Breaking Spokes

'Bottom posted'...

"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in small part in message
news:[email hidden]...
|
| I hope the 3rd edition is the
| last.
|
|

Why do you write that? Is it a snide crack? Inquiring minds ... and all
that.

Doug Huffman wrote:
:: 'Bottom posted'...
::
::
:: "Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in small part in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
:::
::: I hope the 3rd edition is the
::: last.
:::
:::
::
:: Why do you write that? Is it a snide crack? Inquiring minds ...
:: and all that.

No, not at all...I was afraid I had bought an older edition rather than the
most recent one. I'm way too much of a bicycling noob to be snide-cracking
here. Show of over in the low carb ng is you want to see me doing that 🙂

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

'Bottom posted'...
"Roger Zoul" <[email hidden]> wrote in small part in message
news:[email hidden]...
| I hope the 3rd edition is the
| last.

Why do you write that? Is it a snide crack? Inquiring minds ... and all
that.

No, I think he meant that he ordered the 3rd edition, so he hopes that is
the latest edition of the book.
--------------
Alex

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

You edited the message wrong. It went like this:

Quoted message said:

But how do you "ruin" the rim? Did it become impossible to true
after?

Yes.

OK, this is making less and less sense. I've had to ride home on
broken spokes more than 50 miles on occasion, and over 10 miles on
several occasions- happily not in years. I've never ruined a rim by
riding on it with a broken spoke- and I've weighed over 195 lbs since
I was a sophomore in high school back in 1974. I built my first
wheels in 1978 and finally retired those in 1994. I don't recall any
spoke breakages in those wheels, but I have had spokes break in OEM
prebuilt wheels and in one wheel I built using cheap Asahi spokes;
otherwise I find 32 spoke wheels quite adequate.

When you say the rim was "not truable," by whom was it not truable?

Basically it sounds like your wheels have been built up by people who
didn't know what they were doing- how to properly tension the spokes,
remove spoke windup and stress relieve them to prevent breakage. A
wheel should go 50,000 miles at least without breaking a spoke, IMHO.
This is not hard to achieve once the principles and procedures of good
wheel building are known.

The rims were declared not truable by the service department of LBS. I was
shocked and asked that more senior techs give a second opinion and all the
techs agreed. With the Open Pro rim one spoke actually pulled through the
rim and it was instant trash.

I weigh 245 lbs so I think that I am seeing problems that lighter riders
never see.

The thing that is frustrating to me is that I took appropriate steps to
getting wheels built. I went to good shops, explained my situation with
breaking rear spokes, always took the shops recommendations as to the best
parts for me, asked that the wheels be built by their best wheel builder,
and brought the wheels back to the shop for maintenance if there was any
sign loose spokes or being out of true but I still did not get a wheel to
last 500 miles. Most of the replies are either "build your own wheels, it
not rocket surgery", or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what
they were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy wheels? I
am also frustrated that there is an elitist attitude that hand built wheels
are the only way to go and that only fools buy ready made wheelsets. I have
had much more fun on my rides since I switched to the Ksyrium Elite rear
wheel.

Old Crow or was it Wild Turkey said:

Quoted message said:

My reference to a kink is one induced by, for instance, a wheel
collapse in which a spoke is doubled back on itself or one in which
the wheel fell on an unoccupied pedal and got snagged by a
projecting part in a crash. These are sharp bends in the middle of
a spoke. Ones that cannot be straightened by anything but a hammer
and smooth surface to fatten the kink, and even then it is doubtful
to be durable. In effect an unsupported "elbow".

Quoted message said:

Understood, but there are two types of "sharp" bend. The bending
that has a comparatively large radius like a straightened paper
clip, or the minor bend which has a very small radius like a chain
gouge. The smaller the radius, the greater the stress concentration
& the greater fatigue propensity. The large radius bend induces
similar effects in the material to "correcting the line".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> Even smooth bends have practically no effect on spoke life.
> Replacement spokes must often be bent to insert them into the
> hub. The main thing is to stress relieve them after truing.
> That's what assures durability for high quality spokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Interesting qualification - that high quality spokes assure
durability. Can it therefore be inferred that you don't feel
confident that "stress relief" has the same magical properties of
infinite fatigue life on poor quality spokes? If so, what would be
the differentiator?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see you didn't live in the days of Stella and Robergel spokes from
which I discovered the benefits of stress relieving.

Quoted message said:

But I'm not too old to still find wheels with these spokes at swap
meets.

So? What is it that is unclear about why these spokes fail so rapidly
and why stress relieving reduces their failure rate as you see it?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These spokes broke after such short duty that a large statistical
trend was discernable by stress relieving although that did not
stop spoke failures entirely. It was with the advent of DT spokes
that truly durable spokes became available. Now there are several
brands that work well.

Quoted message said:

Yes, there are now several brands that work well. But their long life
is not the product of "stress relief"; it's the fact that in the 70's,
it became economic to mass produce vacuum degassed steels. Ultra-clean
materials like this are substantially more fatigue resistant because
this process virtually eliminates inclusions, thereby removing a
significant source of fatigue initiation.

Oh? So how do you explain the reports of repeated failures in wheels
with these spokes, ones built by people who, as you, don't believe
that stress relief is useful or don't know about it.

How about an experiment? One that I have done. I take it that you
have access to materials testing equipment from what you write. Take
a spoke and manually give it some kinks with as small a radius as you
can. Tension that spoke to customary service tension in a tensile
tester using a simulated 3mm flange hole and holder for a spoke
nipple. I think you'll notice that when relaxed again, the spoke will
still have kinks, kinks that in service would lead to fatigue failure.

Now, tension the spoke to the yield stress and relax it again. I
think you'll see a perfectly straight spoke with no residual stress.
If that is not stress relieving, then you may have abetter word for
it. Let me know what you find.

Quoted message said:

A traditional steel for example may have half the fatigue limit in the
transverse axis of a rolled sheet compared to its longitudinal axis.
The same alloy composition, but vacuum degassed, may have very similar
fatigue limits in both orientations. When first seen, the observation
of this effect sparked a hunt for explanation. Electron microscopy
subsequently confirmed fatigue initiation at tiny inclusions previously
thought to be insignificantly small.

So what does this have to do with stress relieving or not?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I have described here often, spoke wire must be ductile enough to
withstand cold forming yet retain a sufficiently high yield strength
to resist fatigue failures at normal spoke loadings. This had not
been so before DT spokes so there is where you should look for the
answer. Redaelli, Berg, and Prym spokes also did not survive long
even with stress relieving although it extended their service life.

I see you have no comment on the high ductility and high tensile
strength of DT spoke wire.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's interesting how you're so very careful with your claims; when
challenged you fall back on your personal use of just one brand of
top quality spoke, as if it were proof across the whole
mechanical/materials spectrum.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You create these characterizations of thin air to your liking. Every
so often someone with your attitude shows up here on wreck.bike to
attack what has been discovered about bicycle parts apparently trying
to defend myth and lore from days gone by. I can't see any other goal
but then you never said what you believe is the cause of failures.
Instead of beating around the bush and insinuating and alluding to
some agenda, how about stating what it is you believe is occurring.

Quoted message said:

What causes failures is well known. It's what alleviates them that
seems to be the issue here. All that "stress relief" achieves is a
wheel that is fully bedded in before riding. Spokes do not
therefore loosen and others do not therefore carry disproportionate
load. In that respect, the practice referred to as "stress relief"
is a good thing, and thoroughly to be commended. But the business
of fatigue mitigation itself is achieved in the spoke manufacturers
factory, not the wheel builders bench.

"Well known"? From what you just said, it seems not to be. Bedding
in is already complete when spokes are tensioned and even if it
weren't, subsequent bedding in from use cannot relax the tension of a
spoke, the change in length being insignificant compared to spoke
elastic stretch from tensioning. However, even if it did, your model
of overloaded spokes cannot explain the failure of left side spokes in
rear wheels that have as little as half the tension of those on the
right. Beyond these considerations, high spoke tension is generally
in the range of 1/3 the yield stress of a spoke.

Would you explain your understanding of spoke failure in this respect?

Quoted message said:

The explanation of "local yielding" you've presented as theory on
how to eliminate fatigue is unfortunately built on some gross
misconceptions. You assert that the steel in spokes exhibits the
same properties as mild steel, i.e. the exhibition of yield and
deformation without work hardening as a method of reducing residual
stress.

Where do you find that "unfortunate" scenario? I haven't proposed
anything of the sort. I see a straw man raising his head. Where is
Ray Bolger when we need him. He's probably out there on a yellow
brick road commiserating heart warmingly with a tin man.

Quoted message said:

Reality is, stainless steel spoke wires /do/ work harden immediately
from yield, as the real-life spoke stress/strain graphs in the back
of your book show. "Stress relief" therefore has the ability to not
only continue increasing the dislocation density of the material
[which /increases/ lattice stresses] at any point where it does
yield, [/if/ it yields, and that's conjecture], but to also activate
slip bands and initiate cumulative damage effects.

I am reminded of Richard Feynman's appropriate words: "If you can't
explain it in plain English, you probably don't understand it yourself."

Quoted message said:

The closest analogy to your explanation is something called
"coaxing" where a component is progressively loaded and fatigue
limits improved, but unfortunately, this effect is only present in
materials that exhibit strain aging. Stainless steel is not one of
them.

I see. Now it is specifically stainless steel that makes spokes not
fail. Are you proposing that other steel components on bicycles, such
as axles, cables, frames and the like, would be more durable in such
alloys?

Quoted message said:

So, you want to know my agenda? Update your book and get rid of the
glaring materials theory errors! And please include the differential
spoke tension formula for dished wheels while you're at it.

What sort of "differential spoke tension formula" are you suggesting
and for what would this be useful, considering that the difference is
dependent on the hub offset, something that cannot be changed. The
graphic description in the book makes that fairly clear as wheel as
what the results are.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Most of the replies are either "build your own wheels, it
not rocket surgery", or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what
they were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy wheels?

You got three people who don't know how to properly build wheels. Isn't
the answer obvious? It isn't rocket science, but it does require you to
do all the right things. Unfortunately you can't look at a wheel and tell
if it was properly built. You can see if the wheel is true and if the
tension is even, but you can't tell if they stress relieved the spokes.

Quoted message said:

I
am also frustrated that there is an elitist attitude that hand built wheels
are the only way to go and that only fools buy ready made wheelsets.

Not elitest at all. It is just that if you can get a good wheel builder,
custom hand made wheels are a better value for your money.

Quoted message said:

I have
had much more fun on my rides since I switched to the Ksyrium Elite rear
wheel.

Unfortunately this is what happens because a lot of shops don't have a
competent wheel builder. A customer has no choice but to buy over priced
pre-built wheels. This is one reason to build your own wheels. The
investment is small and the rewards are great.
------------
Alex

"RWM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Of course I could learn to build a great wheel, but I would rather spend my
free time riding and I think that you missed my major point. I tried really
hard, many times, to purchase a reliable hand built 36 spoke rear wheel.
The longest any of them lasted was under 500 miles! I purchased a "wheel in
a box" and have had wonderful results for over 1500 miles. The advice that
is constantly voiced in this group is that hand built wheels are better, but
there are at least two heavy riders who have had great results with the
Mavic Ksyrium Elite rear wheels.

If they lasted only 500 miles there is a problem, either in materials
or technique. I built a set of 36 spoke wheels this winter. Took me
an evening. Have almost 1000 miles, mostly 'loaded' (e.g., carrying
panniers filled with stuff). Still true as the night I built them,
not a complaint from the spokes.
I expect the same will be true at 10K miles. If past experience is a
guide, I can expect to wear the braking surface down before anything
else goes. Simple task for a rainy night, since I do not ride on
rainy nights unless I have to :-)

Wait until you pop a spoke on the Ksyrium's. If you are not near a
major city, expect to wait a while if you want one of those fancy
spokes as a replacement.

- rick

Alex Rodriguez said:

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]
says...

Quoted message said:

Most of the replies are either "build your own wheels, it not rocket
surgery", or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what they
were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy wheels?

You got three people who don't know how to properly build wheels. Isn't
the answer obvious? It isn't rocket science, but it does require you to
do all the right things. Unfortunately you can't look at a wheel and
tell if it was properly built. You can see if the wheel is true and if
the tension is even, but you can't tell if they stress relieved the
spokes.

Fortunately, stress relieving a second time doesn't hurt, and is easy to
do, so you can just do it yourself when you get home even if you don't
want to build your own wheels.

--
Benjamin Lewis

Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.
-- Walt Kelly

On 30 May 2004 13:53:32 GMT, [email hidden] (Qui si parla

Campagnolo ) said:

Stress relieving does not necessarily take windup out of spokes. They are two
different issues, with two different 'techniques'.

I've deluded myself into thining I've found an easy way to alleviate
windup. When the wheel is near finished, I put a tire w/o air on it
and ride it around the street. I take the wheel back and check the
true again and rarely need to do anything. No pinging noises on the
first ride.

"Rick Warner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"RWM" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Of course I could learn to build a great wheel, but I would rather spend

my

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

free time riding and I think that you missed my major point. I tried

really

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

hard, many times, to purchase a reliable hand built 36 spoke rear wheel.
The longest any of them lasted was under 500 miles! I purchased a

"wheel in

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a box" and have had wonderful results for over 1500 miles. The advice

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

is constantly voiced in this group is that hand built wheels are better,

but

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

there are at least two heavy riders who have had great results with the
Mavic Ksyrium Elite rear wheels.

If they lasted only 500 miles there is a problem, either in materials
or technique. I built a set of 36 spoke wheels this winter. Took me
an evening. Have almost 1000 miles, mostly 'loaded' (e.g., carrying
panniers filled with stuff). Still true as the night I built them,
not a complaint from the spokes.
I expect the same will be true at 10K miles. If past experience is a
guide, I can expect to wear the braking surface down before anything
else goes. Simple task for a rainy night, since I do not ride on
rainy nights unless I have to :-)

Wait until you pop a spoke on the Ksyrium's. If you are not near a
major city, expect to wait a while if you want one of those fancy
spokes as a replacement.

- rick

I purchased 4 drive side and 4 non drive side spokes when I got the wheel.

RWM said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

You edited the message wrong. It went like this:

> But how do you "ruin" the rim? Did it become impossible to true
> after?
>
Yes.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say the rim was "not truable," by whom was it not truable?

The rims were declared not truable by the service department of LBS.
I was shocked and asked that more senior techs give a second opinion
and all the techs agreed. With the Open Pro rim one spoke actually
pulled through the rim and it was instant trash.

I'd have been shocked and skeptical to say the least. Now, I don't
like the Open Pro or any anodized rims, having had a string of
failures in which the rims cracked around the spoke holes. I've
cracked an Open Pro, but the spoke didn't pull through the rim- it
couldn't because there's a big metal socket around the nipple. If it
had, there's have been a hole bigger than 1 cm across left in the rim
and it would have probably been a very dramatic catastrophic failure.
Such a failure isn't from the wheel build but from a flaw in the rim.

Quoted message said:

I weigh 245 lbs so I think that I am seeing problems that lighter
riders never see.

Touring cyclists put these loads on wheels all the time. It's nothing
new. And they get thousands of miles of trouble-free performance.
Unless you're doing lots of sideways skids, slamming into curbs and
potholes, etc, this shouldn't be a problem. A properly built 36 spoke
wheel ought to be able to support close to an 800 pound load before
collapsing.

Quoted message said:

The thing that is frustrating to me is that I took appropriate steps
to getting wheels built. I went to good shops, explained my
situation with breaking rear spokes, always took the shops
recommendations as to the best parts for me, asked that the wheels
be built by their best wheel builder, and brought the wheels back to
the shop for maintenance if there was any sign loose spokes or being
out of true but I still did not get a wheel to last 500 miles. Most
of the replies are either "build your own wheels, it not rocket
surgery", or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what they
were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy wheels?

You may have gotten three bike shops that think they know how to build
wheels, but really don't. If I was to recommend a wheel to you, it
would be a 36 spoke Ultegra hub, with DT 14-15 gauge double butted
spokes, and a Mavic MA2 rim (which you're not going to find, in all
likelihood, it being out of production). Properly built, I'd be
nothing but astonished if that didn't work well for you for many many
more than 500 miles. You'd need to go with a different rim, perhaps a
Torelli Master which is similar to an MA2.

Quoted message said:

I am also frustrated that there is an elitist attitude that hand
built wheels are the only way to go and that only fools buy ready
made wheelsets.

You're reading more into people's comments than there is.

Quoted message said:

I have had much more fun on my rides since I switched to the Ksyrium
Elite rear wheel.

And good luck to you- and carry a cell phone. If you break a spoke,
those wheels will be instantly unrideable.

Comments in the body of the message.

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"RWM" <[email hidden]> writes:

> You edited the message wrong. It went like this:
>
>> But how do you "ruin" the rim? Did it become impossible to true
>> after?
>>
> Yes.

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

When you say the rim was "not truable," by whom was it not truable?

The rims were declared not truable by the service department of LBS.
I was shocked and asked that more senior techs give a second opinion
and all the techs agreed. With the Open Pro rim one spoke actually
pulled through the rim and it was instant trash.

I'd have been shocked and skeptical to say the least. Now, I don't
like the Open Pro or any anodized rims, having had a string of
failures in which the rims cracked around the spoke holes. I've
cracked an Open Pro, but the spoke didn't pull through the rim- it
couldn't because there's a big metal socket around the nipple. If it
had, there's have been a hole bigger than 1 cm across left in the rim
and it would have probably been a very dramatic catastrophic failure.
Such a failure isn't from the wheel build but from a flaw in the rim.

Yep, you have it right. The metal socket, and spoke, pulled right through
the rim. You were also right that it was catastropic to me. I was going up
a steep hill and suddenly there was a bang. I tried riding home but there
was no way. I called a friend to get me.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I weigh 245 lbs so I think that I am seeing problems that lighter
riders never see.

Touring cyclists put these loads on wheels all the time. It's nothing
new. And they get thousands of miles of trouble-free performance.
Unless you're doing lots of sideways skids, slamming into curbs and
potholes, etc, this shouldn't be a problem. A properly built 36 spoke
wheel ought to be able to support close to an 800 pound load before
collapsing.

Quoted message said:

The thing that is frustrating to me is that I took appropriate steps
to getting wheels built. I went to good shops, explained my
situation with breaking rear spokes, always took the shops
recommendations as to the best parts for me, asked that the wheels
be built by their best wheel builder, and brought the wheels back to
the shop for maintenance if there was any sign loose spokes or being
out of true but I still did not get a wheel to last 500 miles. Most
of the replies are either "build your own wheels, it not rocket
surgery", or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what they
were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy wheels?

You may have gotten three bike shops that think they know how to build
wheels, but really don't. If I was to recommend a wheel to you, it
would be a 36 spoke Ultegra hub, with DT 14-15 gauge double butted
spokes, and a Mavic MA2 rim (which you're not going to find, in all
likelihood, it being out of production). Properly built, I'd be
nothing but astonished if that didn't work well for you for many many
more than 500 miles. You'd need to go with a different rim, perhaps a
Torelli Master which is similar to an MA2.

This is interesting. You described the exact wheel that one of the shops
built, but to be accurate I am not sure that spokes were DT. I think that
they were DT but not 100% sure. The rest of the wheel is accuate..with a 3X
pattern.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I am also frustrated that there is an elitist attitude that hand
built wheels are the only way to go and that only fools buy ready
made wheelsets.

You're reading more into people's comments than there is.

Quoted message said:

I have had much more fun on my rides since I switched to the Ksyrium
Elite rear wheel.

And good luck to you- and carry a cell phone. If you break a spoke,
those wheels will be instantly unrideable.

I think that I will leave the cell phone comment alone. There is a cell
phone thread that is running already.

Paul Kopit said:

Quoted message said:

Stress relieving does not necessarily take windup out of
spokes. They are two different issues, with two different
'techniques'.

Quoted message said:

I've deluded myself into thinking I've found an easy way to alleviate
windup. When the wheel is near finished, I put a tire w/o air on it
and ride it around the street. I take the wheel back and check the
true again and rarely need to do anything. No pinging noises on the
first ride.

It's much easier and reliable to develop an overshoot and back of
motion in your truing hand as is described in "the Bicycle Wheel" with
diagram of torque. Besides, after spokes untwist, trueness generally
changes and requires rework... that will re-introduce twist... in
infinite regression.

Jobst Brandt
[email hidden]

RWM wrote:
:: Comments in the body of the message.
::
:: "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:: news:[email hidden]...
::: "RWM" <[email hidden]> writes:
:::
:::: "Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
:::: news:[email hidden]...
::::: "RWM" <[email hidden]> writes:
:::::
:::::: You edited the message wrong. It went like this:
::::::
::::::: But how do you "ruin" the rim? Did it become impossible to true
::::::: after?
:::::::
:::::: Yes.
:::
::: <snip>
:::
::::: When you say the rim was "not truable," by whom was it not
::::: truable?
:::::
:::: The rims were declared not truable by the service department of
:::: LBS.
:::: I was shocked and asked that more senior techs give a second
:::: opinion and all the techs agreed. With the Open Pro rim one spoke
:::: actually pulled through the rim and it was instant trash.
:::
::: I'd have been shocked and skeptical to say the least. Now, I don't
::: like the Open Pro or any anodized rims, having had a string of
::: failures in which the rims cracked around the spoke holes. I've
::: cracked an Open Pro, but the spoke didn't pull through the rim- it
::: couldn't because there's a big metal socket around the nipple. If
::: it had, there's have been a hole bigger than 1 cm across left in
::: the rim
::: and it would have probably been a very dramatic catastrophic
::: failure. Such a failure isn't from the wheel build but from a flaw
::: in the rim.
:::
::
:: Yep, you have it right. The metal socket, and spoke, pulled right
:: through the rim. You were also right that it was catastropic to me.
:: I was going up a steep hill and suddenly there was a bang. I tried
:: riding home but there was no way. I called a friend to get me.
::
::
:::: I weigh 245 lbs so I think that I am seeing problems that lighter
:::: riders never see.
:::
::: Touring cyclists put these loads on wheels all the time. It's
::: nothing new. And they get thousands of miles of trouble-free
::: performance.
::: Unless you're doing lots of sideways skids, slamming into curbs and
::: potholes, etc, this shouldn't be a problem. A properly built 36
::: spoke wheel ought to be able to support close to an 800 pound load
::: before collapsing.
:::
:::: The thing that is frustrating to me is that I took appropriate
:::: steps
:::: to getting wheels built. I went to good shops, explained my
:::: situation with breaking rear spokes, always took the shops
:::: recommendations as to the best parts for me, asked that the wheels
:::: be built by their best wheel builder, and brought the wheels back
:::: to the shop for maintenance if there was any sign loose spokes or
:::: being out of true but I still did not get a wheel to last 500
:::: miles. Most
:::: of the replies are either "build your own wheels, it not rocket
:::: surgery", or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what
:::: they were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy
:::: wheels?
:::
::: You may have gotten three bike shops that think they know how to
::: build wheels, but really don't. If I was to recommend a wheel to
::: you, it
::: would be a 36 spoke Ultegra hub, with DT 14-15 gauge double butted
::: spokes, and a Mavic MA2 rim (which you're not going to find, in all
::: likelihood, it being out of production). Properly built, I'd be
::: nothing but astonished if that didn't work well for you for many
::: many more than 500 miles. You'd need to go with a different rim,
::: perhaps a Torelli Master which is similar to an MA2.
::
:: This is interesting. You described the exact wheel that one of the
:: shops built, but to be accurate I am not sure that spokes were DT.
:: I think that they were DT but not 100% sure. The rest of the wheel
:: is accuate..with a 3X pattern.
::
:::
:::: I am also frustrated that there is an elitist attitude that hand
:::: built wheels are the only way to go and that only fools buy ready
:::: made wheelsets.
:::
::: You're reading more into people's comments than there is.
:::
:::: I have had much more fun on my rides since I switched to the
:::: Ksyrium Elite rear wheel.
:::
::: And good luck to you- and carry a cell phone. If you break a spoke,
::: those wheels will be instantly unrideable.
::
:: I think that I will leave the cell phone comment alone. There is a
:: cell phone thread that is running already.

Having a cell phone with you is not the same as using it while riding.

Quoted message said:

Standard rim:
http://www.nashbar.com/profile_moreimages.cfm?&sku=6367

Is it just me, or does that "touring" wheelset have single-wall rims?

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Quoted message said:

Old Crow or was it Wild Turkey said:

Quoted message said:

My reference to a kink is one induced by, for instance, a wheel
collapse in which a spoke is doubled back on itself or one in which
the wheel fell on an unoccupied pedal and got snagged by a
projecting part in a crash. These are sharp bends in the middle of
a spoke. Ones that cannot be straightened by anything but a hammer
and smooth surface to fatten the kink, and even then it is doubtful
to be durable. In effect an unsupported "elbow".

Quoted message said:

Understood, but there are two types of "sharp" bend. The bending
that has a comparatively large radius like a straightened paper
clip, or the minor bend which has a very small radius like a chain
gouge. The smaller the radius, the greater the stress concentration
& the greater fatigue propensity. The large radius bend induces
similar effects in the material to "correcting the line".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>Even smooth bends have practically no effect on spoke life.
>>Replacement spokes must often be bent to insert them into the
>>hub. The main thing is to stress relieve them after truing.
>>That's what assures durability for high quality spokes.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>Interesting qualification - that high quality spokes assure
>durability. Can it therefore be inferred that you don't feel
>confident that "stress relief" has the same magical properties of
>infinite fatigue life on poor quality spokes? If so, what would be
>the differentiator?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I see you didn't live in the days of Stella and Robergel spokes from
which I discovered the benefits of stress relieving.

Quoted message said:

But I'm not too old to still find wheels with these spokes at swap
meets.

So? What is it that is unclear about why these spokes fail so rapidly
and why stress relieving reduces their failure rate as you see it?

i don't think your version of "stress relief" brings any metallurgical
change to the spokes, but it definitely builds a stronger more evenly
tensioned wheel. see below for my experiment last summer.

as explained before, one reason for failure of these spokes is their
"dirty" steels. another is the use of chrome plating. chrome is
brittle and cracks when the spokes get bent during build. these cracks
are /classic/ fatigue initiators.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

These spokes broke after such short duty that a large statistical
trend was discernable by stress relieving although that did not
stop spoke failures entirely. It was with the advent of DT spokes
that truly durable spokes became available. Now there are several
brands that work well.

Quoted message said:

Yes, there are now several brands that work well. But their long life
is not the product of "stress relief"; it's the fact that in the 70's,
it became economic to mass produce vacuum degassed steels. Ultra-clean
materials like this are substantially more fatigue resistant because
this process virtually eliminates inclusions, thereby removing a
significant source of fatigue initiation.

Oh? So how do you explain the reports of repeated failures in wheels
with these spokes, ones built by people who, as you, don't believe
that stress relief is useful or don't know about it.

which brand of spokes? the people i've asked for info on which brand of
spoke they've been breaking here on r.b.t. either don't seem to know or
will only admit to pre-built wheels which usually use no-name cheapo
stuff. the broken d.t.'s i have are all victims of chain gouge, so i
don't think they're much of a data point. and when spokes /do/ break,
the wheels usually get rebuilt with high quality after market
replacements, and miraculously, their problems seem to disappear!
coincidence?

Quoted message said:

How about an experiment? One that I have done. I take it that you
have access to materials testing equipment from what you write. Take
a spoke and manually give it some kinks with as small a radius as you
can. Tension that spoke to customary service tension in a tensile
tester using a simulated 3mm flange hole and holder for a spoke
nipple. I think you'll notice that when relaxed again, the spoke will
still have kinks,

agreed - i can repeat this experiment if you like. probably won't have
time to do it for several weeks, but it's easily done.

Quoted message said:

kinks that in service would lead to fatigue failure.

not necessarily more so than a spoke that's been bent to "correct the
line" or a spoke that's crossing another, particularly if that crossing
is closer to the hub than normal like 2x on a 32 spoke wheel. depends
on the extent of the kink doesn't it!

Quoted message said:

Now, tension the spoke to the yield stress and relax it again. I
think you'll see a perfectly straight spoke with no residual stress.
If that is not stress relieving, then you may have abetter word for
it. Let me know what you find.

well, for the metallurgical definition of stress relief, that would
require between 1% & 3% strain, and even then, that would typically be
done immediately after initial deformation to prevent any possible aging
effects. on a 296mm spoke, if we're conservative, 1% means 3mm
elongation making it unusable for its originally intended purpose.
being as we're not getting strain of that magnitude, you can't contend
that there's true metallurgical stress relief in a wheel build.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A traditional steel for example may have half the fatigue limit in the
transverse axis of a rolled sheet compared to its longitudinal axis.
The same alloy composition, but vacuum degassed, may have very similar
fatigue limits in both orientations. When first seen, the observation
of this effect sparked a hunt for explanation. Electron microscopy
subsequently confirmed fatigue initiation at tiny inclusions previously
thought to be insignificantly small.

So what does this have to do with stress relieving or not?

i'm trying to tell you /why/ modern spokes have such good fatigue
characteristics!!!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As I have described here often, spoke wire must be ductile enough to
withstand cold forming yet retain a sufficiently high yield strength
to resist fatigue failures at normal spoke loadings. This had not
been so before DT spokes so there is where you should look for the
answer. Redaelli, Berg, and Prym spokes also did not survive long
even with stress relieving although it extended their service life.

I see you have no comment on the high ductility and high tensile
strength of DT spoke wire.

what's to comment? you're the guy that was telling me a while back that
d.t. spokes were fully hard. you didn't respond to links showing the
tensile strength differences between 2.0 straight gauge, 2.0/1.8/2.0
butted and 2.0/1.5/2.0 butted - which are directly attributable to
continued work hardening.

http://www.google.com/groups?selm=P_r7c.13091%24R46.8853%40newssvr27.news.prodigy.com&output=gplain

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>It's interesting how you're so very careful with your claims; when
>challenged you fall back on your personal use of just one brand of
>top quality spoke, as if it were proof across the whole
>mechanical/materials spectrum.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You create these characterizations of thin air to your liking. Every
so often someone with your attitude shows up here on wreck.bike to
attack what has been discovered about bicycle parts apparently trying
to defend myth and lore from days gone by. I can't see any other goal
but then you never said what you believe is the cause of failures.
Instead of beating around the bush and insinuating and alluding to
some agenda, how about stating what it is you believe is occurring.

Quoted message said:

What causes failures is well known. It's what alleviates them that
seems to be the issue here. All that "stress relief" achieves is a
wheel that is fully bedded in before riding. Spokes do not
therefore loosen and others do not therefore carry disproportionate
load. In that respect, the practice referred to as "stress relief"
is a good thing, and thoroughly to be commended. But the business
of fatigue mitigation itself is achieved in the spoke manufacturers
factory, not the wheel builders bench.

"Well known"? From what you just said, it seems not to be.

the causes of fatigue are quite well known to metallurgists & materials
engineers. there's tons of stuff about that on the web.

Quoted message said:

Bedding
in is already complete when spokes are tensioned

i absolutely disagree. my hefty #210 hindquarters most definitely are
able to untrue a wheel that has not been properly bedded in. quickly
too. that's where the benefits of the "stress relief" wheel build
process are most apparent.

Quoted message said:

and even if it
weren't, subsequent bedding in from use cannot relax the tension of a
spoke, the change in length being insignificant compared to spoke
elastic stretch from tensioning.

this is not my experience. last summer, i /did/ build a wheel,
deliberately without "stress relief". it was evenly tensioned and
perfectly true before leaving the house. i took care to ensure no spoke
had any twist by marking them on one side before assembly so any torque
could easily be seen. it did not "ping" while riding. it was ~6mm out
of true after riding around just one block and some of the spokes were
almost completely slack. clearly there was measurable yielding of
/something/. as i think we both agree that spokes are loaded to less
than a third of their yield, it had to be something else - yielding of
soft aluminum hub holes & rim holes. hence the need to /properly/ bed
wheels in.

Quoted message said:

However, even if it did, your model
of overloaded spokes cannot explain the failure of left side spokes in
rear wheels that have as little as half the tension of those on the
right.

why not? if it means the spokes get higher cyclic load limits, i.e. the
difference between the maximum & minimum loads, or even /negative/
loads, i don't see any disparity at all! i have examples of spoke
failures where the elbows have fatigued from both the inside out, /and/
outside in! clearly in this situation, poor tension is a contributor.

Quoted message said:

Beyond these considerations, high spoke tension is generally
in the range of 1/3 the yield stress of a spoke.

which just happens to be about the same stress level we commonly see for
fatigue limits [_not_ to be confused with an endurance limits]. funny
coincidence that.

Quoted message said:

Would you explain your understanding of spoke failure in this respect?

Quoted message said:

The explanation of "local yielding" you've presented as theory on
how to eliminate fatigue is unfortunately built on some gross
misconceptions. You assert that the steel in spokes exhibits the
same properties as mild steel, i.e. the exhibition of yield and
deformation without work hardening as a method of reducing residual
stress.

Where do you find that "unfortunate" scenario? I haven't proposed
anything of the sort. I see a straw man raising his head. Where is
Ray Bolger when we need him. He's probably out there on a yellow
brick road commiserating heart warmingly with a tin man.

i don't have your book in front of me, but you show a stress/strain
graph for mild steel, i.e. one that exhibits strain aging, then iirc, go
on to discuss yielding without work hardening. if you knew the
distinction between a material that exhibits strain aging, mild steel,
and one that doesn't, stainless steel, you wouldn't have made that error.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Reality is, stainless steel spoke wires /do/ work harden immediately
from yield, as the real-life spoke stress/strain graphs in the back
of your book show. "Stress relief" therefore has the ability to not
only continue increasing the dislocation density of the material
[which /increases/ lattice stresses] at any point where it does
yield, [/if/ it yields, and that's conjecture], but to also activate
slip bands and initiate cumulative damage effects.

I am reminded of Richard Feynman's appropriate words: "If you can't
explain it in plain English, you probably don't understand it yourself."

"plain english" is relative. there are certain concepts that have their
own names. "dislocation" is one that is fundamental to deformation
theory, much like the host of sub-atomic particle names are to
fundamental to the physics of matter. there's no avoidance possible.
likewise "lattice". atoms in a crystal are arranged in a lattice.
that's pretty plain. these terms are all googleable.

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

"Tim McNamara" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

RWM said:

You edited the message wrong. It went like this:

>But how do you "ruin" the rim? Did it become impossible to true
>after?
>

Yes.

OK, this is making less and less sense. I've had to ride home on
broken spokes more than 50 miles on occasion, and over 10 miles on
several occasions- happily not in years. I've never ruined a rim by
riding on it with a broken spoke- and I've weighed over 195 lbs since
I was a sophomore in high school back in 1974. I built my first
wheels in 1978 and finally retired those in 1994. I don't recall any
spoke breakages in those wheels, but I have had spokes break in OEM
prebuilt wheels and in one wheel I built using cheap Asahi spokes;
otherwise I find 32 spoke wheels quite adequate.

When you say the rim was "not truable," by whom was it not truable?

Basically it sounds like your wheels have been built up by people who
didn't know what they were doing- how to properly tension the spokes,
remove spoke windup and stress relieve them to prevent breakage. A
wheel should go 50,000 miles at least without breaking a spoke, IMHO.
This is not hard to achieve once the principles and procedures of good
wheel building are known.

The rims were declared not truable by the service department of LBS. I was
shocked and asked that more senior techs give a second opinion and all the
techs agreed. With the Open Pro rim one spoke actually pulled through the
rim and it was instant trash.

I weigh 245 lbs so I think that I am seeing problems that lighter riders
never see.

The thing that is frustrating to me is that I took appropriate steps to
getting wheels built. I went to good shops, explained my situation with
breaking rear spokes, always took the shops recommendations as to the best
parts for me, asked that the wheels be built by their best wheel builder,
and brought the wheels back to the shop for maintenance if there was any
sign loose spokes or being out of true but I still did not get a wheel to
last 500 miles. Most of the replies are either "build your own wheels, it
not rocket surgery", or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what
they were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy wheels?

all 3 shops were crappy. here in the bay area, i've only come across 1
shop that really knows how to build a wheel that stays true under my
#210 weight. i slightly bent a wheel in a crash and i took it to 3 of
the "best" shops in the area for repair. all 3 declared it bent beyond
hope. finally, i took it to its original builder, and he had it back in
shape in no time! i'd originally avoided him because he was expensive
and i wanted to see whether anyone else knew their stuff. false economy.

Quoted message said:

I
am also frustrated that there is an elitist attitude that hand built wheels
are the only way to go and that only fools buy ready made wheelsets. I have
had much more fun on my rides since I switched to the Ksyrium Elite rear
wheel.

the ksyiriums with the big fat alloy spokes do seem to fail. i've
passed a number of riders limping home with those things flopping about.
but they /are/ ridable if you open the brake caliper right up; if you
want to ride them, go right ahead! and the ones with the steel spokes
seem to be fine.

ignore the elitist attitude. there's people that that feel qualified to
criticize equipment they've never used in every field, not just bikes.

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now, tension the spoke to the yield stress and relax it again. I
think you'll see a perfectly straight spoke with no residual stress.
If that is not stress relieving, then you may have abetter word for
it. Let me know what you find.

well, for the metallurgical definition of stress relief, that would
require between 1% & 3% strain, and even then, that would typically be
done immediately after initial deformation to prevent any possible aging
effects. on a 296mm spoke, if we're conservative, 1% means 3mm
elongation making it unusable for its originally intended purpose.

But the lower end of that limit quite plausible, right? Fully tensioned spokes
do exhibit loaded elongations of around 1% and so the stress-relief procedure
described in Jobst's book is taking the spokes to about 1.5% or 2% strain,
clearly within your specified range.

Regarding aging effects, these can be very slow for stainless steels. Are you
sure they are important in this application for such high purity stainless
steels as DT (for example) are using?
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

"Mark South" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

I'm sorry, I have made a mistake or two in the following, which I attribute to
my inability to leave numbers alone no matter how short of sleep I am.

Quoted message said:

"jim beam" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now, tension the spoke to the yield stress and relax it again. I
think you'll see a perfectly straight spoke with no residual stress.
If that is not stress relieving, then you may have abetter word for
it. Let me know what you find.

well, for the metallurgical definition of stress relief, that would
require between 1% & 3% strain, and even then, that would typically be
done immediately after initial deformation to prevent any possible aging
effects. on a 296mm spoke, if we're conservative, 1% means 3mm
elongation making it unusable for its originally intended purpose.

But the lower end of that limit quite plausible, right? Fully tensioned

spokes

Quoted message said:

do exhibit loaded elongations of around 1% and so the stress-relief procedure
described in Jobst's book is taking the spokes to about 1.5% or 2% strain,
clearly within your specified range.

I overestimated, sorry. That should have been:

But approaching the lower end of that limit is quite plausible, right?
Fully tensioned spokes do exhibit loaded elongations approaching 1% and
so the stress-relief procedure described in Jobst's book is taking the
spokes to in the region of 1% strain, close to your specified range.

Quoted message said:

Regarding aging effects, these can be very slow for stainless steels. Are you
sure they are important in this application for such high purity stainless
steels as DT (for example) are using?

That question stands.
--
Mark South: World Citizen, Net Denizen

bob-<< or "the person who built your wheels didn't know what

Quoted message said:

they were doing." If it isn't hard how come I got three crappy wheels?

Quoted message said:

<BR><BR>

It's easy to slap a cart BB into a frameset as well but we see it done wrong
all the time. Wheelbuilding is not 'hard' but it can be 'diffucult' to get the
four varibles correct at the same time. Many people build wheels, not a lot of
'wheelbuilders' tho, even here in the 'Republic'.

Peter Chisholm
Vecchio's Bicicletteria
1833 Pearl St.
Boulder, CO, 80302
(303)440-3535
http://www.vecchios.com
"Ruote convenzionali costruite eccezionalmente bene"