How to tighten back pedal style breaks?

"Julia Goolia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and
so it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

Thanks for any help! julia

Have to overhaul the hub and replace the brake shoes. Could
also be poor bearing adjustment or improper assembly.

Cheers,

Scott..

Julia Goolia said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and
so it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

You needed the proper search terms, spelled correctly:
"coaster brake".

The hub needs an overhaul. Not rocket science, but you'd
best be handy with things mechanical:

parktool.comcoaster.shtmlOpen ↗
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA bike.terrymorse.combike.terrymorse.comOpen ↗

On 6 May 2004 07:53:49 -0700, [email hidden] (Julia

Goolia) may have said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so
it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

It's called a "coaster brake". The effectiveness of them is
usually not very high precisely because they work only on
the rear wheel. If you have a disability that prevents you
from using a hand brake, I would suggest taking the bike to
a competent local bike shop for assistance. You might
improve the brake's action by dismantling, cleaning and
relubricating the coaster brake components in the hub, but
the chances are that your best bet is to add a front hand
brake to the bike, or, better yet, add both front and rear
hand brakes. In the majority of cases, this is not a
difficult conversion, though a few bikes do not have rims or
frames that make the process easy, and the components needed
will have to be selected to fit by someone with some
experience with the issue. It's not rocket science, but some
basic mechanical competency and familiarity with the
assemblies is needed.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Julia Goolia said:

Quoted message said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and
so it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

Terry Morse said:

You needed the proper search terms, spelled correctly:
"coaster brake".

Actually, the term "coaster brake" is primarily an
Americanism. In the
U.K., for instance, the usual term is "back pedalling brake"
though this type of brake is not common there. It's true
that spelling it "break" in a Google search won't be
helpful, though!

Quoted message said:

The hub needs an overhaul. Not rocket science, but you'd
best be handy with things mechanical:

parktool.comcoaster.shtmlOpen ↗

That's a pretty good set of instructions, though it seems to
call for some unnecessary work, for instance it tells you to
remove the sprocket, when there's no reason to do so for
most types of service.

This problem is most often the result of the cone adjustment
being loose (often as a result of losing the brake arm clamp
bolt) and does not necessarily mean the hub needs an
overhaul. If this is the case, another symptom will be that
the tire will be loose and shaky.

In any case, I highly recommend getting a front hand brake
installed. This is not usually an expensive matter, and even
if the coaster brake is the primary brake, you should have
some sort of back up system in case the coaster brake fails.

When coaster brakes fail, it usually happens suddenly and
totally, with no warning.

Sheldon "Don't Put All Your Eggs In One Basket" Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
| What was the real cause of the 1861-65 war? |
| sheldonbrown.netslaverywar.htmlOpen ↗ |
+------------------------------------------------+ Harris
Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX
617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts
shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

In article
<[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so
it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

If your bike doesn't have one already, get a front brake. If
it does have one, get use to using it. It will help you
avoid all of those near death situations.
-------------
Alex

[email hidden] (Julia Goolia) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and
so it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

Thanks for any help! julia

Your "brakes" are commonly called "coaster brakes". Here's
some instructions on how to rebuild the hub:
parktool.comcoaster.shtmlOpen ↗

It may be that you simply need to tighten the bearing cones.
However, there may be a spring broken within the hub. Or
there may be worn internal parts. Without seeing the bike in
person, it's not possible to tell.

Jeff

Julia Goolia said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and
so it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

There are several different mechanisms used in that style
brake. What brand?

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

Get a front brake. A rear wheel only brake (regardless of
it's a rim brake or a hub brake) takes twice the distance to
stop. After you get a front brake you need to get your rear
hub adjusted so it works better, but you will also need to
learn to use the front brake to stop quickly without fliping
over the bars.

Bruce

"Julia Goolia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and
so it takes a while to stop (have almost died many times
because i couldn't stop in time). Does anyone know how to
tighten these breaks? I tried to search the internet for a
link on this, but to no avail.

Thanks for any help! julia

Bruce Frech said:

Get a front brake.

Yep. I recommended that too.

Quoted message said:

A rear wheel only brake (regardless of it's a rim brake or
a hub brake) takes twice the distance to stop.

That's basically true, but in practice, you can usually stop
shorter with a coaster brake than with a rear hand brake.

That's why bikes with only a coaster brake are borderline
safe for street use, while bikes with only a rear hand brake
are not, no matter how good a hand brake it is.

This is because of the weight distribution. For maximum
braking with a coaster brake, you can put almost all of your
weight on the rear pedal, which is typically 6-7 inches
behind the bottom bracket.

On a freewheeling bike, you can't really apply your body's
weight behind the bottom bracket, so you can't generally get
as much weight on the rear wheel for braking traction
without fairly extreme acrobatics.

Sheldon "Hates Coaster Brakes, But Acknowledges Their Good
Points" Brown +-----------------------------------+
| The gains in life come slowly, | but the losses come
| suddenly. | -- Garrison Keillor |
+-----------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery, West
Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

06 May 2004 22:31:41 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

This is because of the weight distribution. For maximum
braking with a coaster brake, you can put almost all of
your weight on the rear pedal, which is typically 6-7
inches behind the bottom bracket.

I'm gonna have to think about this a bit more, but I believe
Sheldon barking up the wrong tree here.

Yes, you are applying force on a pedal that his behind the
bottom bracket.

But, no, you haven't shifted your center of mass any more
than you would have if you were using a hand brake.

The weight distribution depends only on the center of mass.
Trying to consider the forces applied to the pedal just
confuses the question.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney said:

06 May 2004 22:31:41 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

This is because of the weight distribution. For maximum
braking with a coaster brake, you can put almost all of
your weight on the rear pedal, which is typically 6-7
inches behind the bottom bracket.

I'm gonna have to think about this a bit more, but I
believe Sheldon barking up the wrong tree here.

Yes, you are applying force on a pedal that his behind the
bottom bracket.

But, no, you haven't shifted your center of mass any more
than you would have if you were using a hand brake.

The weight distribution depends only on the center of
mass. Trying to consider the forces applied to the pedal
just confuses the question.

For maximum rear braking you want to get the center of mass
as far back as possible. This is done while off the saddle,
so your body's weight can only be carried by the pedals and
the handlebars.

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I
don't blame you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get
your weight farther back when you can put your whole weight
on the rear pedal, rather than having to balance it between
the two pedals, as you need to do with a freewheeling bike.

I'm not sure this applies to bikes with high handlebars,
such as BMX bikes, but I have no doubt that it does to bikes
with more "cruiserish" riding position.

Sheldon "Still Hates Coaster Brakes" Brown +--------------------------------------------------------
---------+
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| after use, | send them along and help conserve these
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+-----------------------------------------------------------
------+ Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-
9772 FAX 617-244-1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find
parts shipped Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗
sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I
don't blame you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get
your weight farther back when you can put your whole weight
on the rear pedal, rather than having to balance it between
the two pedals, as you need to do with a freewheeling bike.

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you
backpedal a coaster brake then you're certainly moving your
center of mass rearwards, but I don't think that's what many
people do.

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move
significantly, and the weight distribution on the bike
didn't change.

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the
weight must be either over the bottom bracket or over the
rear wheel, but you're forgetting that there are some
contact forces on the handlebars and maybe some on the seat.
Plus it's important to note that forces on the pedals need
not be strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make
up for significant force in this direction.

All of which can happen without any significant movement
of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel
in a normal bathroom scale. Put a book of the same thickness
under the other wheel. Now hold yourself up in the doorway,
being careful to exert minimal force on the doorway (or get
someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake.
Read it again with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings unless
you slide off the rear of the saddle.

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My
daughter's old bike is small, but it would serve the
purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I asserted:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I
don't blame you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to
get your weight farther back when you can put your whole
weight on the rear pedal, rather than having to balance it
between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you
backpedal a coaster brake then you're certainly moving
your center of mass rearwards, but I don't think that's
what many people do.

That is the way you do a panic stop on a coaster brake.

Quoted message said:

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move
significantly, and the weight distribution on the bike
didn't change.

That's certainly correct.

Quoted message said:

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the
weight must be either over the bottom bracket or over
the rear wheel, but you're forgetting that there are
some contact forces on the handlebars and maybe some on
the seat.

In the maximum-braking case I refer to, the rider would not
be on the saddle, but would probably have a locked knee on
the braking leg.

Quoted message said:

Plus it's important to note that forces on the pedals need
not be strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make
up for significant force in this direction.

That's true, but those components can apply either way.

Quoted message said:

All of which can happen without any significant movement
of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel
in a normal bathroom scale. Put a book of the same
thickness under the other wheel. Now hold yourself up in
the doorway, being careful to exert minimal force on the
doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake.
Read it again with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings
unless you slide off the rear of the saddle.

I'd agree there.

Quoted message said:

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My
daughter's old bike is small, but it would serve the
purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

There are also dynamic aspects to this, because one can
bounce up and down a bit on the rear pedal, so this test
might not be altogether conclusive.

I don't have an accessible, working coaster brake bike. My
old Elgin is buried deep under the front porch, and last I
knew the New Departure brake had become unreliable--that's a
good part of the reason it got stuffed into the under-the-front-
porch morass...

I'm working from 50 year old memory here, when I used to
bomb around Marblehead on my old 24 inch wheel Rollfast, and
liked to do "Brodies" on it...

Sheldon "Stop!" Brown +-----------------------------------------
+
| The wind and waves are always on the | side of the ablest
| navigators. | --Edward Gibbon |
+-----------------------------------------+ Harris Cyclery,
West Newton, Massachusetts Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-
1041 harriscyclery.comharriscyclery.comOpen ↗ Hard-to-find parts shipped
Worldwide captainbike.comcaptainbike.comOpen ↗ sheldonbrown.comsheldonbrown.comOpen ↗

Quoted message said:

08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I
don't blame you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to
get your weight farther back when you can put your whole
weight on the rear pedal, rather than having to balance it
between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you
backpedal a coaster brake then you're certainly moving
your center of mass rearwards, but I don't think that's
what many people do.

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move
significantly, and the weight distribution on the bike
didn't change.

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the
weight must be either over the bottom bracket or over the
rear wheel, but you're forgetting that there are some
contact forces on the handlebars and maybe some on the
seat. Plus it's important to note that forces on the
pedals need not be strictly vertical since the hands and
arms can make up for significant force in this direction.

All of which can happen without any significant movement
of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel
in a normal bathroom scale. Put a book of the same
thickness under the other wheel. Now hold yourself up in
the doorway, being careful to exert minimal force on the
doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake.
Read it again with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings
unless you slide off the rear of the saddle.

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My
daughter's old bike is small, but it would serve the
purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

Right.

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds ( I
voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

(hope I do better in November)
--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

On Sun, 09 May 2004 15:25:20 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and
I don't blame you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to
get your weight farther back when you can put your whole
weight on the rear pedal, rather than having to balance
it between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you
backpedal a coaster brake then you're certainly moving
your center of mass rearwards, but I don't think that's
what many people do.

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move
significantly, and the weight distribution on the bike
didn't change.

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the
weight must be either over the bottom bracket or over the
rear wheel, but you're forgetting that there are some
contact forces on the handlebars and maybe some on the
seat. Plus it's important to note that forces on the
pedals need not be strictly vertical since the hands and
arms can make up for significant force in this direction.

All of which can happen without any significant movement
of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one
wheel in a normal bathroom scale. Put a book of the same
thickness under the other wheel. Now hold yourself up in
the doorway, being careful to exert minimal force on the
doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake.
Read it again with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings
unless you slide off the rear of the saddle.

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My
daughter's old bike is small, but it would serve the
purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

Right.

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds (
I voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

(hope I do better in November)

Dear Andrew,

But isn't the rear tire's contact patch still trailing
behind the center of gravity and still almost useless
for braking?

That is, won't the rear tire still skid almost immediately
when applied with any force? Does shifting 25 pounds however
far make any real difference?

If you're willing to work for nothing but glory, can you
fit a speedometer and front brake on this coaster bike and
make a few test runs and stops and let us know how far it
takes to stop from some speed with just a front brake, just
the rear brake, and just the rear brake with the weight-
shift to the rear?

I'd fool around with this, but I haven't seen a coaster
brake in decades.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and
>I don't blame you, but the ergonomics of it permit you
>to get your weight farther back when you can put your
>whole weight on the rear pedal, rather than having to
>balance it between the two pedals, as you need to do
>with a freewheeling bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you
backpedal a coaster brake then you're certainly moving
your center of mass rearwards, but I don't think that's
what many people do. As long as your butt doesn't move,
your CoM didn't move significantly, and the weight
distribution on the bike didn't change. I get the
impression that you're thinking that all the weight must
be either over the bottom bracket or over the rear wheel,
but you're forgetting that there are some contact forces
on the handlebars and maybe some on the seat. Plus it's
important to note that forces on the pedals need not be
strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make up
for significant force in this direction. All of which can
happen without any significant movement of the CoM. But,
this is testable! Put your coaster brake bike in a
doorway and put one wheel in a normal bathroom scale. Put
a book of the same thickness under the other wheel. Now
hold yourself up in the doorway, being careful to exert
minimal force on the doorway (or get someone else to do
this for you.) Read the scale while pressing hard on the
coaster brake. Read it again with no pedal force
(simulating coasting.) I don't expect there to be any
change in the readings unless you slide off the rear of
the saddle. Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike
here. My daughter's old bike is small, but it would serve
the purpose. I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds (
I voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

Quoted message said:

But isn't the rear tire's contact patch still trailing
behind the center of gravity and still almost useless for
braking? That is, won't the rear tire still skid almost
immediately when applied with any force? Does shifting 25
pounds however far make any real difference? If you're
willing to work for nothing but glory, can you fit a
speedometer and front brake on this coaster bike and make
a few test runs and stops and let us know how far it takes
to stop from some speed with just a front brake, just the
rear brake, and just the rear brake with the weight-shift
to the rear? I'd fool around with this, but I haven't seen
a coaster brake in decades.

On a new bike with a two minute commitment that was even
interesting. You make a good point but I'll leave it to
others to carry on in this quest.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971

09 May 2004 15:25:20 -0500 A Muzi said:

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds (
I voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

That's a pretty big change.

When I did it, using a very poorly fitting bike. the weight
on the front wheel increased from 65 to 70 lbs.

I need a better test bike, or I'll have to come down and see
how you did this.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

09 May 2004 10:48:32 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

In the maximum-braking case I refer to, the rider would not
be on the saddle, but would probably have a locked knee on
the braking leg.

I agree, but it's really hard to get that locked leg back
past the wide part of the saddle, unless you have one of
those banana saddles.

All in all, it sounds like we're coming to an agreement on
everything except what people actually do in a panic stop.
Unfortunately this is not something we can settle here.

My perception of this is that a panic stop is done with a
locked knee pointed down and rearwards, with the leg still
just against the front of the wide part of the saddle. Keep
in mind that the BB is in front of the saddle so not much
angle is needed to do this. The force on the body is up and
forward, so you have to push against the handlebars to
counter this.

I suspect that the effect is to actually move the CoM
slightly forward, but I can't be sure of that. I'm pretty
sure that no one ever lets their leg slip past the wide
part of the saddle. Any time I've tried that it felt so
awkward that I was afraid I was in danger of losing control
of the bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one
wheel in a normal bathroom scale.

I just did the test, and the only effect I could see was a
slight increase in force on the FRONT wheel when I put the
brakes on hard. I think this was just "noise" not real data.
To do a better test I need air in the tires.... ;-)

Quoted message said:

I'm working from 50 year old memory here, when I used to
bomb around Marblehead on my old 24 inch wheel Rollfast,
and liked to do "Brodies" on it...

And my 24" Schwinn Flying Star (with Bendix CABLE operated
2-speed) is still hanging in my folk's garage. It's still in
good shape, so I should take it for a spin when I go down
there the end of this month.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden] Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

09 May 2004 15:25:20 -0500 A Muzi said:

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds (
I voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

Jim Adney said:

That's a pretty big change. When I did it, using a very
poorly fitting bike. the weight on the front wheel
increased from 65 to 70 lbs. I need a better test bike, or
I'll have to come down and see how you did this.

I leaned back as far as I could. I was just hanging from a
swept back cruiser handlebar, bent like limbo on a girls'
bike. That was the number without bouncing though.

You are definitely correct about one's leg in the hollow of
the saddle.

--
Andrew Muzi www.yellowjersey.org Open every day since 1
April, 1971