Leg cramps

Quoted message said:

Subject: Leg cramps
From: Kevin D. Quitt [email hidden]
Date: 11/22/2003 10:56 AM Mountain Standard Time
Message-id: <[email hidden]>

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn into cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended
up with virtually no sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost 10AM, and I'm still having
the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping I can buy a clue here.

Quinine ... an iron binder .. first line of defense ..

Since quinine is an iron binder .. and since iron reduction therapy has now been recommended for so
many people with diabetes .. this article which speaks to the use of riboflavin .. ANOTHER iron
binder .. might be of interest.

J Clin Pharmacol 1998 Dec;38(12):1151-4

Randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled study of the safety and efficacy of vitamin B complex
in the treatment of nocturnal leg cramps in elderly patients with hypertension.

Chan P, Huang TY, Chen YJ, Huang WP, Liu YC Division of Cardiovascular Medicine, Taipei Medical
College, Taipei Wan Fang Hospital, No. 111, Hsin Lung Road, Section 3, Wen Shan, Taipei, Taiwan 117.

Nocturnal leg cramps is a common and troublesome problem in elderly individuals, and their etiology
is unknown. Treatment with quinine is a common practice, but the effectiveness of the drug is
doubtful and adverse drug effects are common. This randomized, double-blind, placebo-controlled
study was conducted to evaluate the safety and efficacy of vitamin B complex capsules
(fursulthiamine 50 mg, hydroxocobalamin 250 micrograms, pyridoxal phosphate 30 mg, and riboflavin 5
mg) in 28 elderly patients with hypertension who had severe nocturnal leg cramps that disturbed
their sleep. Self-reported ratings of leg cramp frequency, duration, and intensity were used to
evaluate severity of nocturnal leg cramps. Both the patients taking vitamin B capsules (n = 14) and
those taking placebo (n = 14) received medications three times daily, and were examined regularly at
2-week intervals for 3 months. After 3 months, 86% of the patients taking vitamin B had prominent
remission of leg cramps, whereas those taking placebo had no significant difference from baseline.
Treatment with vitamin B complex significantly reduced the frequency, intensity, and duration of
nocturnal leg cramps. Because quinine is not without potential for side effects, and vitamin B
complex is a relatively safe and effective alternative, clinicians should reconsider the treatment
of choice for nocturnal leg cramps.

Publication Types:

Clinical trial Randomized controlled trial PMID: 11301568, UI: 21197087

NIGHTTIME LEG CRAMPS A simple stretching exercise has been reported 100% effective in relieving
nocturnal leg cramps. The cramp sufferer is told to stand barefooted, two to three feet from a wall.
Place the hands on the wall, and lean forward, keeping the heels on the floor until a pulling
sensation (but not pain) is felt in the calf. Hold the position for 10 seconds, relax for 5 seconds,
and then repeat. The exercise should be done three times daily until the cramps are gone, and then
repeated as necessary to prevent further cramping. Nearly half of the patients reported total relief
within 24 to 72 hours. All responded within one week. (New England Journal of Medicine
301(4)216, July 26, 1979

Who loves ya. Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian! jesuswasavegetarian.7h.comjesuswasavegetarian.7h.comOpen ↗ Man Is A Herbivore!
pages.ivillage.commanisaherbivoreOpen ↗ DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
pages.ivillage.comdeadpeoplewalkingOpen ↗

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn

into

Quoted message said:

cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended up with

virtually no

Quoted message said:

sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost

10AM,

Quoted message said:

and I'm still having the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping I

can

Quoted message said:

buy a clue here.

_

Quoted message said:

Kevin D. Quitt

Are you taking any of the statin drugs (Zocor, Lipitor)? An unpleasant side effect is leg cramps.

Dora

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 09:56:46 -0800, Kevin D. Quitt <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn into cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended
up with virtually no sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost 10AM, and I'm still having
the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping I can buy a clue here.

I know how you feel; I have had times when I actually thought my calf muscle would snap my bone. I
take quinine bisulphate, prescribed by my doctor, but only when the cramps attack. There can be side-
effects, so read the documentation and discontinue if they have a negative effect. They don't work
in every case, but can help severity. Bananas (potassium) may help but will also raise your BGs.

Another poster mentioned cramp as a statin side-effect. I take Lipitor, but I used to cramp before I
started on it.

I have found that I can reduce the effect (sometimes) if I jump out out of bed as soon as I notice
the first indication and go for a walk around the living room. Not usually a problem, but it caused
some consternation the night I forgot we had guests. I sleep naked.

Cheers Alan, T2, Oz dx May 2002 , no meds, diet and not enough exercise. A1c was 8.2, now 5.8 Wt was
117 kg (257 lbs) now 91 (200).
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn

into

Quoted message said:

cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended up with

virtually no

Quoted message said:

sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost

10AM,

Quoted message said:

and I'm still having the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping I

can

Quoted message said:

buy a clue here.

Could be Neuropathy. Could be a vein problem. Could be lack of calcium. Check your calcium intake.
If you think you are not getting enough, try OTC calcium pills. Try taking MSM. That too is OTC but
takes about 3 weeks to kick in. Helps with cramps though. Quinine can help too. Try some diet Tonic
Water. And see your Dr.!

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

Thank you to all who replied. The irony here is that I'm usually the one answering on this topic,
telling people about potassium chloride (salt substitute) and its near-miraculous speed in
relieving cramps in one's calves. Unfortunately, KCl does nothing (for me) for the cramps in the
front of my leg.

I am not on any drugs that cause cramping. My calcium intake is nominal. I don't use quinine for
several reasons, but primarily because it is ototoxic. For the in-front type, I've found that heat
works, but not quickly, and usually only for as long as the heat is applied.

While I'd prefer not to get night cramps, I'd be much happier getting just the charley-horse type
because those go away in a couple seconds with the KCl. Stretching along doesn't do the trick
because sometimes the charley-horse is accompanied by the front-cramps, and stretching one makes the
other worse.

What had me worried about these, was that I still had them during the morning after and into the
afternoon. Gods, but getting old sucks; I'm less and less convinced that it's better than the
alternative.

--
_ Kevin D. Quitt 91387-4454 [email hidden]
96.37% of all statistics are made up

limey said:

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn

into

Quoted message said:

cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended up with

virtually no

Quoted message said:

sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost

10AM,

Quoted message said:

and I'm still having the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping I

can

Quoted message said:

buy a clue here.

Low blood levels of electrolytes such as potassium or salt, or a mineral like magnesium or calcium
are possibilities. If it continues, simple blood tests would rule those out. Do a google search on
the general term and also in newsgroups for "restless leg syndrome", which is another possibility if
persists. In any case, if it persists, you need a doctor to narrow it down. There are too many
different causes, each of which require different treatments. Don't start medicating yourself. It is
not an uncommon problem, and can usually be treated.

Dennis (Type 2)

On Sat, 22 Nov 2003 14:05:45 -0500, "limey" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn

into

Quoted message said:

cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended up with

virtually no

Quoted message said:

sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost

10AM,

Quoted message said:

and I'm still having the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping I

can

Quoted message said:

buy a clue here.

_

Quoted message said:

Kevin D. Quitt

Are you taking any of the statin drugs (Zocor, Lipitor)? An unpleasant side effect is leg cramps.

Dora

Could be a Charley Horse. Did you try walking it off? If it is a reaction to a statin, stop taking
the statin NOW, and get a hold of your doc ASAP.

Sleepy

--------------------------------------------------
If you think nobody cares, try missing a couple of payments.
--------------------------------------------------

I suffer from sometimes severe leg and foot cramps too, Alan. Although now that it's almost summer
in Melbourne (although right now you wouldn't know it) I still keep my electric blanket on 1 most
nights, sometimes needing to set it on 2 when I get a bout of cramps.

I've read many discussions on cramps here, but I must admit that you are the first person to add
some humour to it...

--
Henry

remove spam to reply

"Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kevin D. Quitt said:

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn

into

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended up with

virtually no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost

10AM,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and I'm still having the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping

I can

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

buy a clue here.

I know how you feel; I have had times when I actually thought my calf muscle would snap my bone.
I take quinine bisulphate, prescribed by my doctor, but only when the cramps attack. There can be
side-effects, so read the documentation and discontinue if they have a negative effect. They
don't work in every case, but can help severity. Bananas (potassium) may help but will also raise
your BGs.

Another poster mentioned cramp as a statin side-effect. I take Lipitor, but I used to cramp before
I started on it.

I have found that I can reduce the effect (sometimes) if I jump out out of bed as soon as I notice
the first indication and go for a walk around the living room. Not usually a problem, but it
caused some consternation the night I forgot we had guests. I sleep naked.

Cheers Alan, T2, Oz dx May 2002 , no meds, diet and not enough exercise. A1c was 8.2, now 5.8 Wt
was 117 kg (257 lbs) now 91 (200).
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

Kevin What seems to work fairly well for me is to drink a glass of cold water. For some reason this
shortens the time for the cramp to subside. As always YMMV and probably will. Howard

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thank you to all who replied. The irony here is that I'm usually the one answering on this topic,
telling people about potassium chloride (salt substitute) and its near-miraculous speed in
relieving cramps in one's

calves.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, KCl does nothing (for me) for the cramps in the front of my

leg.

Quoted message said:

I am not on any drugs that cause cramping. My calcium intake is nominal.

I

Quoted message said:

don't use quinine for several reasons, but primarily because it is

ototoxic.

Quoted message said:

For the in-front type, I've found that heat works, but not quickly, and

usually

Quoted message said:

only for as long as the heat is applied.

While I'd prefer not to get night cramps, I'd be much happier getting just

the

Quoted message said:

charley-horse type because those go away in a couple seconds with the KCl. Stretching along
doesn't do the trick because sometimes the charley-horse

is

Quoted message said:

accompanied by the front-cramps, and stretching one makes the other worse.

What had me worried about these, was that I still had them during the

morning

Quoted message said:

after and into the afternoon. Gods, but getting old sucks; I'm less and

less

Quoted message said:

convinced that it's better than the alternative.

--
_ Kevin D. Quitt 91387-4454 [email hidden]
96.37% of all statistics are made up

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thank you to all who replied. The irony here is that I'm usually the one answering on this topic,
telling people about potassium chloride (salt substitute) and its near-miraculous speed in
relieving cramps in one's

calves.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, KCl does nothing (for me) for the cramps in the front of my

leg.

Quoted message said:

I am not on any drugs that cause cramping. My calcium intake is nominal.

I

Quoted message said:

don't use quinine for several reasons, but primarily because it is

ototoxic.

Quoted message said:

For the in-front type, I've found that heat works, but not quickly, and

usually

Quoted message said:

only for as long as the heat is applied.

While I'd prefer not to get night cramps, I'd be much happier getting just

the

Quoted message said:

charley-horse type because those go away in a couple seconds with the KCl. Stretching along
doesn't do the trick because sometimes the charley-horse

is

Quoted message said:

accompanied by the front-cramps, and stretching one makes the other worse.

What had me worried about these, was that I still had them during the

morning

Quoted message said:

after and into the afternoon. Gods, but getting old sucks; I'm less and

less

Quoted message said:

convinced that it's better than the alternative.

I have had cramps like yours and honestly don't know if they relate to my Neuropathy, the thyroid
problem, the leg vein problem if it's a combination of things. There is little I've found to relieve
them. Usually, I'll manage to hobble out of bed and must force my entire body weight on to one or
both legs, depending on where the cramp is. Sometimes the cramps are so severe that I must stay in a
precarious position for 15-20 minutes before the weight of my own body is enough to force the
muscles down so I can stand. And even then, it might be another 15-20 minutes before I'm able to
walk because the slightest movement will cause the cramp to come back. Luckily I haven't had cramps
this severe in a long time.

I had an MRI done because my Dr. suspected MS. They found nothing at all wrong with my brain. Wish I
could offer you more helpful advice!

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

"hemyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suffer from sometimes severe leg and foot cramps

too, Alan. Although now

Quoted message said:

that it's almost summer in Melbourne

Melbourne has a summer? 🙂

Julie Bove said:

I have had cramps like yours and honestly don't know if they relate to my Neuropathy, the thyroid
problem, the leg vein problem if it's a combination of things. There is little I've found to
relieve them. Usually, I'll manage to hobble out of bed and must force my entire body weight on to
one or both legs, depending on where the cramp is. Sometimes the cramps are so severe that I must
stay in a precarious position for 15-20 minutes before the weight of my own body is enough to force
the muscles down so I can stand. And even then, it might be another 15-20 minutes before I'm able
to walk because the slightest movement will cause the cramp to come back. Luckily I haven't had
cramps this severe in a long time.

I had an MRI done because my Dr. suspected MS. They found nothing at all wrong with my brain. Wish
I could offer you more helpful advice!

The first time I saw severe leg cramps being discussed was on my CLL list, not diabetes. I have also
seen it discussed on alt.support.arthritis.

I don't have the answer, but it seems to me that leg cramps are a totally seperate problem, although
there may be some common factors involving circulation and nerves.

Considering the prevalence of the problem and the lack of clear advice from doctors on leg cramps,
it is surprising that there isn't more direct research into it.

Cheers Alan, T2, Oz dx May 2002 , no meds, diet and not enough exercise.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 16:42:12 -0500, "Julie Bove" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

There is little I've found to relieve them.

Have you tried potassium chloride, sold as salt substitute? For cramps in my calf muscles, KCl
obliterates them in seconds. There is no known explanation as to why.

--
_ Kevin D. Quitt 91387-4454 [email hidden]
96.37% of all statistics are made up

I get leg/foot cramps at night on and off. Generally, but not always, they are related to my feet
being cold. Often I can feel foot cramps coming on when there is a sort of a movement in my muscles.
Sometimes one or the other foot will feel as if it's "solidifying", sort of like it's being
compressed - very painful. Someimes I will lie there trying to stay asleep while the cramps are
increasing in intensity, until inevitably I have to get up and walk around to try to ease them.
Sometimes I will get a sudden muscle cramp in my upper leg, which will make me jump. Often
stretching a limb will bring on a violent cramp, as if one of my muscles got twisted. As I said in
an earlier post, in my case my cramps go away when I increase the heat on my electric blanket.
Unfortunately often that is too hot.

--
Henry

remove spam to reply

"Julie Bove" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Thank you to all who replied. The irony here is that I'm usually the

one

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

answering on this topic, telling people about potassium chloride (salt substitute) and its near-
miraculous speed in relieving cramps in one's

calves.

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, KCl does nothing (for me) for the cramps in the front of

my

Quoted message said:

leg.

Quoted message said:

I am not on any drugs that cause cramping. My calcium intake is

nominal.

Quoted message said:

I

Quoted message said:

don't use quinine for several reasons, but primarily because it is

ototoxic.

Quoted message said:

For the in-front type, I've found that heat works, but not quickly, and

usually

Quoted message said:

only for as long as the heat is applied.

While I'd prefer not to get night cramps, I'd be much happier getting

just

Quoted message said:

the

Quoted message said:

charley-horse type because those go away in a couple seconds with the

KCl.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Stretching along doesn't do the trick because sometimes the

charley-horse

Quoted message said:

is

Quoted message said:

accompanied by the front-cramps, and stretching one makes the other

worse.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What had me worried about these, was that I still had them during the

morning

Quoted message said:

after and into the afternoon. Gods, but getting old sucks; I'm less and

less

Quoted message said:

convinced that it's better than the alternative.

I have had cramps like yours and honestly don't know if they relate to my Neuropathy, the thyroid
problem, the leg vein problem if it's a

combination

Quoted message said:

of things. There is little I've found to relieve them. Usually, I'll manage to hobble out of bed
and must force my entire body weight on to one or both legs, depending on where the cramp is.
Sometimes the cramps are

so

Quoted message said:

severe that I must stay in a precarious position for 15-20 minutes before the weight of my own
body is enough to force the muscles down so I can stand. And even then, it might be another 15-20
minutes before I'm able

to

Quoted message said:

walk because the slightest movement will cause the cramp to come back. Luckily I haven't had
cramps this severe in a long time.

I had an MRI done because my Dr. suspected MS. They found nothing at all wrong with my brain. Wish
I could offer you more helpful advice!

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 13:31:20 +1100, "Ozgirl" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

"hemyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suffer from sometimes severe leg and foot cramps

too, Alan. Although now

Quoted message said:

that it's almost summer in Melbourne

Melbourne has a summer? 🙂

Be nice :-)

It actually gets a bloody sight hotter than up here on the Tweed in February and March, nearly
always has a fortnight of over 37 (100F) sometime in Feb.

I still remember Ash Wednesday in '83, when the Dandenongs burnt. 43C (110F) in my lounge rooom in
Glen Waverley.

Cheers Alan, T2, Oz dx May 2002 , no meds, diet and not enough exercise.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

"Kevin D. Quitt" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Julie Bove said:

There is little I've found to relieve them.

Have you tried potassium chloride, sold as salt substitute? For cramps in

my

Quoted message said:

calf muscles, KCl obliterates them in seconds. There is no known

explanation as

Quoted message said:

to why.

No, because I'm on a potassium sparing diuretic, so that's not advised. I did have a potassium
deficiency when first diagnosed with diabetes and was taking KDur (prescription potassium) then. I
was being carefully monitored and that was stopped as soon as my potassium level was up to where it
should be. I am still monitored and my potassium levels are fine.

--
Type 2 users.bestweb.net~jboveOpen ↗

Last week we in Melbourne had two days of 36 degrees plus (that's over 90
American). Went to the beach both days. Today and the last couple of days,
well, it was 15....... : (

--
Henry

remove spam to reply

"Ozgirl" <[email hidden]> wrote in message -"]news:[email hidden]-
berlin.de...

Quoted message said:

"hemyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suffer from sometimes severe leg and foot cramps

too, Alan. Although now

Quoted message said:

that it's almost summer in Melbourne

Melbourne has a summer? 🙂

I remember once doing work in Albury in January, stepping out from my car into 47 degree heat (in
the shade). It was painful to breathe...

--
Henry

remove spam to reply

"Alan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Ozgirl said:

"hemyd" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I suffer from sometimes severe leg and foot cramps

too, Alan. Although now

Quoted message said:

that it's almost summer in Melbourne

Melbourne has a summer? 🙂

Be nice :-)

It actually gets a bloody sight hotter than up here on the Tweed in February and March, nearly
always has a fortnight of over 37 (100F) sometime in Feb.

I still remember Ash Wednesday in '83, when the Dandenongs burnt. 43C (110F) in my lounge rooom in
Glen Waverley.

Cheers Alan, T2, Oz dx May 2002 , no meds, diet and not enough exercise.
--
Everything in Moderation - Except Laughter.

I don't know if this will help. I am not diabetic but some of my children and husband are but we use
Quinine Water and drink it several times a day for calf and thigh spasms. We also take large amounts
of Calcium and Magnesium. Hope this helps. Mary Belle Bistour's mother House sitting for only 16
more hours and then no more computer time.

Kevin D. Quitt said:

Last night, I started to get leg cramps. Not the who-the-hell-kicked- me-in-my-calf-and-gave-me-a-charlie-
horse, but twitches that would turn into cramps if I don't move or change my position. So I ended
up with virtually no sleep.

What has me really concerned is that I'm still having them. It's almost 10AM, and I'm still having
the them. I don't know what I can do, and I hoping I can buy a clue here.