running for the ages

In article said:

Anyone have any opinions on how performace increases with
age? Certainly we all need a strong running base to race
well at any distance. But I've heard that peak running age
is between 23-30, and thereafter declines. Any ideas about
how much of a base is optimal for performace and how much
better a runner one gets with age?

You may find the WAVA tables instructive.

personal.rdg.ac.ukruncalc.hOpen ↗
tml

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article said:

Any ideas about how much of a base is optimal for
performace

This varies a lot, but I think it's fairly safe to say that
if a runner is doing less than 50 miles per week, they'll
get faster by gradually increasing milage.

The milage only helps if you adapt to it, so someone who's
on 20mpw and suddenly increases to 50mpw will not
instantaneously run like someone who consistently runs
50mpw, because they won't have adapted. They'll probably
get injured.

Since you talk about getting *faster* as you get older, I
take it you're fairly young. I wouldn't recommend making a
big push on milage until you're at least 18.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Joggers don't get better with age. What, did you think you
were like wine or something?

Thanks for the help. Actually im 21, but relatively new to
running (been going now for about a year and a half). I
think I'm still getting better. My race times are improving,
albeit more slowly than at first. What I really want to know
is whether over the next few years, with the right kind of
training of course, I can still make leaps and bounds, like
improving my marathon time by 30 mins or more
(3:29 PR right now). When I see 35 year old guys running sub
3:10 races, its hard to tell whether thats all natural
ability, or just years of getting better and more
experienced.

Hank

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Hank said:

Any ideas about how much of a base is optimal for
performace

This varies a lot, but I think it's fairly safe to say
that if a runner is doing less than 50 miles per week,
they'll get faster by gradually increasing milage.

The milage only helps if you adapt to it, so someone who's
on 20mpw and suddenly increases to 50mpw will not
instantaneously run like someone who consistently runs
50mpw, because they won't have adapted. They'll probably
get injured.

Since you talk about getting *faster* as you get older, I
take it you're fairly young. I wouldn't recommend making a
big push on milage until you're at least 18.

Cheers,

In article said:

Thanks for the help. Actually im 21, but relatively new to
running (been going now for about a year and a half). I
think I'm still getting better. My race times are
improving, albeit more slowly than at first.

Well that sounds good.

Quoted message said:

What I really want to know is whether over the next few
years, with the right kind of training of course, I can
still make leaps and bounds,

It's certainly possible that you could make steady
improvements over several years.

Quoted message said:

like improving my marathon time by 30 mins or more (3:29
PR right now).

It's almost impossible to tell, because 30 minutes is a huge
improvement (over 1 minute per mile) but most runners with
your level of experience run marathons so poorly that it's
still possible.

What are your best times for shorter races ? How much weekly
milage are you doing now ? What is your average weekly
milage over the last 6 months ? And what does your typical
week of training look like ?

If you've only been doing 20 miles per week or so, there's
plenty of room for improvement, especially in longer races
where the low milage will mean that you underperform
relative to short races.

Quoted message said:

When I see 35 year old guys running sub 3:10 races, its
hard to tell whether thats all natural ability, or just
years of getting better and more experienced.

It's a bit of both.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>,

Hank said:

Anyone have any opinions on how performace increases with
age? Certainly we all need a strong running base to race
well at any distance. But I've heard that peak running age
is between 23-30, and thereafter declines. Any ideas about
how much of a base is optimal for performace and how much
better a runner one gets with age?

Its not answering your question but Steve Moneghetti at
41 finished
30/120 in the men's long course World Cross Country this
week. Steve came out of retirement to bolster the
Australian team which managed a best ever 5th. If Steve
wasn't notionally retired he would presumably done
better, but no doubt well short of his best place in this
event 4th in 1989.

Offtopic but I have to mention Benita Johnson's winning in
the women's long course.

Andrew taylor

To answer these questions: -My best times for shorter races
vary, but here they are 10k: 42:00- (set 2 weeks ago, 2
weeks after my last marathon) 10mi: 1:11:11 Marathon: 3:29 I
havent raced too many other distances, at least not in the
last year or so. -As far as weekly mileage right now, coming
off the marathon 4 weeks ago I'm still not at the base I
want to maintain through the spring, but its about 35 miles
per week now. -My average weekly mileage over the past 6
months is probably about the same, 30-35 miles per week. I
peaked around 45-48 miles per week for the 3 or 4 hardest
training weeks before the marathon before I tapered, and a
typical training week used to be just 6-7 easy/medium runs
at marathon pace or a bit faster but I've started to do some
more speedwork now.

I feel my problem is more endurance than speed. During a 10k
or 10mi race, it is a lot easier for me to keep up a fast
pace than it is in the marathon, where after 36k the race
really starts to get the best of me.

Hank

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Hank said:

Thanks for the help. Actually im 21, but relatively new
to running (been going now for about a year and a half).
I think I'm still getting better. My race times are
improving, albeit more slowly than at first.

Well that sounds good.

Quoted message said:

What I really want to know is whether over the next few
years, with the right kind of training of course, I can
still make leaps and bounds,

It's certainly possible that you could make steady
improvements over several years.

Quoted message said:

like improving my marathon time by 30 mins or more (3:29
PR right now).

It's almost impossible to tell, because 30 minutes is a
huge improvement (over 1 minute per mile) but most runners
with your level of experience run marathons so poorly that
it's still possible.

What are your best times for shorter races ? How much
weekly milage are you doing now ? What is your average
weekly milage over the last 6 months ? And what does your
typical week of training look like ?

If you've only been doing 20 miles per week or so, there's
plenty of room for improvement, especially in longer races
where the low milage will mean that you underperform
relative to short races.

Quoted message said:

When I see 35 year old guys running sub 3:10 races, its
hard to tell whether thats all natural ability, or just
years of getting better and more experienced.

It's a bit of both.

Cheers,

In article said:

To answer these questions: -My best times for shorter
races vary, but here they are 10k: 42:00- (set 2 weeks
ago, 2 weeks after my last marathon) 10mi: 1:11:11
Marathon: 3:29 I havent raced too many other distances, at
least not in the last year or so. -As far as weekly
mileage right now, coming off the marathon 4 weeks ago I'm
still not at the base I want to maintain through the
spring, but its about 35 miles per week now. -My average
weekly mileage over the past 6 months is probably about
the same, 30-35 miles per week. I peaked around 45-48
miles per week for the 3 or 4 hardest training weeks
before the marathon before I tapered, and a typical
training week used to be just 6-7 easy/medium runs at
marathon pace or a bit faster but I've started to do some
more speedwork now.

I feel my problem is more endurance than speed. During a
10k or 10mi race, it is a lot easier for me to keep up a
fast pace than it is in the marathon, where after 36k the
race really starts to get the best of me.

Your marathon is slow relative to your other times (the 10k
and 10 mile are at least comparable, 10k is a bit better)

You're probably right about your diagnosis. I joined a club
a while ago, and this led me to some interesting
observations. Basically, I was at one stage beating these
guys during short intervals, but being beaten in longer
races (10k and up). I discovered that some of these guys
were doing more milage than
me. I upped my milage to about 50mpw and it helped a lot.
30-35 miles per week is barely good enough to survive a
10k race, let alone a half or a marathon.

The bottom line is that you'll not only improve your 10k to
half marathon times by upping milage, you'll also probably
bring your marathon time in line with your new and improved
10k times.

Anyway, I think you could probably continue to make
substantial improvements by steadily increasing milage, and
then add more speed work once you've built your milage
higher. It takes a while to really build milage properly.
Here's a rough schedule for building milage and adding
speed work:

week 1-3: 38mpw 4-6: 42mpw, strides 7-9: 45mpw, "easy"
speedwork: fartlek, tempos, short repeats. Races optional.
9-12: 48mpw, ditto. 13-18: 50mpw, hard speed work: 1200m
repeats on a track twice a week. Enter races if you can,
especially 5-10k. A 5-10k race counts as one of your weekly
speed workouts.
19: 40mpw, cut back to 1 hard speed work a week 20+: enter a
10k race, and a 5k if you like.

While this seems like a long time (the first 6 weeks of the
buildup are a bit of a test of patience), there's a good
chance you'll see results early in the cycle, and blow away
your 10k PR in weeks 7-12. If this happens, you're in very
good shape, because you'll get even faster once the
interval work kicks in. A purist would probably recommend
against running races early in the program, but I think a
for someone still making steady gains, frequent racing is a
good idea.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

In article <[email hidden]>, Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

[snip]

Just a bit of context-- that schedule is just a general
purpose plan for getting your 10k times down. If you don't
have any marathons scheduled over the next 6 months, it
should work quite well for that purpose.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

[email hidden] (Hank) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

To answer these questions: -My best times for shorter
races vary, but here they are 10k: 42:00- (set 2 weeks
ago, 2 weeks after my last marathon) 10mi: 1:11:11
Marathon: 3:29 I havent raced too many other distances, at
least not in the last year or so. -As far as weekly
mileage right now, coming off the marathon 4 weeks ago I'm
still not at the base I want to maintain through the
spring, but its about 35 miles per week now. -My average
weekly mileage over the past 6 months is probably about
the same, 30-35 miles per week. I peaked around 45-48
miles per week for the 3 or 4 hardest training weeks
before the marathon before I tapered, and a typical
training week used to be just 6-7 easy/medium runs at
marathon pace or a bit faster but I've started to do some
more speedwork now.

I feel my problem is more endurance than speed. During a
10k or 10mi race, it is a lot easier for me to keep up a
fast pace than it is in the marathon, where after 36k the
race really starts to get the best of me.

So it looks like you are in a great position to improve,
with just upping the weekly mileage. 45-48mpw peak mileage
in a marathon plan is low, and getting a 3:29 out of that
should encourage you.

Check out this page, lots of information for people who are
picking up an endurance sport later than usual:
home.hia.noexphys.htmOpen ↗ Click on "running"
at the bottom of the page and read the article titled "How
long does it take to reach your peak as a late blooming
Masters athlete?" It might be relevant to your questions.

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

30-35 miles per week is barely good enough to survive a
10k race

Depends on what you mean by "surviving". I do a 10k at
without problems, as long as it's not too often (either as a
race or an exercise run), but then I'm slow anyway. And I
don't do anything like 30mpw, I'm lucky if I do 20 including
my walk days. bj

In article said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

30-35 miles per week is barely good enough to survive a
10k race

Depends on what you mean by "surviving". I do a 10k at
without problems, as long as it's not too often (either as
a race or an exercise run), but then I'm slow anyway. And
I don't do anything like 30mpw, I'm lucky if I do 20
including my walk days.

Sorry, I meant to actually run it fairly quickly. Sure, you
could probably get through a 10k run on as little as 10mpw,
especially if you did some cross training. But you need much
more than that to race your best.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

My "best" is limited by what my body (especially knees &
ankles) can take.

For me, what I do *is* my best! Some races are better than
others (pace-wise), but most have been as good as I can do
on that day. A couple of times I've been flabbergasted at
how well I did, but I can't count on getting the same
results all the time.

Now if you mean "better than some of the other speedier better-
runners even in my age group", then yes, I'd need to do more
-- but I can only do what I *can* do. bj

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

bj said:

"Donovan Rebbechi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

30-35 miles per week is barely good enough to survive a
10k race

Depends on what you mean by "surviving". I do a 10k at
without problems, as long as it's not too often
(either as

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

race or an exercise run), but then I'm slow anyway. And
I don't do

anything

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like 30mpw, I'm lucky if I do 20 including my walk days.

Sorry, I meant to actually run it fairly quickly. Sure,
you could probably get through a 10k run on as little as
10mpw, especially if you did some

cross

Quoted message said:

training. But you need much more than that to race
your best.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Donovan Rebbechi said:

30-35 miles per week is barely good enough to survive a
10k race, let alone a half or a marathon.

For the record, at 20-25 mpw, I can more than survive a 10k.
What I can't "survive" is 30-35 mpw 😉.

--
ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,-
,ø¤º eNo "If you can't go fast, go long." ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°-
`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º°`°º¤ø¤º°`°º¤ø,,,,ø¤º

Thanks for all of the advice from everyone. I have some time
this summer when school lets out so I'll work on upping the
mileage then while picking out a fall marathon. I decided
the one in February was enough for the next few months so
I'll make the races fewer and work on quality instead.

Hank

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
Donovan Rebbechi wrote:

[snip]

Just a bit of context-- that schedule is just a general
purpose plan for getting your 10k times down. If you don't
have any marathons scheduled over the next 6 months, it
should work quite well for that purpose.

Cheers,

In article said:

Thanks for all of the advice from everyone. I have some
time this summer when school lets out so I'll work on
upping the mileage then while picking out a fall marathon.
I decided the one in February was

Good idea. Summer is best used for milage building, you're
more likely to run a good half-marathon when it's cooler.

Quoted message said:

enough for the next few months so I'll make the races
fewer and work on quality instead.

What do you mean by this exactly ? IMO once you've built
some milage and begin speed work, racing once a month or so
should be OK (just replace one of your speed workouts with
the race). If your primary goal is to run a good marathon,
you should probably look for 10k and half marathon races (in
addition to the marathon, of course).

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗

Of course you're right about the races. To clarify, I meant just the marathons. 🙂

Hank

Donovan Rebbechi <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Hank said:

Thanks for all of the advice from everyone. I have some
time this summer when school lets out so I'll work on
upping the mileage then while picking out a fall
marathon. I decided the one in February was

Good idea. Summer is best used for milage building, you're
more likely to run a good half-marathon when it's cooler.

Quoted message said:

enough for the next few months so I'll make the races
fewer and work on quality instead.

What do you mean by this exactly ? IMO once you've built
some milage and begin speed work, racing once a month or
so should be OK (just replace one of your speed workouts
with the race). If your primary goal is to run a good
marathon, you should probably look for 10k and half
marathon races (in addition to the marathon, of course).

Cheers,

In article <[email hidden]>,

eNo said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

30-35 miles per week is barely good enough to survive a
10k race, let alone a half or a marathon.

For the record, at 20-25 mpw, I can more than survive a
10k. What I can't "survive" is 30-35 mpw 😉.

Struck me as an odd statement too. I've done more than
'survive' a 10k on 20-25 mpw, indeed my PR was set on
about that -- beating the PR from when I was running 35
mpw or so. 20-25 mpw is even enough for me to race a
decent (for me) 10 miler.

Chances are, to reach the 30-40 km/week of that less
than enough to survive level, one will be running 10 km
in a single run at least once in the week. Again, better
than survive.

My current 7 mpw, however, is distinctly on the 'barely
enough to survive a 10k' end of things.

--
Robert Grumbine radix.net~bobgOpen ↗ Science faqs and
amateur activities notes and links. Sagredo (Galileo
Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less
appreciated than they would be had they been presented in a
more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

In article said:

In article <[email hidden]>, eNo

Quoted message said:

Donovan Rebbechi said:

30-35 miles per week is barely good enough to survive a
10k race, let alone a half or a marathon.

For the record, at 20-25 mpw, I can more than survive a
10k. What I can't "survive" is 30-35 mpw 😉.

Struck me as an odd statement too. I've done more than
'survive' a 10k on 20-25 mpw, indeed my PR was set on
about that -- beating the PR from when I was running 35
mpw or so. 20-25 mpw is even enough for me to race a
decent (for me) 10 miler.

Are you trying to argue that 20-25 mpw or less is optimal
milage for 10k performance for you ? That doesn't seem
plausible.

Since I don't have access to all the data in this case, I
can only speculate on why 35mpw didn't produce a better
performance than 25 (there are a number of factors that
affect performance) but suffice it to say that I don't
believe 25mpw or less is even close to optimal for anyone
racing a 10k.

Quoted message said:

Chances are, to reach the 30-40 km/week of that less
than enough to survive level, one will be running 10 km
in a single run at least once in the week. Again, better
than survive.

Sure. You could probably make it to the finish line on about
10mpw. But you're not going to run a terribly good time on
that milage.

Quoted message said:

My current 7 mpw, however, is distinctly on the 'barely
enough to survive a 10k' end of things.

Ramp it up to about 10mpw and you'll be fine (-;

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi pegasus.rutgers.edu~elflordOpen ↗