneth Hale ( http://tinyurl.com/566q5 )

If only. The latin derived languages share a great similarity, so a good
understanding of French made some Italian verbs easy. Likewise with
Spanish and Portuguese a friend assures me. While I can remember little
of my German ("Bullet-proof-rubber-tank-sausage-with-a-pulley-in-the-
middle" being the highlight of my German classes) there appear to be
some similarities with Dutch, and English also derived heavily from the
Germanic languages, hence the ability to understand a portion of Dutch.

Russian? That took some work and progress was painfully slow. I still
find it easier to learn the basics of a language and then go somewhere
and speak it, than trying to learn it in a class. One day I'll get
around to giving Russian another go.

Jon

James Annan said:

JohnB said:

Even if you do not intend to escape from the UK, a number of languages
are useful in many professions as dealings with other countries
increase, particularly with the far east.

That's precisely the point (and the problem). There are a number of
languages that could be useful - in fact, a vast number. But even if one
does reach sufficient proficiency to actually use it in dealings with
other countries (a tall order since they will mostly have been learning
english solidly from about age 8, and in any trilateral meetings it is
almost inevitable that this will be the one language in common), it's a
long shot that the particular language you learnt will be the one that
could be useful, unless you make great effort for a specific
geographical aim from the outset. Which seems a bit of a long shot for a
schoolchild.

So you do not believe school children should be taught *how* to learn a language?

i agree that it would be ridiculous to start teaching a schoolchild a
non mainstream language at the age of 11. However, French and German are
the two languages they are most likely to come across outside the UK -
on holidays and school trips. Thus is is sensible to use them in the
curriculum as a grounding for language learning.

Teaching children how to learn a language equips them well for when they
may need to make a choice of further languages later in life when career
paths start to be mapped.
No one is suggesting Chinese is learned from Year R.

Yes it would be helpful for everyone to speak English, but it aint gonna
happen for a good few years yet.

Quoted message said:

What language should I have learnt at school, as a
predominantly mathematician/scientist?

No idea.
It depends where you want to carry out the work and I doubt whether that
choice was made in Year 7.

John B

JohnB said:

So you do not believe school children should be taught *how* to learn a language?

No, not at all. As I said quite clearly, it's no worse a use of time than
many other things. But the hope that the particular language will turn out
to be professionally useful seems to be a forlorn one, excepting those who
make language skill their particular speciality. That statement is of course
false when applied to virtually every non-english-speaking country in the
world.

Quoted message said:

i agree that it would be ridiculous to start teaching a schoolchild a
non mainstream language at the age of 11. However, French and German are
the two languages they are most likely to come across outside the UK -
on holidays and school trips. Thus is is sensible to use them in the
curriculum as a grounding for language learning.

Sure, but didn't you hear that Chinese is the new French these days? Anyway,
Helen was talking about German being a useful skill *in itself*, not just
as good mental exercise.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What language should I have learnt at school, as a
predominantly mathematician/scientist?

No idea.
It depends where you want to carry out the work and I doubt whether that
choice was made in Year 7.

I don't know where I want to carry out the work 3 years from now,
and the coming 3 years represents an unusual level of stability (um...
assuming I keep my job in the next few months).

James
--
my other signature is wittier

Jon Senior said:

James Annan [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

That'll be useful in the 1 in 100 chance that he ends up in a
German-speaking country;-) I did French. In theory that might have been
useful, too, but learning to speak slowly and clearly in plain english
is a hell of a lot more use in the remaining 99% of the world!

Please tell me that's a joke!

Half, but no more. Perhaps I am unfairly prejudiced through working in
a field which is wholly international in nature - so much so that learning
*a* foreign language would be basically irrelevant (and certainly a wild
stab in the dark at school age, even if with hindsight Japanese would have
been a good idea).

Quoted message said:

I learnt French and German in school. Some
Spanish once on holiday. Discovered that Italian came relatively easy
when on holiday last summer. Have learnt (And almost completely
forgotten) basic Russian (Although I can still read the cyrillic
alphabet). And just discovered that I can understand a surprising amount
of the Dutch that I encountered on ligfiets.net.

Yeah, it's great to be able to exchange a few polite phrases on holiday
but tell me how much of that is useful *in your jobx*?

James
--
my other signature is wittier

In article <[email hidden]>,

Jon Senior jon_AT_restlesslemon_DOTco_DOT_uk said:

While I am well aware that pretty much the entire world speaks English,

Nope.

Not even in Europe. In central Italy, as soon as you're even slightly
off the beaten track, very few of them speak English. My landlord and
landlady spoke no English, which made signing a tenancy agreement (when
I had about 4 weeks exposure to Italian) interesting.

Even in scandinavian countries it's not universal. My mother's first
boyfriend[1] from many years back speaks no english, for example.

[1] at least the first she's admitted to:-)

--
Nick Kew

Quoted message said:

Yeah, it's great to be able to exchange a few polite phrases on holiday
but tell me how much of that is useful *in your jobx*?

Damn useful if you happen to be working in the country where the laguage is
spoken.

--This is an invalid email address to avoid spam--
to get correct one remove fame & fortune
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--Due to financial crisis the light at the end of the tunnel is switched off--

"James Annan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Jon Senior said:

James Annan [email hidden] opined the following...

Quoted message said:

That'll be useful in the 1 in 100 chance that he ends up in a
German-speaking country;-) I did French. In theory that might have been
useful, too, but learning to speak slowly and clearly in plain english
is a hell of a lot more use in the remaining 99% of the world!

Please tell me that's a joke!

Half, but no more. Perhaps I am unfairly prejudiced through working in
a field which is wholly international in nature - so much so that learning
*a* foreign language would be basically irrelevant (and certainly a wild
stab in the dark at school age, even if with hindsight Japanese would have
been a good idea).

Aparently about 20% of the world's population have some capability in
English -- though this includes people who studied English at school and
have forgotten it (much as I spent 6 years failing to master the basics of
French & Latin!!)

That leaves 80% who do not -- though my personal experience is that it is
always possible to find someone whospeaks enough English to be dangerous.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I learnt French and German in school. Some
Spanish once on holiday. Discovered that Italian came relatively easy
when on holiday last summer. Have learnt (And almost completely
forgotten) basic Russian (Although I can still read the cyrillic
alphabet). And just discovered that I can understand a surprising amount
of the Dutch that I encountered on ligfiets.net.

Yeah, it's great to be able to exchange a few polite phrases on holiday
but tell me how much of that is useful *in your jobx*?

I lived in Germany for 4 years. I didn't feel I could speak the language
proficiently until some months after I left. Possibly an effect of being
over 40 when I started to learn it and also of having a pan European job
where English was the lingua franca.

However, I now find people much more willing to try to help -- even in third
countries -- because I can offer more than one alternative. That said, I've
used German as a common language (i.e. with people for whom English & German
are not their mother tongue) on about 3 occasions -- so it doesn't open up
the options that much.

I too can struggle through Dutch websites now!!

T

Quoted message said:

of my German ("Bullet-proof-rubber-tank-sausage-with-a-pulley-in-the-
middle" being the highlight of my German classes)

Eh? Is this how they get their long words then? Poor buggers. What's it
mean?

[email hidden] (iarocu)typed

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Apparently a coroner criticised police in a case were a pedestrian
was killed
by a cyclist in a "cycle rage" incident.

http://news.independent.co.uk/low_res/story.jsp?story=546110&host=3&dir=60

Quoted message said:

Not a collision with a bike. Scriptwiter Ted Rhodes was assaulted on
14th December 2003 after shouting at a cyclist going up a one way
street the wrong way and died two days later.
Iain

Thanks.

It seems that cyclists are, yet again, all being lumped together and
tarred with the same brush.

Most worryingly, this is now being done by an 'Establishment Figure in
Authority'.

Even if many cyclists go down one-way streets the wrong way, extremely
few assault pedestrians.

This is a very exceptional case.

Making changes in law or medicine after single anecdotal unusual cases
makes bad law ann bad medicine.

Afterthought: many assaults on pedestrians are done by other
pedestrians. Some people die after street fights. Maybe all pedestrians
should wear numbers... maybe not.

--
Helen D. Vecht: [email hidden]
Edgware.

James Annan said:

Half, but no more. Perhaps I am unfairly prejudiced through working in
a field which is wholly international in nature - so much so that learning
*a* foreign language would be basically irrelevant (and certainly a wild
stab in the dark at school age, even if with hindsight Japanese would have
been a good idea).

Nah, too easy to offend your aunt by calling her grandmother. Stick to
a few simple phrases only. My wife's friends still remind her of the
movie she described where a samurai was killed by a bunch of carrots
(ninjin)

Tony

Mark Thompson <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

of my German ("Bullet-proof-rubber-tank-sausage-with-a-pulley-in-the-
middle" being the highlight of my German classes)

Eh? Is this how they get their long words then? Poor buggers.
What's it mean?

You mean like -
DONAUDAMPFSCHIFFAHRTSELEKTRIZITAETENHAUPTBETRIEBSWERKBAUUNTERBEAMTENGESELLS
CHAFT (just google for the meaning)

Apparently there is no real limit for how long a word can be in German
(other than a practical limit) as you can get pretty damned complex with
compound words.

Graeme

Nick Kew said:

Nope.

Not even in Europe. In central Italy, as soon as you're even slightly
off the beaten track, very few of them speak English. My landlord and
landlady spoke no English, which made signing a tenancy agreement (when
I had about 4 weeks exposure to Italian) interesting.

I guess those schoolchildren who have a yearning to become Italian
estate agents should consider their subjects carefully ;-)

James
--
my other signature is wittier

Tony Raven said:

James Annan said:

Half, but no more. Perhaps I am unfairly prejudiced through working in
a field which is wholly international in nature - so much so that learning
*a* foreign language would be basically irrelevant (and certainly a wild
stab in the dark at school age, even if with hindsight Japanese would have
been a good idea).

Nah, too easy to offend your aunt by calling her grandmother. Stick to
a few simple phrases only. My wife's friends still remind her of the
movie she described where a samurai was killed by a bunch of carrots
(ninjin)

Or even:

"I was trying to introduce myself as America's woman champion, but I
said the french word 'Champignon,' so I introduced myself as a mushroom."
Nancy Niemann - USA road cycling champion 1953,54,56,57

FWIW, she was also the first American (of either sex) to take part in a
European stage race.

John B

in message <[email hidden]>, JohnB ([email hidden]'😉

Quoted message said:

My eldest daughter has just been doing her GCSEs too and has also been
visiting a number of companies to get an idea about careers. The
requirement of languages is high on their agendas. She is presently
looking to be an actuary (whatever that might be) but she needs to be
highly paid as she is crying out for a trice :-)

If she's going to be an actuary she'll be able to keep you in new tricen
to the end of your days, but she'll need good maths as well as/rather
than languages.

AI .sig generator doing rather well here.

--
[email hidden] (Simon Brooke) http://www.jasmine.org.uk/~simon/
;;gif ye hes forget our auld plane Scottis quhilk your mother lerit you,
;; in tymes cuming I sall wryte to you my mind in Latin, for I am nocht
;; acquyntit with your Southeron
;; Letter frae Ninian Winyet tae John Knox datit 27t October 1563