How to tighten back pedal style breaks?

"Julia Goolia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

Thanks for any help!
julia

Have to overhaul the hub and replace the brake shoes. Could also be poor
bearing adjustment or improper assembly.

Cheers,

Scott..

Julia Goolia said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

You needed the proper search terms, spelled correctly: "coaster
brake".

The hub needs an overhaul. Not rocket science, but you'd best be
handy with things mechanical:

http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/coaster.shtml
--
terry morse Palo Alto, CA http://bike.terrymorse.com/

On 6 May 2004 07:53:49 -0700, [email hidden] (Julia

Goolia) may have said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

It's called a "coaster brake". The effectiveness of them is usually
not very high precisely because they work only on the rear wheel. If
you have a disability that prevents you from using a hand brake, I
would suggest taking the bike to a competent local bike shop for
assistance. You might improve the brake's action by dismantling,
cleaning and relubricating the coaster brake components in the hub,
but the chances are that your best bet is to add a front hand brake to
the bike, or, better yet, add both front and rear hand brakes. In the
majority of cases, this is not a difficult conversion, though a few
bikes do not have rims or frames that make the process easy, and the
components needed will have to be selected to fit by someone with some
experience with the issue. It's not rocket science, but some basic
mechanical competency and familiarity with the assemblies is needed.

--
My email address is antispammed; pull WEEDS if replying via e-mail.
Typoes are not a bug, they're a feature.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

Julia Goolia said:

Quoted message said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

Terry Morse said:

You needed the proper search terms, spelled correctly: "coaster
brake".

Actually, the term "coaster brake" is primarily an Americanism. In the
U.K., for instance, the usual term is "back pedalling brake" though this
type of brake is not common there. It's true that spelling it "break"
in a Google search won't be helpful, though!

Quoted message said:

The hub needs an overhaul. Not rocket science, but you'd best be
handy with things mechanical:

http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/coaster.shtml

That's a pretty good set of instructions, though it seems to call for
some unnecessary work, for instance it tells you to remove the sprocket,
when there's no reason to do so for most types of service.

This problem is most often the result of the cone adjustment being loose
(often as a result of losing the brake arm clamp bolt) and does not
necessarily mean the hub needs an overhaul. If this is the case,
another symptom will be that the tire will be loose and shaky.

In any case, I highly recommend getting a front hand brake installed.
This is not usually an expensive matter, and even if the coaster brake
is the primary brake, you should have some sort of back up system in
case the coaster brake fails.

When coaster brakes fail, it usually happens suddenly and totally, with
no warning.

Sheldon "Don't Put All Your Eggs In One Basket" Brown
+------------------------------------------------+
| What was the real cause of the 1861-65 war? |
| http://sheldonbrown.net/slaverywar.html |
+------------------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

If your bike doesn't have one already, get a front brake. If it does
have one, get use to using it. It will help you avoid all of those
near death situations.
-------------
Alex

[email hidden] (Julia Goolia) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

Thanks for any help!
julia

Your "brakes" are commonly called "coaster brakes". Here's some
instructions on how to rebuild the hub:
http://www.parktool.com/repair_help/coaster.shtml

It may be that you simply need to tighten the bearing cones. However,
there may be a spring broken within the hub. Or there may be worn
internal parts. Without seeing the bike in person, it's not possible
to tell.

Jeff

Julia Goolia said:

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

There are several different mechanisms used in that style
brake. What brand?

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

Get a front brake. A rear wheel only brake (regardless of it's a rim brake
or a hub brake) takes twice the distance to stop. After you get a front
brake you need to get your rear hub adjusted so it works better, but you
will also need to learn to use the front brake to stop quickly without
fliping over the bars.

Bruce

"Julia Goolia" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Hi!

I have back pedal style breaks. They are very loose, and so it takes
a while to stop (have almost died many times because i couldn't stop
in time). Does anyone know how to tighten these breaks? I tried to
search the internet for a link on this, but to no avail.

Thanks for any help!
julia

Bruce Frech said:

Get a front brake.

Yep. I recommended that too.

Quoted message said:

A rear wheel only brake (regardless of it's a rim brake
or a hub brake) takes twice the distance to stop.

That's basically true, but in practice, you can usually stop shorter
with a coaster brake than with a rear hand brake.

That's why bikes with only a coaster brake are borderline safe for
street use, while bikes with only a rear hand brake are not, no matter
how good a hand brake it is.

This is because of the weight distribution. For maximum braking with a
coaster brake, you can put almost all of your weight on the rear pedal,
which is typically 6-7 inches behind the bottom bracket.

On a freewheeling bike, you can't really apply your body's weight behind
the bottom bracket, so you can't generally get as much weight on the
rear wheel for braking traction without fairly extreme acrobatics.

Sheldon "Hates Coaster Brakes, But Acknowledges Their Good Points" Brown
+-----------------------------------+
| The gains in life come slowly, |
| but the losses come suddenly. |
| -- Garrison Keillor |
+-----------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

06 May 2004 22:31:41 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

This is because of the weight distribution. For maximum braking with a
coaster brake, you can put almost all of your weight on the rear pedal,
which is typically 6-7 inches behind the bottom bracket.

I'm gonna have to think about this a bit more, but I believe Sheldon
barking up the wrong tree here.

Yes, you are applying force on a pedal that his behind the bottom
bracket.

But, no, you haven't shifted your center of mass any more than you
would have if you were using a hand brake.

The weight distribution depends only on the center of mass. Trying to
consider the forces applied to the pedal just confuses the question.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Jim Adney said:

06 May 2004 22:31:41 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

This is because of the weight distribution. For maximum braking with a
coaster brake, you can put almost all of your weight on the rear pedal,
which is typically 6-7 inches behind the bottom bracket.

I'm gonna have to think about this a bit more, but I believe Sheldon
barking up the wrong tree here.

Yes, you are applying force on a pedal that his behind the bottom
bracket.

But, no, you haven't shifted your center of mass any more than you
would have if you were using a hand brake.

The weight distribution depends only on the center of mass. Trying to
consider the forces applied to the pedal just confuses the question.

For maximum rear braking you want to get the center of mass as far back
as possible. This is done while off the saddle, so your body's weight
can only be carried by the pedals and the handlebars.

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I don't blame
you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get your weight farther back
when you can put your whole weight on the rear pedal, rather than having
to balance it between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

I'm not sure this applies to bikes with high handlebars, such as BMX
bikes, but I have no doubt that it does to bikes with more "cruiserish"
riding position.

Sheldon "Still Hates Coaster Brakes" Brown
+-----------------------------------------------------------------+
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Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I don't blame
you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get your weight farther back
when you can put your whole weight on the rear pedal, rather than having
to balance it between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you backpedal a
coaster brake then you're certainly moving your center of mass
rearwards, but I don't think that's what many people do.

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move significantly,
and the weight distribution on the bike didn't change.

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the weight must be
either over the bottom bracket or over the rear wheel, but you're
forgetting that there are some contact forces on the handlebars and
maybe some on the seat. Plus it's important to note that forces on the
pedals need not be strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make
up for significant force in this direction.

All of which can happen without any significant movement of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel in a normal
bathroom scale. Put a book of the same thickness under the other
wheel. Now hold yourself up in the doorway, being careful to exert
minimal force on the doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake. Read it again
with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings unless you slide
off the rear of the saddle.

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My daughter's old
bike is small, but it would serve the purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

I asserted:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I don't blame
you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get your weight farther back
when you can put your whole weight on the rear pedal, rather than having
to balance it between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you backpedal a
coaster brake then you're certainly moving your center of mass
rearwards, but I don't think that's what many people do.

That is the way you do a panic stop on a coaster brake.

Quoted message said:

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move significantly,
and the weight distribution on the bike didn't change.

That's certainly correct.

Quoted message said:

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the weight must be
either over the bottom bracket or over the rear wheel, but you're
forgetting that there are some contact forces on the handlebars and
maybe some on the seat.

In the maximum-braking case I refer to, the rider would not be on the
saddle, but would probably have a locked knee on the braking leg.

Quoted message said:

Plus it's important to note that forces on the
pedals need not be strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make
up for significant force in this direction.

That's true, but those components can apply either way.

Quoted message said:

All of which can happen without any significant movement of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel in a normal
bathroom scale. Put a book of the same thickness under the other
wheel. Now hold yourself up in the doorway, being careful to exert
minimal force on the doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake. Read it again
with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings unless you slide
off the rear of the saddle.

I'd agree there.

Quoted message said:

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My daughter's old
bike is small, but it would serve the purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

There are also dynamic aspects to this, because one can bounce up and
down a bit on the rear pedal, so this test might not be altogether
conclusive.

I don't have an accessible, working coaster brake bike. My old Elgin is
buried deep under the front porch, and last I knew the New Departure
brake had become unreliable--that's a good part of the reason it got
stuffed into the under-the-front-porch morass...

I'm working from 50 year old memory here, when I used to bomb around
Marblehead on my old 24 inch wheel Rollfast, and liked to do "Brodies"
on it...

Sheldon "Stop!" Brown
+-----------------------------------------+
| The wind and waves are always on the |
| side of the ablest navigators. |
| --Edward Gibbon |
+-----------------------------------------+
Harris Cyclery, West Newton, Massachusetts
Phone 617-244-9772 FAX 617-244-1041
http://harriscyclery.com
Hard-to-find parts shipped Worldwide
http://captainbike.com http://sheldonbrown.com

Quoted message said:

08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I don't blame
you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get your weight farther back
when you can put your whole weight on the rear pedal, rather than having
to balance it between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you backpedal a
coaster brake then you're certainly moving your center of mass
rearwards, but I don't think that's what many people do.

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move significantly,
and the weight distribution on the bike didn't change.

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the weight must be
either over the bottom bracket or over the rear wheel, but you're
forgetting that there are some contact forces on the handlebars and
maybe some on the seat. Plus it's important to note that forces on the
pedals need not be strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make
up for significant force in this direction.

All of which can happen without any significant movement of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel in a normal
bathroom scale. Put a book of the same thickness under the other
wheel. Now hold yourself up in the doorway, being careful to exert
minimal force on the doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake. Read it again
with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings unless you slide
off the rear of the saddle.

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My daughter's old
bike is small, but it would serve the purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

Right.

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds ( I
voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

(hope I do better in November)
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 09 May 2004 15:25:20 -0500, A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I don't blame
you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get your weight farther back
when you can put your whole weight on the rear pedal, rather than having
to balance it between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
freewheeling bike.

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you backpedal a
coaster brake then you're certainly moving your center of mass
rearwards, but I don't think that's what many people do.

As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move significantly,
and the weight distribution on the bike didn't change.

I get the impression that you're thinking that all the weight must be
either over the bottom bracket or over the rear wheel, but you're
forgetting that there are some contact forces on the handlebars and
maybe some on the seat. Plus it's important to note that forces on the
pedals need not be strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make
up for significant force in this direction.

All of which can happen without any significant movement of the CoM.

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel in a normal
bathroom scale. Put a book of the same thickness under the other
wheel. Now hold yourself up in the doorway, being careful to exert
minimal force on the doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)

Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake. Read it again
with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)

I don't expect there to be any change in the readings unless you slide
off the rear of the saddle.

Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My daughter's old
bike is small, but it would serve the purpose.

I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

Right.

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds ( I
voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

(hope I do better in November)

Dear Andrew,

But isn't the rear tire's contact patch still trailing behind the
center of gravity and still almost useless for braking?

That is, won't the rear tire still skid almost immediately when
applied with any force? Does shifting 25 pounds however
far make any real difference?

If you're willing to work for nothing but glory, can you fit a
speedometer and front brake on this coaster bike and make
a few test runs and stops and let us know how far it takes
to stop from some speed with just a front brake, just the
rear brake, and just the rear brake with the weight-shift
to the rear?

I'd fool around with this, but I haven't seen a coaster brake
in decades.

Carl Fogel

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On Sat, 08 May 2004 09:55:37 -0400 Sheldon Brown
<[email hidden]> wrote:
>You may not have ridden a coaster brake bike lately, and I don't blame
>you, but the ergonomics of it permit you to get your weight farther back
>when you can put your whole weight on the rear pedal, rather than having
>to balance it between the two pedals, as you need to do with a
>freewheeling bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Jim Adney said:

If you move your butt backwards off the saddle when you backpedal a
coaster brake then you're certainly moving your center of mass
rearwards, but I don't think that's what many people do.
As long as your butt doesn't move, your CoM didn't move significantly,
and the weight distribution on the bike didn't change.
I get the impression that you're thinking that all the weight must be
either over the bottom bracket or over the rear wheel, but you're
forgetting that there are some contact forces on the handlebars and
maybe some on the seat. Plus it's important to note that forces on the
pedals need not be strictly vertical since the hands and arms can make
up for significant force in this direction.
All of which can happen without any significant movement of the CoM.
But, this is testable!
Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel in a normal
bathroom scale. Put a book of the same thickness under the other
wheel. Now hold yourself up in the doorway, being careful to exert
minimal force on the doorway (or get someone else to do this for you.)
Read the scale while pressing hard on the coaster brake. Read it again
with no pedal force (simulating coasting.)
I don't expect there to be any change in the readings unless you slide
off the rear of the saddle.
Hmmmm..., IIRC, there IS a coaster brake bike here. My daughter's old
bike is small, but it would serve the purpose.
I'll try to do this. You try it, too.

A Muzi <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds ( I
voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

Quoted message said:

But isn't the rear tire's contact patch still trailing behind the
center of gravity and still almost useless for braking?
That is, won't the rear tire still skid almost immediately when
applied with any force? Does shifting 25 pounds however
far make any real difference?
If you're willing to work for nothing but glory, can you fit a
speedometer and front brake on this coaster bike and make
a few test runs and stops and let us know how far it takes
to stop from some speed with just a front brake, just the
rear brake, and just the rear brake with the weight-shift
to the rear?
I'd fool around with this, but I haven't seen a coaster brake
in decades.

On a new bike with a two minute commitment that was even
interesting. You make a good point but I'll leave it to
others to carry on in this quest.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

09 May 2004 10:48:32 -0400 Sheldon Brown said:

In the maximum-braking case I refer to, the rider would not be on the
saddle, but would probably have a locked knee on the braking leg.

I agree, but it's really hard to get that locked leg back past the
wide part of the saddle, unless you have one of those banana saddles.

All in all, it sounds like we're coming to an agreement on everything
except what people actually do in a panic stop. Unfortunately this is
not something we can settle here.

My perception of this is that a panic stop is done with a locked knee
pointed down and rearwards, with the leg still just against the front
of the wide part of the saddle. Keep in mind that the BB is in front
of the saddle so not much angle is needed to do this. The force on the
body is up and forward, so you have to push against the handlebars to
counter this.

I suspect that the effect is to actually move the CoM slightly
forward, but I can't be sure of that. I'm pretty sure that no one ever
lets their leg slip past the wide part of the saddle. Any time I've
tried that it felt so awkward that I was afraid I was in danger of
losing control of the bike.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But, this is testable!

Put your coaster brake bike in a doorway and put one wheel in a normal
bathroom scale.

I just did the test, and the only effect I could see was a slight
increase in force on the FRONT wheel when I put the brakes on hard. I
think this was just "noise" not real data. To do a better test I need
air in the tires.... ;-)

Quoted message said:

I'm working from 50 year old memory here, when I used to bomb around
Marblehead on my old 24 inch wheel Rollfast, and liked to do "Brodies"
on it...

And my 24" Schwinn Flying Star (with Bendix CABLE operated 2-speed) is
still hanging in my folk's garage. It's still in good shape, so I
should take it for a spin when I go down there the end of this month.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

09 May 2004 15:25:20 -0500 A Muzi said:

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds ( I
voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

That's a pretty big change.

When I did it, using a very poorly fitting bike. the weight on the
front wheel increased from 65 to 70 lbs.

I need a better test bike, or I'll have to come down and see how you
did this.

-
-----------------------------------------------
Jim Adney [email hidden]
Madison, WI 53711 USA
-----------------------------------------------

Quoted message said:

09 May 2004 15:25:20 -0500 A Muzi said:

I bet my mechanic the change would be less than 5 pounds ( I
voted on the Adney ticket) but the results are: a change
from 145 pounds to 170 pounds (looks like Brown wins).

Jim Adney said:

That's a pretty big change.
When I did it, using a very poorly fitting bike. the weight on the
front wheel increased from 65 to 70 lbs.
I need a better test bike, or I'll have to come down and see how you
did this.

I leaned back as far as I could. I was just hanging from a
swept back cruiser handlebar, bent like limbo on a girls'
bike. That was the number without bouncing though.

You are definitely correct about one's leg in the hollow of
the saddle.

--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971