Raising LA threshold

If its a threshold the whole definition kind of evokes pain doesnt it?
Its going to hurt to raise it but thats the only way.

ejglows,

Easier said than done. To raise your lactic acid threshold you are going to need to train at, around, and above your threshold level. Intervals would be the best way to accomplish this. You can warm up, sprint up to your threshold and hold it for 2-3 minutes then recover for 1-2 minutes then sprint up again and repeat (you could also use resistance, big gears, rather than cadence to get your heart pumping hard.) You need to fully understand that training at this level requires a good recovery. I would limit this kind of training to 1-2 times a week no more, like Monday and Friday so that you have time to recover and do some other training in the middle. I've got some good intervals that would be right inline with this type of training. I will have to post them up.

Agree in general with mymilk, but believe aerobic capacity/endurance is at least as important as LA threshold. After all, the faster and longer you can ride at an aerobic pace, the less you need to worry about lactic acid. Aerobic training that brings the heartrate down and extends muscle endurance means many miles/hours in the saddle.

Also believe the best high-intensity training would be specific to the events we focus on. My training focus is faster average speeds for mountain century rides; that's quite a bit different than someone training for a crit race. I think the need for sustained climbing at 85-95% max HR for 20 minutes would indicate different training than a 1-2 minute sprints.

My interest isn't crit racing, but faster Century rides over hills and mountains. Longer training rides with some hard climb in the second half of the ride are

:agree:

With out knowing what his/her goals are its hard to really suggest a work our regimine of any kind. dhk is right, aerobic capacity is very important. Maybe ejglows will reply with what type of riding he is currently doing and what his future plans are 🙂

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ejglows
I know my heart is tough as nails but my muscles dont have the same kind of attitude. I want to raise my LA threshold! How does one train for this without feeling like they are going to burst? Are they any foods/supplements that will help?

Cheers!
keep riding like the wind...

In terms of foods and supplements..
anything which increases the buffering capacity of the blood will raise your lactate threshold.
Sodium Bicarbonate is the old 'cheat' which raises the bloods buffering capacity and so the threshold.
Can't be recommended as it MAY lead to disq. as it is performance enhancing(although not on the banned list I believe-someone correct me if I am wrong).
Raising LT is improved by trainiing around your LT The LT is probibly below the point at which your legs burn and feel heavy. This point is likely your OBLA, ie the point at which lactate is produced at a faster rate than it can be broken down.
You dont need to be training at this intensity to raise LT although some studies have pointed toward this being the most productive way of doing so.
Training can be carried out at or below the anaerobic threshold (75-90 % of max heart rate and equivalent power output). You aren't supposed to accumulate lactic acid. You should feel like you could go faster and longer for every interval. Therefore, they have built in to them sufficient rest or slow work to allow complete recovery between reps or sets. This design format ensures that there is no accumulated fatigue between sets or reps allowing maintenance of quality rather than a reduction in performance/speed caused by fatigue.
Can be done as TT over longer periodeg30-60mins at lower end of LT or intervals at upper end of LT(closer to OBLA)eg 5*8min with 2-3 min recoveries. Lengths of intervals can vary from 6 to 30 mins with the number of intervals gradually increasing with training adaption.

The aim of threshold training is to get the body used to working intermittently above threshold and practice recovering after each effort. Gradually this type of training stimulates improved efficiency and increased recovery rates around threshold allowing the body to gradually increase the work it can do without accumulating progressive amounts of lactate.
As with most training methods:
"THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A RABBIT"

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by the brother
Training can be carried out at or below the anaerobic threshold (75-90 % of max heart rate and equivalent power output). You aren't supposed to accumulate lactic acid. You should feel like you could go faster and longer for every interval. Therefore, they have built in to them sufficient rest or slow work to allow complete recovery between reps or sets. This design format ensures that there is no accumulated fatigue between sets or reps allowing maintenance of quality rather than a reduction in performance/speed caused by fatigue.
Can be done as TT over longer periodeg30-60mins at lower end of LT or intervals at upper end of LT(closer to OBLA)eg 5*8min with 2-3 min recoveries. Lengths of intervals can vary from 6 to 30 mins with the number of intervals gradually increasing with training adaption.

The aim of threshold training is to get the body used to working intermittently above threshold and practice recovering after each effort. Gradually this type of training stimulates improved efficiency and increased recovery rates around threshold allowing the body to gradually increase the work it can do without accumulating progressive amounts of lactate.
As with most training methods:
"THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A RABBIT"

This is one of the best descriptions of LT training intervals that I have read - thanks!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by the brother
In terms of foods and supplements..
anything which increases the buffering capacity of the blood will raise your lactate threshold.
Sodium Bicarbonate is the old 'cheat' which raises the bloods buffering capacity and so the threshold.
Can't be recommended as it MAY lead to disq. as it is performance enhancing(although not on the banned list I believe-someone correct me if I am wrong).
Raising LT is improved by trainiing around your LT The LT is probibly below the point at which your legs burn and feel heavy. This point is likely your OBLA, ie the point at which lactate is produced at a faster rate than it can be broken down.
You dont need to be training at this intensity to raise LT although some studies have pointed toward this being the most productive way of doing so.
Training can be carried out at or below the anaerobic threshold (75-90 % of max heart rate and equivalent power output). You aren't supposed to accumulate lactic acid. You should feel like you could go faster and longer for every interval. Therefore, they have built in to them sufficient rest or slow work to allow complete recovery between reps or sets. This design format ensures that there is no accumulated fatigue between sets or reps allowing maintenance of quality rather than a reduction in performance/speed caused by fatigue.
Can be done as TT over longer periodeg30-60mins at lower end of LT or intervals at upper end of LT(closer to OBLA)eg 5*8min with 2-3 min recoveries. Lengths of intervals can vary from 6 to 30 mins with the number of intervals gradually increasing with training adaption.

The aim of threshold training is to get the body used to working intermittently above threshold and practice recovering after each effort. Gradually this type of training stimulates improved efficiency and increased recovery rates around threshold allowing the body to gradually increase the work it can do without accumulating progressive amounts of lactate.
As with most training methods:
"THERE IS MORE THAN ONE WAY TO SKIN A RABBIT"

Thanks for the advice! I am now ready to test all this out...with a stubborn mind and a penchant for pain... I am making the transition from a sprint athlete to an endurance athlete. I know my body composition is full of fast-twitch and now I must train what I do have of the slow twitch little buggers...its going to be a long road ahead....but aren`t they all? I guess that is part of what makes cycling fun...all those roads and where they lead to.

Cheers!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by mymilkexpired
:agree:

With out knowing what his/her goals are its hard to really suggest a work our regimine of any kind. dhk is right, aerobic capacity is very important. Maybe ejglows will reply with what type of riding he is currently doing and what his future plans are 🙂

my training isnt at all what yours might be, but here goes...
2 days a week hill repeats (all around with flats about 25miles each day)
2 days 20 miles, whatever I feel like...mostly cadence rides...
1 day easy spin and technique
1 day long ride (60 miles)

my objectives right now are trying to really get into the swing of things...I was a competative D1 athlete in college, but it was a sprint/speed burst sport. I am trying to find races/centuries where I live, but all the information is in Japanese (and whatever people tell you, when you dont live in Tokyo, NO ONE SPEAKS ENGLISH)...so here I am training hard out for "I don"t know yet"...
life is good...I have a lot of cardio endurance, but my muscles build LA easy....

thanks guys! It"s great to find support on here...

I'm a newbie here so please forgive the dumb question, but how does one determine their LT in the first place?

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by jumperq
I'm a newbie here so please forgive the dumb question, but how does one determine their LT in the first place?

A standard "rule of thumb" is 85% of max HR. This level seems to be just about right for me, based on the intensity I can tolerate on the road. After an hour or so above this 85% level, fatigue sets in and slows me down.

Blood sampling during a controlled exercise test would be the accurate way to do it. On the Lance Chronicles show last week (OLN), Lance finished a climb, called out "169" to his trainer, and immediately had a drop of blood drawn. The trainer used a little hand-held analyzer which read out directly in %LA.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by jumperq
I'm a newbie here so please forgive the dumb question, but how does one determine their LT in the first place?

Not a dumb question at all. First, there is no sure way to determine it without blood analysis, etc. The 85% estimate is probably not too far off, although, if you are not yet in shape, your MAX HR may be wildly high (I was hitting 212 in early March, but now I can't get past 185). Another way that I have heard of is to measure AVG HR over a 30 minute time trial where you have paced yourself (not flat out and then dragging at the end) and that you would consider to be your best effort. I haven't tried it but it makes sense - if you exceed your LT threshold you won't be able to maintain a steady pace for 30 minutes, but it needs to be your best effort, otherwise you are not reaching your threshold.

for lactate threshold to be measured you *need* to have some blood taken, generally from a fingerprick measurement. if you aren't having blood taken then LT is *not* being measured.

generally, within a lab setting, LT is quite a low intensity. It's usually measured as either 1 mmol/L increase (this will be ~ 2.xx mmol/l) in lactate over exercise baseline levels or at a fixed measure of 2.5 mmol/L.

LT is *never* measured in HR, and you should be concerned with the quality of data if someone gives you your LT as a HR measure. LT is always a measure of the work being done for a specific amount of lactate (see the two options i mentioned above). Thus, the workload that elicits that measure of lactate is your LT and is therefore measured as power (watts) in cycling or velocity (km/hr, m/s) in running.

Because the measure of LT is quite low/moderate (e.g., 1 mmol/L increase), this effort is sustainable for up to 3+ hours (in cycling), and is about 10 to 15% below the power that can be maintained for a 1-hr TT.

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ricstern
for lactate threshold to be measured you *need* to have some blood taken, generally from a fingerprick measurement. if you aren't having blood taken then LT is *not* being measured.

LT is *never* measured in HR, and you should be concerned with the quality of data if someone gives you your LT as a HR measure. LT is always a measure of the work being done for a specific amount of lactate (see the two options i mentioned above). Thus, the workload that elicits that measure of lactate is your LT and is therefore measured as power (watts) in cycling or velocity (km/hr, m/s) in running.

OK, what dhk and I are referring to is LTHR (Lactate Threshold Heart Rate) not LT, I will give you that. But, since most of us don't have access to a sports lab, and since a Heart Rate Monitor is 1/20th the price of a decent power meter ($50USD vs $1,000USD), most people are willing to use an *ESTIMATED* LTHR as a *ROUGH* approximation of the Lactate Threshold. Maybe they will be off by 5-10%, but, since most of us won't be in the Tour this year, I think we will get by!

Ric, first, thanks for providing accurate, detailed information. Second, I respect your recurring need to set the record straight. However, I think that the interests of folks who are simply trying to figure all this stuff out, are not always well served by your "clarifications". I guess what I am saying is - lighten up a little. You are making it sound like if you don't have access to advanced tools, then you shouldn't even bother - not true. Precision is great, but I would rather work with an estimate than have nothing at all. Unfortunately, those are my options - and I think my situation is representative of many others here.

I know from experience that when I'm working at about 87% of max HR, or 160 bpm, I start to put fatigue into the leg muscles. After 30-60 minutes at this pace, I feel my power output slipping, and have to fight the desire to slow down.

At this point, I don't know if my blood LA concentration is 1, 2.5, or 4 mmol/L, but not convinced this is data I need to know either. Why would knowing the number matter?

Perhaps an advanced coach such as Ric would benefit from knowing my LA concentration

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Randybaker99
OK, what dhk and I are referring to is LTHR (Lactate Threshold Heart Rate) not LT, I will give you that. But, since most of us don't have access to a sports lab, and since a Heart Rate Monitor is 1/20th the price of a decent power meter ($50USD vs $1,000USD), most people are willing to use an *ESTIMATED* LTHR as a *ROUGH* approximation of the Lactate Threshold. Maybe they will be off by 5-10%, but, since most of us won't be in the Tour this year, I think we will get by!

Ric, first, thanks for providing accurate, detailed information. Second, I respect your recurring need to set the record straight. However, I think that the interests of folks who are simply trying to figure all this stuff out, are not always well served by your "clarifications". I guess what I am saying is - lighten up a little. You are making it sound like if you don't have access to advanced tools, then you shouldn't even bother - not true. Precision is great, but I would rather work with an estimate than have nothing at all. Unfortunately, those are my options - and I think my situation is representative of many others here.

just because the majority of us here (myself included) won't be riding the Tour de France (or similar) doesn't mean we don't want accurate, useful, reliable information. sure, it doesn't suit everyone, but, then inaccurate data doesn't suit everyone either.

by writing my clarification about LT, i was pointing out that a) LT is *NOT* TT power (it's less intense), and b) it *can't* be measured with HR.

i understand that many people don't have access to a power meter, and use HR. additionally, i further understand that *some* people use the expression LT incorrectly (i.e., for a HR that is elicited by riding a TT). however, in other parts of life where a word is used incorrectly we tend to correct the person. for e.g., if someone kept referring to a chair as a table we'd either correct them or be confused about what they were talking about.

in regards to HR being a proxy for actual intensity and what the error might be (i.e., you mentioned 5 to 10%), at TT power my HR can vary from ~ 165 to 180+ b/min (at the same power) due to differences in temperature, environmental conditions, and state of fatigue. that's ~15+ b/min difference, it's very difficult to set zones based on such varied data.

Ric

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by dhk
I know from experience that when I'm working at about 87% of max HR, or 160 bpm, I start to put fatigue into the leg muscles. After 30-60 minutes at this pace, I feel my power output slipping, and have to fight the desire to slow down.

At this point, I don't know if my blood LA concentration is 1, 2.5, or 4 mmol/L, but not convinced this is data I need to know either. Why would knowing the number matter?



Perhaps an advanced coach such as Ric would benefit from knowing my LA concentration

if that's the effort you're TTing at it's likely much higher than e.g., 4 mmol/L. however, you're correct it's not really useful info (except in a lab). from a coaching perspective it isn't really useful info to have, rather like HR.

all that really matters is the power that you can produce over the durations you race over, and the drop off that may (or may not) occur.

ric

Hi, now I understand what does LT stands for, but could someone give me explanation for TT? Thank`s in advance!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by oshcha
Hi, now I understand what does LT stands for, but could someone give me explanation for TT? Thank`s in advance!

It stands for Time Trial:

"A race in which competitors start one-at-a-time, usually at 30 second or one-minute intervals. The winner is the cyclist who completes the course in the shortest time. Since drafting is not allowed in an individual time trial, there are no team tactics; it is just the cyclist agians the clock, hence the sobriquet "the race of truth." The cycling leg of a triathlon is a form of time trial. There are also team time trials, usually involving teams of 4 or more, taking turns leading and drafting each other. Team time trials require great precision in rotating position within the team. Time trials are held both on the road and on the track. Bicycles made for time-trial use are designed to be as aerodynamic as possible, even at the expense of degrading handling characteristics and rider comfort. Since riders are on their own, there is no need for fancy maneuvering as there is in a peloton.
www.sheldonbrown.org/gloss_ta-o.html

A race in which riders or teams go around the track or course individually and the fastest time wins.
www.hickoksports.com/glossary/gcycling.shtml

An event or series of events where a swimmer may officially achieve or better a required time standard.
www.hamiltonaquatics.com/glossary.htm

Thanks for all your help! I am now, painfully, working out of this sprinters body...

Even without the expensive tests, I can certainly tell when LA is building up...and I am monitoring my heart rate when this happens and basically listening more to my body. You are right, there is no easy way through this...

cheers!
erin