Raising LA threshold

I've started, for the first time, to do some pyramid sessions eg. a 30 second maximal sprint/30 second recovery pyramid would involve sprinting for 10, 20, 30, 20 and 10 seconds with 30 seconds recovery in between.

Doing several varying sized pyramids in a 2hr ride will hopefully help me tolerate lactate and improve my recovery. This is the area I have identified as my weakness when racing but as has been stated previously, your training should be specific to your own needs.

Hi,

Now I understand that some aproximation of LT is percentage (~85%) of my MAX HR. It probably has some 10%-15% error, right?
As Ric said, best way to determine your wattage at LT is in lab.
My question is - can`t we go once to lab so proffesional doctor will measure our wattage at LT and also our HR at this LT. Isnt this better aproximation, then just refer to some unknown source number - 85%.
As Ric said that HR at LT can change depending on different factors (temperature, fatigue, etc), but when you train you know temperature and also feel your fatigue and can set this HR limit +- some beats, depending on this factors.
Isn`t this better approach? Any comments?🙂

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by oshcha
Hi,

Now I understand that some aproximation of LT is percentage (~85%) of my MAX HR. It probably has some 10%-15% error, right?
As Ric said, best way to determine your wattage at LT is in lab.
My question is - can`t we go once to lab so proffesional doctor will measure our wattage at LT and also our HR at this LT. Isnt this better aproximation, then just refer to some unknown source number - 85%.
As Ric said that HR at LT can change depending on different factors (temperature, fatigue, etc), but when you train you know temperature and also feel your fatigue and can set this HR limit +- some beats, depending on this factors.
Isn`t this better approach? Any comments?🙂

the range can be *huge* for people. for example, in my post above i suggested a 15 b/min range. i don't believe it's possible to use such large ranges, and that's why it's more beneficial to use a power meter

ric

as for supplements, Endurox R4 is probably the best way to recover from post workout damage from LA. I use it after every ride.

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by ricstern
the range can be *huge* for people. for example, in my post above i suggested a 15 b/min range. i don't believe it's possible to use such large ranges, and that's why it's more beneficial to use a power meter

ric

Any experience/opinions on the Ciclosport products that extrapolate watts from the speed, altimeter, etc. readings? Would this be any more or less acurate than using something like HR on a Conconi(sp?) test or HR over a 30 min TT to estimate it?

First post by the way, enjoying reading all the great info so far!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by tsintesi
Any experience/opinions on the Ciclosport products that extrapolate watts from the speed, altimeter, etc. readings? Would this be any more or less acurate than using something like HR on a Conconi(sp?) test or HR over a 30 min TT to estimate it?

First post by the way, enjoying reading all the great info so far!

although i've never used or seen the Hac4, it's my feeling based on the way that the power is *estimated* that it'll be of no use unless you happen to be cycling at low velocity up a very steep hill.

The Conconi test has been discredited as worthless.

Your HR during a TT isn't a 'special' or 'magic' number, if you want to know what it is, then ride a TT and find the average. Again, i repeat that this isn't LT (it's too high an intensity) and there's no such thing as LTHR.

ric

..............and there's no such thing as LTHR.

Apologies in advance for the length of the posting

Ric!
I understand where you are coming from with your stance on lactic threshold and heart rate.......BUT...

For the majority of endurance sports, cycling included, it isn't always possible for those that want to train more effectively and "scientifically" to use power and so I hope you would agree that training based on heart rate is the next best thing!? For people that are not willing to spend the extra money on some form of power measuring cranks/hubs etc. then HR monitors are a much cheaper alternative.

When power meters come down to the price of HR monitors then I think few people will be asking questions about HR!

As you have stated many times previously, HR does vary from day to day to a whole array of physiological and non physiological reasons. However, it is still a great deal better to base your days training on HR rather than the more traditional but considerably more vague 3 zone system of Hard, Medium, Easy!

One point that I haven't seen raised, although it is quite possible that I have just missed it, is that basing your training on Power relies on repeated testing as with HR based testing! The whole point of training is that you will be improving, so that the only way you can continue to train at the correct intensity is by continually re-assessing your power output. Depending on the point at which you find yourself in your training, the power that you should be training at can change a great deal quicker than you might think.
Leading on from that, if you only carry out testing once a year then you are likely training at the wrong power for a large proportion of that year!
ie if your training requires a ride at Lactate threshold power then the only way you are going to find an exact value for this is to do some form of step test during which blood is analysed. Remember that LT power is not TT power and so you don't get to re-check LT with every new race!
If you are doing the right training then LT power should increase but the wrong training, or too much, can lead to a reduction in power! How do you know if your LT has raised(you will be training@too low power), lowered(you will be training@too high power) or stayed the same(correct power but something isn't working)
Nearly finished now.

So my point is, or at least was when I started, that people should be encouraged to do the best that they can with the resources that they have. Not everyone can afford power training and fewer still can afford the regular lab or field based blood testing that is necessary for the best power based or heart rate based training.
Maybe the best way is to buy a portable Lactate meter and learn what blood lactate levels you should be training at rather than something that is just an indicator like HR or Power.

Sorry again for the length of the post. Hope that it is readable and understandable.

Good luck with the training. You will get much fitter by getting out on your bike than taking that second job at Macdonalds during your training time, to pay for all of the "TOYS"!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the brother
[B]..............and there's no such thing as LTHR.

Apologies in advance for the length of the posting

Ric!
I understand where you are coming from with your stance on lactic threshold and heart rate.......BUT...
[/quote]

is the rest of the message aimed at me?

Quoted post said:

For the majority of endurance sports, cycling included, it isn't always possible for those that want to train more effectively and "scientifically" to use power and so I hope you would agree that training based on heart rate is the next best thing!? For people that are not willing to spend the extra money on some form of power measuring cranks/hubs etc. then HR monitors are a much cheaper alternative.

When power meters come down to the price of HR monitors then I think few people will be asking questions about HR!

Quoted post said:

As you have stated many times previously, HR does vary from day to day to a whole array of physiological and non physiological reasons. However, it is still a great deal better to base your days training on HR rather than the more traditional but considerably more vague 3 zone system of Hard, Medium, Easy!

Quoted post said:

One point that I haven't seen raised, although it is quite possible that I have just missed it, is that basing your training on Power relies on repeated testing as with HR based testing! The whole point of training is that you will be improving, so that the only way you can continue to train at the correct intensity is by continually re-assessing your power output. Depending on the point at which you find yourself in your training, the power that you should be training at can change a great deal quicker than you might think.
Leading on from that, if you only carry out testing once a year then you are likely training at the wrong power for a large proportion of that year!
ie if your training requires a ride at Lactate threshold power then the only way you are going to find an exact value for this is to do some form of step test during which blood is analysed. Remember that LT power is not TT power and so you don't get to re-check LT with every new race!

Quoted post said:

So my point is, or at least was when I started, that people should be encouraged to do the best that they can with the resources that they have. Not everyone can afford power training and fewer still can afford the regular lab or field based blood testing that is necessary for the best power based or heart rate based training.

Hi,
When I go above my anaerobic threshold, I feel something in my heart, like a change of density in the blood.. I dont know how to describe it, but somehow "I feel It". This is accompanied by a change in breathing pattern (much more deep and intercostal, not abdominal). In my case, this is 88% MHR, at least running... but In the bike it's at 88% MHR; but this Max is measures in the bike.
Anyone here has these sensations?
Cheers,

Oscar

In December, I got my power and LT measured (for the first time).

Now, with that knowledge a good coach, and a plan, I have improved dramatically.

Last year I did PBP (pre-coach), this year, I have switched to racing, and I can tell you that paying for a test and a coach is worth it.

I am now in my late 30's with a dream of riding elite someday (not likely at my age, but never kill the dream), and if I had followed this simple advice when I was 25, I would definitely be a pro.

After 12 years off the bike, and two years back on, I am very competitive in Senior III after just 5 races. Get the testing done, get a coach, and when the plan says to ride hard, ride hard. when the plan says to ride easy, ride easy. Eat well, sleep as often as you can.

The advice is good, and I don't know who ric is.

Regards

No Ric it wasn't specifically for you.
Well........ started off being but then I drifted off course somewhere along the way.

I've also seen seen some very expensive kit around and totally agree that if some of those people saved there money and trained a little more intelligently then that would make much more difference to their results, if that was infact the intention of buying the Guchi wheels etc, although I'm not sure that extra speed is always the intention of the purchase!

Can you help me out here Ric?

I was under the impression that If I were a time trialist then the three main determinants for improving my overall performance were:

i)The rate that I produce lactate-raising the speed that I can work aerobically.
ii)The rate that I am able to clear the lactate that I produce
iii)The ability of my muscles to work in high lactate concentrations.

Surely, if the majority of the population is able to produce a power that an elite rider races at then it is the build up of lactate in the blood that eventually causes the slowing of any rider at a specific speed/power- if this is so then is blood lactate testing not the most direct way of measuring it?

Is this wrong?

If it is correct, then the best way to improve is to maximally stress a particular element at one time or is it not?
This would include rides at an intensity that elicity blood lactate levels little over exercise base levels(2,5mmol/L), rides at threshold(3-4,5mmol/L), and rides that produce lactate levels above threshold-sorry if the figures aren't bang on.

Im presuming from the previous post that you don't see the training process in this manner.

How do you structure training for you athletes?

Do you, or would you, coach someone who doesn't train with Power but Heart rate as their guide?

I would be the first to admit that power is a better indicator of work level than HR although I'm not sure HR is as bad an indicator as I get the impression that you think, so long as it is understand that HR values do vary(due recovery, illness, level of hydration etc).

A wise man knows he knows nothing.

Hi ejglows,
It sounds like a lot of endurance athletes trying to get faster neglect their base endurance. People need a strong base aerobic foundation in order to get the most out of LT training. I'm not sure if anyone has touched on this, but dont' neglect the bottom of the pyramid. You can only build as high as the base allows. Long, slow, low intensity rides will build the foundation necessary for higher intensity training. And then just working close to your lactate threshold will increase tolerance. Best of luck and have fun!

Quoted post said:

Originally posted by Guru_2_u_2
In December, I got my power and LT measured (for the first time).

Now, with that knowledge a good coach, and a plan, I have improved dramatically.

Last year I did PBP (pre-coach), this year, I have switched to racing, and I can tell you that paying for a test and a coach is worth it.

I am now in my late 30's with a dream of riding elite someday (not likely at my age, but never kill the dream), and if I had followed this simple advice when I was 25, I would definitely be a pro.

After 12 years off the bike, and two years back on, I am very competitive in Senior III after just 5 races. Get the testing done, get a coach, and when the plan says to ride hard, ride hard. when the plan says to ride easy, ride easy. Eat well, sleep as often as you can.

The advice is good, and I don't know who ric is.

Regards

sounds like you've improved really well there. there's no reason why you can't be an elite in your late 30's. for e.g., malcolm elliott is in his 40's (i think).

I'm Ric Stern, professional coach, sport scientist, and consultant, coach from pro level to recreational. please feel free to chek out my website! www.cyclecoach.com. i'm also sponsor of this forum!

who are you guru?

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the brother
[B]No Ric it wasn't specifically for you.
Well........ started off being but then I drifted off course somewhere along the way.
[/quote]

Lol! ok!

Quoted post said:

I've also seen seen some very expensive kit around and totally agree that if some of those people saved there money and trained a little more intelligently then that would make much more difference to their results, if that was infact the intention of buying the Guchi wheels etc, although I'm not sure that extra speed is always the intention of the purchase!

Quoted post said:

Can you help me out here Ric?

Quoted post said:

I was under the impression that If I were a time trialist then the three main determinants for improving my overall performance were:

i)The rate that I produce lactate-raising the speed that I can work aerobically.
ii)The rate that I am able to clear the lactate that I produce
iii)The ability of my muscles to work in high lactate concentrations.

Quoted post said:

Surely, if the majority of the population is able to produce a power that an elite rider races at then it is the build up of lactate in the blood that eventually causes the slowing of any rider at a specific speed/power- if this is so then is blood lactate testing not the most direct way of measuring it?

Is this wrong?

Quoted post said:

If it is correct, then the best way to improve is to maximally stress a particular element at one time or is it not?
This would include rides at an intensity that elicity blood lactate levels little over exercise base levels(2,5mmol/L), rides at threshold(3-4,5mmol/L), and rides that produce lactate levels above threshold-sorry if the figures aren't bang on.

Quoted post said:

Im presuming from the previous post that you don't see the training process in this manner.

Quoted post said:

How do you structure training for you athletes?

Quoted post said:

Do you, or would you, coach someone who doesn't train with Power but Heart rate as their guide?

Hi Ric!

Thanks for that. I've got a couple of supplementary questions for you but you'll be glad to hear that they will have to wait until later as I have quite a heavy training day today.
Had considered polishing up my wheels to cut through the air more easily but thought I might give a 2 hour ride a go instead and see what benefit that gave me🙂
Interesting stuff!
I'll be back🙂

Permission to redirect? Thankyou Your Honour!

How much is power at LT likely to change between off season and peak fitness?

Is the difference sufficient such that power zones calculated at the end of the off season would be significantly different by the peak of the race season?

Presumably if your aim is to raise your threshold, then training becomes less effective as you start to drift away from threshold. ie if you keep training at the same power but your threshold power has actually increased.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by the brother
[B]Permission to redirect? Thankyou Your Honour!

How much is power at LT likely to change between off season and peak fitness?
[/quote]

depends how slack you are in training, or whether it drops at all.

Quoted post said:

Is the difference sufficient such that power zones calculated at the end of the off season would be significantly different by the peak of the race season?

Quoted post said:

Presumably if your aim is to raise your threshold, then training becomes less effective as you start to drift away from threshold. ie if you keep training at the same power but your threshold power has actually increased. [/B]

Cheers Ric
Do you recalculate the training zones based on testing(sampling blood) or use Time Trials as a guide and estimate zones from TT values?

neither :-). i base zones on MAP, see http://www.cyclingnews.com/fitness/?id=powerstern

ric

There are 2 cyclists with the same MAP.
Cyclist A has spent more time training at threshold and so has raised his threshold power to a higher percentage of MAP than Cyclist B.

If training zones are based purely on MAP-how does this system take into account the differences in Lactate threshold power?
Would LT power, and percentages thereof, not be a better value to base zones on for endurance athletes at least?