Thanks much

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:19:17 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I do know one thing. Whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ, God will listen to you if you
speak directly to him. The notion put forth here br Dr. Chung that somehow we aren't good enough to
speak directly to God and must do so though Jesus and ONLY through Jesus is without a doubt the
most ludicrous thing I have ever read on the Internet - and there are a LOT of ludicrous things on
the Internet.

Unfortunately, there are many who believe just that, not just Dr. Chung. Fanatical religious belief
has created more sorrow and pain in this world than anything else.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 16:19:17 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I do know one thing. Whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ, God will listen to you if you
speak directly to him. The notion put forth here br Dr. Chung that somehow we aren't good enough to
speak directly to God and must do so though Jesus and ONLY through Jesus is without a doubt the
most ludicrous thing I have ever read on the Internet - and there are a LOT of ludicrous things on
the Internet.

Including you thinking Chung=Mu.

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031122.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Quoted message said:

From: Stephen Nagler [email hidden]

Quoted message said:

I have re-read through all the threads I participated in and would like to offer you a thought.
Whether or not you believe in Jesus, do take time to speak *directly* with God - be you Christian,
Jew, Buddhist, Moslem, Hindu, whatever. In fact consider speaking with God even if you're not sure
He exists - you could be wrong!

I do know one thing. Whether or not you believe in Jesus Christ, God will listen to you if you
speak directly to him. The notion put forth here br Dr. Chung that somehow we aren't good enough to
speak directly to God and must do so though Jesus and ONLY through Jesus is without a doubt the
most ludicrous thing I have ever read on the Internet - and there are a LOT of ludicrous things on
the Internet.

Ah, Steven, I don't believe that Dr. Chung has said any such thing, i.e., that one can speak to God
only through Jesus Christ. I suspect that most Christians would subscribe to the notion that anyone
can petition God directly in prayer. Most Christians would also subscribe to the notion that
invoking the name of Jesus in the prayer makes the prayer "more powerful". Many Christians end their
prayers by saying something like, "I ask these thing in the name of Jesus, Amen." Surely you've
heard this before.

You may be confusing the above with the Christian belief that *salvation* is only through Jesus
Christ. Jesus Himself said so numerous times in the Gospels. Obviously, people who subscribe to
other religions such as Judaism or Islam do not accept this. Nevertheless, that does not make what
Dr. Chung has said about salvation to be ludicrous, unless you take all of Christianity to be
ludicrous.

Happy New Year, John

Mon, 29 Dec 2003 12:24:53 -0500 in article

Quoted message said:

Fanatical religious belief has created more sorrow and pain in this world than anything else.

Exactly, and that proves Dr. Nagler's point.

--
Matti Narkia

[email hidden] wrote in part:

Quoted message said:

Fanatical religious belief has created more sorrow and pain in this world than anything else.

And the fanatics see that as a plus.
--
Jim Chinnis Warrenton, Virginia, USA

(John9212112) said:

Ah, Steven, I don't believe that Dr. Chung has said any such thing, i.e., that one can speak to God
only through Jesus Christ. I suspect that most Christians would subscribe to the notion that anyone
can petition God directly in prayer. Most Christians would also subscribe to the notion that
invoking the name of Jesus in the prayer makes the prayer "more powerful". Many Christians end
their prayers by saying something like, "I ask these thing in the name of Jesus, Amen." Surely
you've heard this before.

....................

I posted:

Quoted message said:

If it [praying directly to God] was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!

Dr. Chung responded:

Quoted message said:

It is not a question of whether the Father is good enough for you but whether you are good enough
for the Father. I am not good enough for the Father. That's why I need Jesus and am thankful to Him
for saving me.

Message seems pretty clear to me: Man is not good enough to speak directly to God and therefore
needs Jesus.

Look, let me make it clear for the very last time. I respect Dr. Chung's right to believe what he
believes. But if Dr. Chung is arguing that I (or anybody else) am "not good enough" to pray directly
to God, then in my humble opinion he is WAY WAY over the line.

You said above that you suspect that "most Christians would subscribe to the notion that anyone can
petition God directly in prayer." I happen to believe you, but that is in direct conflict with the
position espoused by Dr. Chung. I'd suggest that Dr. Chung take it up with God, but apparently he
cannot do that. He's "not good enough." Interesting that I think he is! I think that *anyone* is
"good enough" to speak with God. Moreover I think that God listens to each of us with equal
intensity and with equal love - no matter who we are.

Now I am trying to make a graceful exit from this newsgroup. I wish no body here any ill will. But
the condescending attitude of some (like Dr. Chung, who has the unmitigated gall to publicly post
that he pities me) is enough to make me vomit.

smn

(John9212112) said:

Quoted message said:

Message seems pretty clear to me: Man is not good enough to speak directly to God and therefore
needs Jesus.

But he didn't say that. He proposes a question. Then he states what the answer to that question is
for himself, leaving it entirely open as to what you feel the answer is for you. Or me.

...............

Maybe you are right. But that sure wasn't my sense of it.

Very easy to settle, though.

Let Dr. Chung post here and now that in his opinion I [Stephen Nagler] can pray directly to God and
be effectively heard - heard as well as any Christian - without my needing Jesus, and I will
certainly stand corrected.

smn

Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:47:51 GMT in article
<[email hidden]> Stephen Nagler

Quoted message said:

Now I am trying to make a graceful exit from this newsgroup.

I wish you'd stay. It would be nice to have one sane doctor in this ng. Or two when Dr. Patrick
Blanchard is also posting.

Quoted message said:

I wish no body here any ill will. But the condescending attitude of some (like Dr. Chung, who has
the unmitigated gall to publicly post that he pities me) is enough to make me vomit.

You could always killfile Chung, his sock puppets and alter egos.

--
Matti Narkia

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:47:51 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It is not a question of whether the Father is good enough for you but whether you are good enough
for the Father. I am not good enough for the Father. That's why I need Jesus and am thankful to
Him for saving me.

Message seems pretty clear to me: Man is not good enough to speak directly to God and therefore
needs Jesus.

From your skewed, basis less point of view, I am sure that is exactly what you read and I am also
sure that is not at all what Chung meant.

Quoted message said:

Look, let me make it clear for the very last time. I respect Dr. Chung's right to believe what he
believes. But if Dr. Chung is arguing that I (or anybody else) am "not good enough" to pray
directly to God, then in my humble opinion he is WAY WAY over the line.

See above.

Quoted message said:

Moreover I think that God listens to each of us with equal intensity and with equal love - no
matter who we are.

From what foundational theology do you arrive at this conclusion?

Quoted message said:

Now I am trying to make a graceful exit from this newsgroup. I wish no body here any ill will. But
the condescending attitude of some (like Dr. Chung, who has the unmitigated gall to publicly post
that he pities me) is enough to make me vomit.

Nice, graceful exit.

lol

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031122.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 20:40:27 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

I [Stephen Nagler] can pray directly to God and be effectively heard - heard as well as any
Christian - without my needing Jesus,

Zechariah 7:11-13 [11] "But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and
stopped up their ears. [12] They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law
or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the
LORD Almighty was very angry. [13] "`When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I
would not listen,' says the LORD Almighty."

Many are saying "The promises of God are not true. God does not hear my prayers." Has God ever
promised to hear your prayers? God very plainly describes the class whose prayers He hears. Do
you belong to that class? Are you listening to His words? If not, He has distinctly said He will
not listen to your prayers, and in not listening to you, He is simply keeping His word.

You can't have it the way you want it, Stephen, until you quit trying to make the rules and adhere
to the ones that have been written for centuries over.

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031122.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

(John9212112) said:

Ah, Steven, I don't believe that Dr. Chung has said any such thing, i.e., that one can speak to
God only through Jesus Christ. I suspect that most Christians would subscribe to the notion that
anyone can petition God directly in prayer. Most Christians would also subscribe to the notion
that invoking the name of Jesus in the prayer makes the prayer "more powerful". Many Christians
end their prayers by saying something like, "I ask these thing in the name of Jesus, Amen."
Surely you've heard this before.

....................

I posted:

Quoted message said:

If it [praying directly to God] was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me!

Dr. Chung responded:

Quoted message said:

It is not a question of whether the Father is good enough for you but whether you are good enough
for the Father. I am not good enough for the Father. That's why I need Jesus and am thankful to
Him for saving me.

Message seems pretty clear to me: Man is not good enough to speak directly to God and therefore
needs Jesus.

The subject was about salvation and not prayer [it is your parenthetical].

There is not one among us who is without sin (just thinking sinful thoughts is sin) and therefore
could hope to be judged "innocent" by God.

Quoted message said:

Look, let me make it clear for the very last time. I respect Dr. Chung's right to believe what he
believes. But if Dr. Chung is arguing that I (or anybody else) am "not good enough" to pray
directly to God, then in my humble opinion he is WAY WAY over the line.

Since Jesus' death and resurrection, only someone who is truly sinless will not need Christ to enter
God's eternal and perfect kingdom after his/her death. The rest of us will need the blood of the
Lamb (Christ) to wash away our sins so that we may set foot into His "heaven" when we die.

Prayer is not the same as salvation, neighbor.

Quoted message said:

You said above that you suspect that "most Christians would subscribe to the notion that anyone
can petition God directly in prayer." I happen to believe you, but that is in direct conflict with
the position espoused by Dr. Chung.

It is not.

Quoted message said:

I'd suggest that Dr. Chung take it up with God, but apparently he cannot do that.

Why not? Do it all the time, multiple times a day.

Quoted message said:

He's "not good enough."

You are confusing the concept of salvation with the concept of prayer.

It seems that you believe that if God hears your petition (prayer) that He will automatically grant
your request (salvation). Why else would you confuse the two concepts?

Quoted message said:

Interesting that I think he is!

Prayer is not a product of worthiness but one of free will.

Quoted message said:

I think that *anyone* is "good enough" to speak with God.

Correction, *anyone* has the "free will" to pray to God. Whether God is "hearing" your petition is
up to God.

Quoted message said:

Moreover I think that God listens to each of us with equal intensity and with equal love - no
matter who we are.

God only knows.

Quoted message said:

Now I am trying to make a graceful exit from this newsgroup. I wish no body here any ill will. But
the condescending attitude of some (like Dr. Chung, who has the unmitigated gall to publicly post
that he pities me) is enough to make me vomit.

Truth has that effect on the untruthful.

You remain in my prayers, neighbor.

(Fwiw, I am praying to God the Father in His Son's name)

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

Mu_nrise Through The Shadow said:

Stephen Nagler said:

I [Stephen Nagler] can pray directly to God and be effectively heard - heard as well as any
Christian - without my needing Jesus,

Zechariah 7:11-13 [11] "But they refused to pay attention; stubbornly they turned their backs and
stopped up their ears. [12] They made their hearts as hard as flint and would not listen to the law
or to the words that the LORD Almighty had sent by his Spirit through the earlier prophets. So the
LORD Almighty was very angry. [13] "`When I called, they did not listen; so when they called, I
would not listen,' says the LORD Almighty."

................

John, I rest my case.

All I asked is that the fanatics here recognize that my beliefs are just as legitimate as theirs.
And that God will hear me in my fervent prayers as clearly as He will hear them in theirs. But then
again, if they would recognize that, they wouldn't be fanatics, now would they?

No, instead they pull some lines out of the Bible *totally out of context* in a futile attempt to
justify their fanaticism. God was mad at those who turned their backs on Him. I haven't turned my
back on Him. Never have. Never will. I honor Him. I just do not honor Him in a manner that the
fanatics here specifically prescribe. Well there's nothing in the Five Books of Moses, The Prophets,
or the Holy Writings that dictate *how* to honor God. All that is expected is that one who honors
God be sincere.

I say again that I bear nobody here any ill-will. I say again that I respect the right of anybody
here to believe what he or she wishes to believe. But I refuse to participate in a cardiology forum
that is overrun by religious fanatics who publicly express pity for me and are publicly intolerant
of my beliefs, which while very sincere happen to differ from theirs. I wonder how many other
potential participants here have been similarly turned off.

Religion is between man and God - not between man and man.

My best to you all.

smn

(John9212112) said:

Sure, there have been plenty of wars in the NAME of Christianity

Religious fanatics are not really religious. This is very obvious from just this newsgroup. The
religious fanatics here are the least charitable, helpful, and understanding of the posters. Not
REAL Christians at all. Matt

Quoted message said:

Unfortunately, there are many who believe just that, not just Dr. Chung. Fanatical religious belief
has created more sorrow and pain in this world than anything else.

Unfortunately true. We just have a microcosm here. Matt

Matti Narkia <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Mon, 29 Dec 2003 19:47:51 GMT in article <[email hidden]> Stephen

Nagler said:

Now I am trying to make a graceful exit from this newsgroup.

I wish you'd stay. It would be nice to have one sane doctor in this ng. Or two when Dr. Patrick
Blanchard is also posting.

Ouch. Poor Matti... so sad... losing another playmate.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I wish no body here any ill will. But the condescending attitude of some (like Dr. Chung, who has
the unmitigated gall to publicly post that he pities me) is enough to make me vomit.

You could always killfile Chung, his sock puppets and alter egos.

Like you have done, eh, Matti?

You remain in my prayers, neighbor.

Humbly,

Andrew

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-certified Cardiologist
heartmdphd.comheartmdphd.comOpen ↗

Chung, I haven't heard so much double-talk since I saw Norm Crosby perform at a night club a few
years ago.

As with Mu, I say to you that your insensitivity and intolerance are the antithesis of all that is
Christian.

And as with Mu, be you two people or one, I believe we are done now.

smn

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:04:33 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

All I asked is that the fanatics here recognize that my beliefs are just as legitimate as theirs.

You have to be kidding. No way, by definition. <gggg>

Quoted message said:

And that God will hear me in my fervent prayers as clearly as He will hear them in theirs.

He will.

Quoted message said:

But then again, if they would recognize that, they wouldn't be fanatics, now would they?

No. <ggg>

Quoted message said:

No, instead they pull some lines out of the Bible *totally out of context* in a futile attempt to
justify their fanaticism.

Standard Chung tactic. Ho hum. He is very predictable.

Quoted message said:

I say again that I bear nobody here any ill-will.

Nor do I. Even Chung, although his fanaticism prevents him from seeing that.. Just ask him. <g>

Quoted message said:

I say again that I respect the right of anybody here to believe what he or she wishes to believe.

Of course, as do most of us.

Quoted message said:

I wonder how many other potential participants here have been similarly turned off.

Lots. Just check the archives. <g> "Let me count the ways."

Quoted message said:

My best to you all.

Thanks, and to you as well.

New definition: Hell is being perpetually surrounded with the likes of Chung. <ggg> Matt

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:04:33 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John, I rest my case.

All I asked is that the fanatics here recognize that my beliefs are just as legitimate as theirs.

I am sure you do and I am here to tell you once again that your beliefs, whatever theological
foundations you base them on (and I have no idea what those are since you are neither a Jew
professing Judaism or a theist professing theism) are bound to nothing if they do not embrace Christ
as the Son Of God.

Quoted message said:

And that God will hear me in my fervent prayers as clearly as He will hear them in theirs. But
then again, if they would recognize that, they wouldn't be fanatics, now would they?

He will not hear you fervency as I pointed out from the Torah and the OT.

Quoted message said:

No, instead they pull some lines out of the Bible *totally out of context* in a futile attempt to
justify their fanaticism. God was mad at those who turned their backs on Him. I haven't turned my
back on Him.

By denying the Jesus Christ was the Messiah, you have done exactly that.

Quoted message said:

I honor Him. I just do not honor Him in a manner that the fanatics here specifically prescribe.

Then honor Him in the way HE specifically prescribed.

Quoted message said:

Well there's nothing in the Five Books of Moses, The Prophets, or the Holy Writings that dictate
*how* to honor God.

You need a serious re-read, Stephen but eyes that refuse to open see nothing.

Quoted message said:

All that is expected is that one who honors God be sincere.

Complete [censored], even your Jewish Torah condemns such nonsensical abstractions.

Quoted message said:

I say again that I bear nobody here any ill-will. I say again that I respect the right of anybody
here to believe what he or she wishes to believe.

Yes, and so did Judas.

Quoted message said:

But I refuse to participate in a cardiology forum that is overrun by religious fanatics who
publicly express pity for me and are publicly intolerant of my beliefs, which while very sincere
happen to differ from theirs.

I apologize. This must ne a troll imitating your participation here.

Quoted message said:

I wonder how many other potential participants here have been similarly turned off.

I wonder how many have been drawn to Christ because of it.

Quoted message said:

Religion is between man and God - not between man and man.

Really? then all the churches and all the synagogues, where people meet man to man, are a
waste of time.

I sincerely hope that you find your way.

antwrp.gsfc.nasa.govap031122.htmlOpen ↗ Lift well, Eat less, Walk fast, Live long.

On Mon, 29 Dec 2003 22:04:33 GMT, Stephen Nagler <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

All I asked is that the fanatics here recognize that my beliefs are just as legitimate as theirs.

You're just feeding the troll. It is not possible to reason with a fanatic, no matter how well
founded you are. It is merely an excuse for more endless fanatical preaching. Matt