Breaking Spokes

Roger Zoul said:

Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel and
it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the LBS. I did another
30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms of
hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I popped another spoke
on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one, but longer. I ended
up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).

I will be even more radical. Those wheels are good for show, and for
lighter riders. But they are a pain from several aspects. If it
were me, I would get a good set of custom built wheels, with
sufficient spokes and strength to handle you and your riding style.
Actually, it was me. The Rolfs are in the storage area, and the
custom made wheels (Open Pro rims, Ultegra hubs) are on the bike.

Quoted message said:

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. I
generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in upstate
SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it at or above 60. I
do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes hard to know
what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive -- some look really
hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out to be
hard -- what's up with that?).

Poppycock. The problem is the wheel, not your riding style. I ride a
fair amount, and a lot of it is in the hills (6000-8000 miles/year,
400K-500K ft of climbing). When climbing you should be shifting so
that you can turn a good cadence and keeping your HR under control,
not because it is better for your wheels. If your riding style is the
problem (which I do not believe) then wheels that fit your riding
style are the solution; match the equipment to you, not you to the
equipment.

- rick

Roger Zoul said:

This is my bike:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

Nice bike!

Quoted message said:

My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"

Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really over a
century old. This design detail has nothing to do with your wheel
breaking spokes.

Quoted message said:

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes, but still
not a cause for spokes to break.

Quoted message said:

The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping

I agree.

Quoted message said:

and that I should have the wheel rebuilt

This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the spokes are
a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.

Quoted message said:

(I don't know what that means yet).

A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's damaged, and
re-tensioning the wheel.

Quoted message said:

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.

Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be able to
pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes by doing so.

Quoted message said:

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in your
wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:

1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the spokes are a
good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm or more, have them
replaced.[1] Dimension E is what you're measuring, shown here:
<http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>

2. Replace any broken spokes.

3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100 kg average
tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples and spoke threads as
needed. The shop can easily do this.

** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken spokes: **
4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of four spokes
in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating until every spoke has
been momentarily over-tensioned like this.

Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this, but few
squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves stress in the spokes
and prevents broken spokes. The harder the squeeze, the better the
resistance to spoke breakage.

How hard?
- Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands otherwise.
- Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be about to
break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break a spoke! :-)

5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.

[1] More details on elbow length here:
<http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>

[2] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
<http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html>

Only one more thing to add - at 235 to 240 pounds, a 24/28 spoke wheel
pair is probably too few. But, it is probably cheaper to rebuild and
stress relieve the wheels than to buy new ones, so I would try that
first. If you can remember, did you hear any pinging noises coming from
your wheels when the bike was brand new? That is a telltale sign of an
improperly stress-releived wheel, and indicates spokes seating and
unwinding, the result of which is a wheel that is at too low of tension.

Even experienced wheelbuilders fail to properly stress revieve spokes -
good advice from dianne..

dianne_1234 said:

Roger Zoul said:

This is my bike:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

Nice bike!

Quoted message said:

My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"

Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really over a
century old. This design detail has nothing to do with your wheel
breaking spokes.

Quoted message said:

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes, but still
not a cause for spokes to break.

Quoted message said:

The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping

I agree.

Quoted message said:

and that I should have the wheel rebuilt

This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the spokes are
a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.

Quoted message said:

(I don't know what that means yet).

A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's damaged, and
re-tensioning the wheel.

Quoted message said:

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.

Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be able to
pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes by doing so.

Quoted message said:

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in your
wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:

1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the spokes are a
good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm or more, have them
replaced.[1] Dimension E is what you're measuring, shown here:
<http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>

2. Replace any broken spokes.

3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100 kg average
tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples and spoke threads as
needed. The shop can easily do this.

** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken spokes: **
4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of four spokes
in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating until every spoke has
been momentarily over-tensioned like this.

Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this, but few
squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves stress in the spokes
and prevents broken spokes. The harder the squeeze, the better the
resistance to spoke breakage.

How hard?
- Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands otherwise.
- Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be about to
break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break a spoke! :-)

5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.

[1] More details on elbow length here:
<http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>

[2] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
<http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html>

i second all this from dianne, but add one thing: the quality of the
spoke is very important. no amount of "stress relief" can compensate
for poor material quality or production practice by the spoke's
manufacturer. stick to a known brand. d.t. have the majority of the
u.s. custom build market - they make a good reliable spoke. sapim have
the majority of the european peloton and are courageous enough to
publish fatigue tables for their products. choose your poison accordingly.

dianne_1234 said:

Roger Zoul said:

This is my bike:
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

Nice bike!

Quoted message said:

My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"

Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really over a
century old. This design detail has nothing to do with your wheel
breaking spokes.

Quoted message said:

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes, but still
not a cause for spokes to break.

Quoted message said:

The folks over
in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping

I agree.

Quoted message said:

and that I should have the wheel rebuilt

This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the spokes are
a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.

Quoted message said:

(I don't know what that means yet).

A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's damaged, and
re-tensioning the wheel.

Quoted message said:

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.

Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be able to
pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes by doing so.

Quoted message said:

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in your
wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:

1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the spokes are a
good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm or more, have them
replaced.[1] Dimension E is what you're measuring, shown here:
<http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>

2. Replace any broken spokes.

3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100 kg average
tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples and spoke threads as
needed. The shop can easily do this.

** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken spokes: **
4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of four spokes
in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating until every spoke has
been momentarily over-tensioned like this.

Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this, but few
squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves stress in the spokes
and prevents broken spokes. The harder the squeeze, the better the
resistance to spoke breakage.

How hard?
- Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands otherwise.
- Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be about to
break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break a spoke! :-)

5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.

[1] More details on elbow length here:
<http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>

[2] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
<http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html>

Roger Zoul said:

This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

I take it you meant:

http://tinyurl.com/2lo5v

Quoted message said:

which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it until
April 17, now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair
amount recently.

Quoted message said:

My bike has these wheels:

Quoted message said:

"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"

Quoted message said:

I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion that they
are somehow designed for speed.

Not really. They are designed to make you think of speed, the
difference being only measurable with a stop watch at maximum effort.
They aren't lighter nor are they pleasant to ride in winds.

Quoted message said:

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

Work on that.

Quoted message said:

Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the
LBS. I did another 30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route
was fairly easy in terms of hills. Today, while on a ride at about
25 miles out, I popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a route
similar to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking home. The
LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over in .misc
think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).

Quoted message said:

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills
in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear
wheel. I generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of
hills here in upstate SC - Greenville) according to cadence, trying
to keep it at or above 60.

The guy doesn't understand bicycles. The torque in a rear wheel is
independent of gear ratio for any given speed in the flat and is
smoother with lower peaks for hill climbing in big gears (low
cadence). Therefore, he is making this up as a cover for his poor
wheel building. I suspect he doesn't understand stress relieving
spokes after building a wheel.

Quoted message said:

I do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes
hard to know what gear I really need to be in (I find hills
deceptive -- some look really hard but turn out to be easy while
others look easy but turn out to be hard -- what's up with that?).

I think you are confusing the effects of short hills with long ones,
or ones that you approach rested or already near your limit. RR
under- or over-passes are steep hills but insignificant as climbs.
All that has nothing to do with the reliability of your wheels. Just
the same, low spoke count wheels are not as durable as conventional 36
spoke road wheels.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008

Quoted message said:

which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it until April

17,

Quoted message said:

now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount recently.

My bike has these wheels:

"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"

I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion that they are
somehow designed for speed 🙂

I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.

Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel

and

Quoted message said:

it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the LBS. I did

another

Quoted message said:

30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in terms

of

Quoted message said:

hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I popped another

spoke

Quoted message said:

on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one, but longer. I

ended

Quoted message said:

up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks

over

Quoted message said:

in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. I
generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in

upstate

Quoted message said:

SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it at or above 60.

I

Quoted message said:

do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes hard to

know

Quoted message said:

what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive -- some look

really

Quoted message said:

hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out to be
hard -- what's up with that?).

Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.

I have had lots of problems with breaking rear wheel spokes. My advice is
to look at the Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels. I replied to another post
earlier today with my results with 36 spoke hand built wheels. The summary
is that I have had horrible results with them but great results with the
Ksyrium Elites. It know that this goes completely against the overall
feelings of most of the vocal members of this group but the Ksyrium Elite
wheel has lasted more that three times longer than any of the hand built
wheels...and it had made zero trips to the LBS to get trued. Before anyone
says that I just got a bad builder I had the wheel built at three different
places. Each time I spoke to the owner, or lead tech, to explain my
situation and asked that the wheel be built by their best wheel builder.

roger-<< This is my bike:

http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0md
o1uybug.j27008 >><BR><BR>
<< I had about 200 miles on it until April 17,
now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount recently.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

<< My bike has these wheels:
"Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set" >><BR><BR>
<< I weigh 235 to 240 lbs. >><BR><BR>
<< Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear wheel and
it got out of true. >><BR><BR>

<< The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. >><BR><BR>

The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold you the bicycle. Go
to her, in private, and tell her she needs to have an appropriate for you
wheelset built. Shimano hubs onto a 36 hole rim, built well. If she won't, ask
for your money back and go to a bike shop that has a clue. Also call
Specialized.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

craig-<< If you can remember, did you hear any pinging noises coming from
your wheels when the bike was brand new? That is a telltale sign of an
improperly stress-releived wheel, and indicates spokes seating and
unwinding, >><BR><BR>

Stress relieving does not necessarily take windup out of spokes. They are two
different issues, with two different 'techniques'.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

bobmc-<< It know that this goes completely against the overall
feelings of most of the vocal members of this group but the Ksyrium Elite
wheel has lasted more that three times longer than any of the hand built
wheels.. >><BR><BR>

Then ya still need a new wheelbuilder.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"

dianne_1234 wrote:
:: On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::: This is my bike:
:::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008
::
:: Nice bike!
::
::: My bike has these wheels:
::: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"
::
:: Only the paired spoke design is Rolf's, and that's really over a
:: century old. This design detail has nothing to do with your wheel
:: breaking spokes.
::
::: I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
::
:: A little on the heavy side for a wheel with only 28 spokes, but still
:: not a cause for spokes to break.
::
::: The folks over
::: in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping
::
:: I agree.
::
::: and that I should have the wheel rebuilt
::
:: This shouldn't be necessary to stop spokes breaking if the spokes are
:: a reasonable fit in the hub holes. More below.
::
::: (I don't know what that means yet).
::
:: A rebuild is replacing the spokes, and the rim if it's damaged, and
:: re-tensioning the wheel.
::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills
::: in too
::: high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.
::
:: Clearly, she doesn't know why spokes break. You should be able to
:: pedal as hard as you like and not break any spokes by doing so.

Thanks a lot for the helpful comments, Dianne. I'm still working through
all of it...I'm going to look into getting the wheels rebuilt and then I'll
likely go to a new wheel set, either selling the Rolf's or storing them. I
just feel a lack of confidence in riding long distances with such a great
possibility of wheel failure and having to "limp" home.

::
::: Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
::
:: Unless there is some material flaw or dimensional anomaly in your
:: wheels, here's a sure fix to prevent broken spokes:
::
:: 1. Measure the spoke elbow. If it's 6.5mm or less, the spokes are a
:: good fit in almost any hub's holes. If 7.0mm or more, have them
:: replaced.[1] Dimension E is what you're measuring, shown here:
:: <http://www.cnspoke.com/products/measure.htm>
::
:: 2. Replace any broken spokes.
::
:: 3. Adjust hop, wobble, tension and dish. Aim for about 100 kg average
:: tension on the right side spokes. Lube nipples and spoke threads as
:: needed. The shop can easily do this.
::
:: ** And here's the secret ingredient to preventing broken spokes: **
:: 4. Stress relieve the wheel.[2] Basically, squeeze sets of four
:: spokes
:: in your hands. Go around the wheel repeating until every spoke has
:: been momentarily over-tensioned like this.
::
:: Many shop mechanic wheel builders squeeze spokes like this, but few
:: squeeze hard enough or know that this relieves stress in the spokes
:: and prevents broken spokes. The harder the squeeze, the better the
:: resistance to spoke breakage.
::
:: How hard?
:: - Wear padded leather gloves. It'll hurt your bare hands otherwise.
:: - Squeeze hard to try and break any spokes that might be about to
:: break. Squeeze really hard. I dare you to break a spoke! :-)
::
:: 5. Readjust hop, wobble, tension and dish as above.
::
:: [1] More details on elbow length here:
:: <http://www.peterwhitecycles.com/DTspokes.htm>
::
:: [2] More details on stress relieving spokes here:
:: <http://yarchive.net/bike/stress_relieve.html>

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
:: roger-<< This is my bike:
::
::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0md
:: o1uybug.j27008 >><BR><BR>
:: << I had about 200 miles on it until April 17,
:: now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount
:: recently.
:::: <BR><BR>
:: << My bike has these wheels:
:: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"
:: >><BR><BR> << I weigh 235 to 240 lbs. >><BR><BR>
:: << Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
:: wheel and it got out of true. >><BR><BR>
::
::
:: << The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up
:: hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the
:: rear wheel. >><BR><BR>
::
:: The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold you the
:: bicycle. Go to her, in private, and tell her she needs to have an
:: appropriate for you wheelset built. Shimano hubs onto a 36 hole rim,
:: built well. If she won't, ask for your money back and go to a bike
:: shop that has a clue. Also call Specialized.

That's a really good idea, Peter, thanks.

Rick Warner wrote:
:: On Sat, 29 May 2004 18:00:52 -0400, "Roger Zoul"
:: <[email hidden]> wrote:
::
::
::: Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
::: wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the
::: LBS. I did another 30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the
::: route was fairly easy in terms of hills. Today, while on a ride at
::: about 25 miles out, I popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a
::: route similar to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking
::: home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over
::: in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I
::: should have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).
::
:: I will be even more radical. Those wheels are good for show, and for
:: lighter riders. But they are a pain from several aspects. If it
:: were me, I would get a good set of custom built wheels, with
:: sufficient spokes and strength to handle you and your riding style.
:: Actually, it was me. The Rolfs are in the storage area, and the
:: custom made wheels (Open Pro rims, Ultegra hubs) are on the bike.

What about this Peter White guy? He offers lifetime if you go with what he
suggests...I want this problem to go away...

::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills
::: in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear
::: wheel. I generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of
::: hills here in upstate SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying
::: to keep it at or above 60. I do end up shifting down as I go up
::: the hill, as it's sometimes hard to know what gear i really need to
::: be in (I find hills deceptive -- some look really hard but turn out
::: to be easy while others look easy but turn out to be
::: hard -- what's up with that?).
::
:: Poppycock. The problem is the wheel, not your riding style. I ride
:: a
:: fair amount, and a lot of it is in the hills (6000-8000 miles/year,
:: 400K-500K ft of climbing). When climbing you should be shifting so
:: that you can turn a good cadence and keeping your HR under control,
:: not because it is better for your wheels. If your riding style is
:: the problem (which I do not believe) then wheels that fit your riding
:: style are the solution; match the equipment to you, not you to the
:: equipment.

I agree 100%. The suggestion that I always shift to granny gear on any hill
to protect my wheels is nuts, imo.

[email hidden] wrote:

::
::: I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion that they
::: are somehow designed for speed.
::
:: Not really. They are designed to make you think of speed, the
:: difference being only measurable with a stop watch at maximum effort.
:: They aren't lighter nor are they pleasant to ride in winds.

Why would they not be pleasant to ride in winds? Is there some design
feature?.

::
::: I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
::
:: Work on that.

Absolutely...

::
::: Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
::: wheel and it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the
::: LBS. I did another 30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route
::: was fairly easy in terms of hills. Today, while on a ride at about
::: 25 miles out, I popped another spoke on the rear wheel on a route
::: similar to the first one, but longer. I ended up walking home. The
::: LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The folks over in .misc
::: think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I should
::: have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).
::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills
::: in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear
::: wheel. I generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of
::: hills here in upstate SC - Greenville) according to cadence, trying
::: to keep it at or above 60.
::
:: The guy doesn't understand bicycles. The torque in a rear wheel is
:: independent of gear ratio for any given speed in the flat and is
:: smoother with lower peaks for hill climbing in big gears (low
:: cadence). Therefore, he is making this up as a cover for his poor
:: wheel building. I suspect he doesn't understand stress relieving
:: spokes after building a wheel.

Likely...

::
::: I do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes
::: hard to know what gear I really need to be in (I find hills
::: deceptive -- some look really hard but turn out to be easy while
::: others look easy but turn out to be hard -- what's up with that?).
::
:: I think you are confusing the effects of short hills with long ones,

No doubt...it's usually the long ones that look fearful but are easier and
the short ones that look hard but are relatively hard.

:: or ones that you approach rested or already near your limit.

Yes, you are correct, I think.

RR
:: under- or over-passes are steep hills but insignificant as climbs.
:: All that has nothing to do with the reliability of your wheels. Just
:: the same, low spoke count wheels are not as durable as conventional
:: 36
:: spoke road wheels.

Noted.

RWM wrote:
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: This is my bike:
:::
:::
::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0mdo1uybug.j27008
:::
::: which I bought last September. I had about 200 miles on it until
::: April
:: 17,
::: now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount
::: recently.
:::
::: My bike has these wheels:
:::
::: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"
:::
::: I don't know anything about Rolf but I'm getting a notion that they
::: are
::: somehow designed for speed 🙂
:::
::: I weigh 235 to 240 lbs.
:::
::: Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
::: wheel
:: and
::: it got out of true. I got it fixed on Wednesday at the LBS. I did
:: another
::: 30 miles on Thursday, no problems, but the route was fairly easy in
::: terms
:: of
::: hills. Today, while on a ride at about 25 miles out, I popped
::: another
:: spoke
::: on the rear wheel on a route similar to the first one, but longer.
::: I
:: ended
::: up walking home. The LBS fixed it and trued the wheel again. The
::: folks
:: over
::: in .misc think that these spokes ought not to be popping and that I
::: should
::: have the wheel rebuilt (I don't know what that means yet).
:::
::: The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills
::: in too
::: high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel. I
::: generally ride up hills (there are a goodly amount of hills here in
:: upstate
::: SC - Greenville) according to cadance, trying to keep it at or
::: above 60.
:: I
::: do end up shifting down as I go up the hill, as it's sometimes hard
::: to
:: know
::: what gear i really need to be in (I find hills deceptive -- some
::: look
:: really
::: hard but turn out to be easy while others look easy but turn out to
::: be
::: hard -- what's up with that?).
:::
::: Any comments/advice/suggestion would be greatly appreciated.
::
:: I have had lots of problems with breaking rear wheel spokes. My
:: advice is
:: to look at the Mavic Ksyrium Elite wheels. I replied to another post
:: earlier today with my results with 36 spoke hand built wheels. The
:: summary
:: is that I have had horrible results with them but great results with
:: the
:: Ksyrium Elites. It know that this goes completely against the
:: overall
:: feelings of most of the vocal members of this group but the Ksyrium
:: Elite
:: wheel has lasted more that three times longer than any of the hand
:: built
:: wheels...and it had made zero trips to the LBS to get trued. Before
:: anyone
:: says that I just got a bad builder I had the wheel built at three
:: different
:: places. Each time I spoke to the owner, or lead tech, to explain my
:: situation and asked that the wheel be built by their best wheel
:: builder.

Did your handbuilt wheel come with a lifetime guarantee? That guy Peter
White offers such if you go with his suggestions. I'd rather not have to
keep working through various solutions on wheels to arrive at one that
finally works. I need this problem to go away so I can devote my attention
to riding and trying to improve.

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
:: roger-<< This is my bike:
::
::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0md
:: o1uybug.j27008 >><BR><BR>
:: << I had about 200 miles on it until April 17,
:: now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount
:: recently.
:::: <BR><BR>
:: << My bike has these wheels:
:: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"
:: >><BR><BR> << I weigh 235 to 240 lbs. >><BR><BR>
:: << Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
:: wheel and it got out of true. >><BR><BR>
::
::
:: << The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up
:: hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the
:: rear wheel. >><BR><BR>
::
:: The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold you the
:: bicycle. Go to her, in private, and tell her she needs to have an
:: appropriate for you wheelset built. Shimano hubs onto a 36 hole rim,
:: built well. If she won't, ask for your money back and go to a bike
:: shop that has a clue. Also call Specialized.
::

I'm concerned that no one at this bikeshop really knows anything about
wheelbuilding (obviously the owner doesn't). The very young lady who trued
my wheel the first time had to put it back on the machine because even I
could see it was not true laterally and she saw that it wasn't true
radially. I don't know who trued the wheel the second time, but I had no
problems today on a short 25-mile ride -- I was lacking confidence that I'd
wouldn't break down and end up with another long stroll, which would have
been in a thunderstorm, as it turns out.

If I need to find a wheel builder, how do you suggest I proceed? I live in
Greenville SC. What about Peter White? He offers lifetime if you go with
his suggestions. I like to notion of that since obviously he intends to
back up what he does.

Thanks for your comments.

:

Roger Zoul said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
:: roger-<< This is my bike:
::
::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0md
:: o1uybug.j27008 >><BR><BR>
:: << I had about 200 miles on it until April 17,
:: now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount
:: recently.
:::: <BR><BR>
:: << My bike has these wheels:
:: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"
:: >><BR><BR> << I weigh 235 to 240 lbs. >><BR><BR>
:: << Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
:: wheel and it got out of true. >><BR><BR>
::
::
:: << The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up
:: hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the
:: rear wheel. >><BR><BR>
::
:: The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold you the
:: bicycle. Go to her, in private, and tell her she needs to have an
:: appropriate for you wheelset built. Shimano hubs onto a 36 hole rim,
:: built well. If she won't, ask for your money back and go to a bike
:: shop that has a clue. Also call Specialized.
::

I'm concerned that no one at this bikeshop really knows anything about
wheelbuilding (obviously the owner doesn't). The very young lady who trued
my wheel the first time had to put it back on the machine because even I
could see it was not true laterally and she saw that it wasn't true
radially. I don't know who trued the wheel the second time, but I had no
problems today on a short 25-mile ride -- I was lacking confidence that I'd
wouldn't break down and end up with another long stroll, which would have
been in a thunderstorm, as it turns out.

If I need to find a wheel builder, how do you suggest I proceed? I live in
Greenville SC. What about Peter White? He offers lifetime if you go with
his suggestions. I like to notion of that since obviously he intends to
back up what he does.

Thanks for your comments.

:

Lifetime warranty sounds like a good idea. Back when I was up around
240 pounds a few years ago I was breaking spokes on a 36 spoke rim.
Always on the drive side of the rear wheel and always shortly after
riding hard up steep overpasses. My local bike shop said I should buy
what he called a double rim, I decided to retension and stress relieve
the wheel as well as lose weight instead. There is more stress on
spokes pushing hard up a hill with extra weight, it takes a lot less
torque to maintain your speed up hills once you lose weight. In the
meantime a warranty might help with your peace of mind, although any
well built 36 spoke wheel should handle your extra weight.

Roger Zoul said:

If I need to find a wheel builder, how do you suggest I proceed? I live in
Greenville SC. What about Peter White? He offers lifetime if you go with
his suggestions. I like to notion of that since obviously he intends to
back up what he does.

I'd be hesitant to get wheels from New Hampshire while I lived in
South Carolina, or even while I lived in New Jersey, simply because of
a warranty. Shipping bicycle wheels is not cheap.

For a local builder, are there any local bike clubs or organizations?
Racing groups? Ask around and ask for recommendations.

Along with Peter White, there are other excellent wheel builders
around the country. Including people who post here regularly, like
Peter Chisholm. You might start a new thread about how to find and
evaluate wheel builders?

Bicycle wheels should not be a source of constant worry! I couldn't
deal with your situation, wondering each time I headed out if I was
going to have a breakdown. In all my years of cycling I haven't had a
spoke break after I took the time to learn how to work on my own
wheels. A suggestion- find a mid-priced traditional bike wheel- mail
order sale, local used, whatever- and learn how to true and tension
on it. And then plan on building a wheel. In the meantime, find some
quality well-built wheels and go out and enjoy your rides without
worrying!

In article <[email hidden]>, "Roger Zoul"

Quoted message said:

The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up hills in too
high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the rear wheel.

Interesting . . . do you put less stress on the wheel at the same speed but in
a lower gear (but higher cadence)?

Perhaps I should say "funny."

Consider a 36 spoke 4X rear wheel. If it's properly built and stress relieved
you can climb in any gear you want.

Tom Gibb <[email hidden]>

Roger Zoul said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo wrote:
:: roger-<< This is my bike:
::
::
http://www.specialized.com/SBCBkModel.jsp?spid=5863&JServSessionIdroot=0md
:: o1uybug.j27008 >><BR><BR>
:: << I had about 200 miles on it until April 17,
:: now I have almost 800 miles. I've been riding a fair amount
:: recently.
:::: <BR><BR>
:: << My bike has these wheels:
:: "Rolf design 700c twin spoke design high performance wheel set"
:: >><BR><BR> << I weigh 235 to 240 lbs. >><BR><BR>
:: << Last Tuesday, after riding 30 miles, I popped a spoke on the rear
:: wheel and it got out of true. >><BR><BR>
::
::
:: << The owner of the LBS told me today that she thinks I ride up
:: hills in too high a gear, and doing so puts a lot of stress on the
:: rear wheel. >><BR><BR>
::
:: The bike shop owner is clueless, particularly if she sold you the
:: bicycle. Go to her, in private, and tell her she needs to have an
:: appropriate for you wheelset built. Shimano hubs onto a 36 hole rim,
:: built well. If she won't, ask for your money back and go to a bike
:: shop that has a clue. Also call Specialized.
::

I'm concerned that no one at this bikeshop really knows anything about
wheelbuilding (obviously the owner doesn't). The very young lady who trued
my wheel the first time had to put it back on the machine because even I
could see it was not true laterally and she saw that it wasn't true
radially. I don't know who trued the wheel the second time, but I had no
problems today on a short 25-mile ride -- I was lacking confidence that I'd
wouldn't break down and end up with another long stroll, which would have
been in a thunderstorm, as it turns out.

With a 36 spoke wheel you would not have to worry about walking home
even if you did break a spoke. They will roll along quite nicely till
you can get a chance for a replacement. In the past I have ridden
over 30 miles with a broken spoke on my 36 spoke hub, screwed in a
replacement spoke and not had to mess around with retrueing.

Quoted message said:

If I need to find a wheel builder, how do you suggest I proceed? I live in
Greenville SC. What about Peter White? He offers lifetime if you go with
his suggestions. I like to notion of that since obviously he intends to
back up what he does.

Thanks for your comments.

: