POS Bent

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

Seems like most people who want to get a new bike for themselves or their kids will opt for a
cheap POS bike from x-mart, rather than get something decent from the LBS. To someone who is not a
"gung-ho bicycle nut" $400.00 for *any* bike is ridiculously out of line, let alone paying at
least that much for a strange-looking entry-level bent.

Consequently, I've been thinking (I know-bad move) that what this country needs is a cheap POS
bent that they sell thru x-mart. Get them out in the public. It might give them something to trade
up from. "Familiarity breeds attempt" 😉

Actually, what I've been thinking is that some of the fine (read NOT POS) entry level bents like the
CycleGenius or EZ-1 should be marketed through the major Sporting Goods Shops. There you will find
bikes priced from $150-$400. A CG or EZ... would fit into that price range. For get the POS $100-
$150 priced bikes. They are afterall a POS. A $200 bent is still going to be a POS.

What makes a POS bike a POS is the not the frame although that can enter into the picture. It is the
components put on the frame. POS components will fail are not stay adjusted and this will deter many
from continuing with the enjoyment(?) of a POS bike.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Cletus Lee said:

Actually, what I've been thinking is that some of the fine (read NOT POS) entry level bents like
the CycleGenius or EZ-1 should be marketed through the major Sporting Goods Shops. There you will
find bikes priced from $150-$400. A CG or EZ... would fit into that price range.

A local sporting goods shop sold $300,000 worth of 'bents in the first 10 months of 2003. A few TEs
and Lightnings, but mostly various flavors of EZ. They have only been selling 'bents since mid-2002.
Their clientele is probably a bit more mature/well off than SportMart etc. $500-$700 is an impulse
buy to many of them.

"A rising tide lifts all boats."

The local "serious" 'bent shop owner does not see this as competion. Many of the EZ buyers would be
unlikely to wander into a "bike only" shop. He'll catch a lot of the ones who get hooked and decide
to upgrade.

"Mark Stonich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Cletus Lee said:

Actually, what I've been thinking is that some of the fine (read NOT

POS) entry level bents

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

like the CycleGenius or EZ-1 should be marketed through the major

Sporting Goods Shops. There

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you will find bikes priced from $150-$400. A CG or EZ... would fit into

that price range.

Quoted message said:

A local sporting goods shop sold $300,000 worth of 'bents in the first 10 months of 2003. A few
TEs and Lightnings, but mostly various flavors of EZ. They have only been selling 'bents since mid-
2002. Their clientele is probably a bit more mature/well off than SportMart etc. $500-$700 is an
impulse buy to many of them.

"A rising tide lifts all boats."

The local "serious" 'bent shop owner does not see this as competion. Many of the EZ buyers would
be unlikely to wander into a "bike only" shop. He'll catch a lot of the ones who get hooked and
decide to upgrade.

I KNEW IT!!!

Mark, this is *exactly* what I imagined could/would happen as the recumbent market caught fire in
the US (you *are* in the US, right?) I'm going to have to assume that you're located in an affluent
area, probably with an elderly population. Am I close?

Anyway, this doesn't surprise me in the least, and your "rising tide" aphorism is precisely the
reason I gave for why this could happen. There needs/needed to be some kind of critical threshold
of social acceptability reached, after which recumbents would be viewed by many as "just another
kind of bike." That is what was lacking, and still is in many/most areas. But thanks to Sun/EZ
bikes and high-volume sales, there is much more recumbent exposure in general, and thus more
acceptance. That will also make it much easier for tire-kickers to consider purchase, and that's
when you turn the corner.

I saw this happen in our local cycling club this season (2003). Toward the end of the season, two
prominent club members - former roadies - showed up on a Vision R-40 and Haluszak Horizon,
respectively. I was riding my Soulcraft Royale; but everybody already knows about my RANS Rocket.
But the buzz surrounding the Haluszak was palpable. I could see several people thinking "hey, this
thing costs less than my road bike, and Bob says he's much more comfortable on it..." This is how
it starts.

Recumbents will sell themselves, once they become acceptable within the group. It's all about peer
acceptance (for most folks, that is ;-)

This makes me happy, even though it probably means that fewer hot college girls will be shouting
"Hey, cool bike!" to me next season ;-)

Rocketman

In article <[email hidden]>, Cletus Lee

Quoted message said:

Actually, what I've been thinking is that some of the fine (read NOT POS) entry level bents like
the CycleGenius or EZ-1 should be marketed through the major Sporting Goods Shops.

The basic problem with that is lack of supply. It's unlikely that any factory, even those in Taiwan,
making recumbents could put out the kind of volume necessary to stock a national retailer. It would
take a *lot* of bikes to meet the demand of a Sports Authority, [censored]'s, Target or Wal-Mart...forget
about meeting the demand of more than one of those chains simultaneously. It's definitely impossible
for any US operation. These are small-scale shops.

What would have to happen is for some manufacturing capacity to be taken away from existing bikes.
Once bents are seen as cool and marketable to the mainstream, that could very well happen.

Sadly, I have a feeling that the first mass-market "bent" we'll see will be something like the Giant
Revive (ick).

Actually, come to think of it, someone DID try to market a recumbent through a national retailer.
The store was Sears, and the bike was the ReBike. And we all know what a success *that* was.

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden] says...

Quoted message said:

The basic problem with that is lack of supply. It's unlikely that any factory, even those in
Taiwan, making recumbents could put out the kind of volume necessary to stock a national retailer.

Just where do you think those high volume low price POS bikes available in *Mart come from? It is
quite possible that the Tiawan 'bent frame makers are the same frame makers for the POS DFs BTW, it
is not so much the frame that make these *Mart bikes a POS but the [censored] put on the frame that makes
a frame into a bike.

Bent Mfgs like CG are retailing decent $350 bikes with low-end components. If these were sold in
quantity. I am sure the price would be closer to $250. The problem is that to get the volume, you
need the financial commitment and distribution of a large national store like a Sports Authority or
Oshmans or WalMart.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

In support of POS components. I rode for years with an entry level plus 1 bike in happy ignorance.
Many thousands of miles. While you don;t shift as cleanly, etc. You get down the road just fine.

Many bicyclists express an opinion, overtly or implicitly, that you can't ride without at least
"nearly the best". That attitude couldn't be further from the truth. Most of China ride on OLD POS
bikes. I've seen the pictures!! They are never even late for work. Conspicuous consumption is an
insidious thing. <G>

Miles of Smiles

Tom "Cletus Lee" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

[email hidden]

Quoted message said:

says...

Quoted message said:

The basic problem with that is lack of supply. It's unlikely that any factory, even those in
Taiwan, making recumbents could put out the kind of volume necessary to stock a national
retailer.

Just where do you think those high volume low price POS bikes available in

*Mart come from? It

Quoted message said:

is quite possible that the Tiawan 'bent frame makers are the same frame

makers for the POS DFs

Quoted message said:

BTW, it is not so much the frame that make these *Mart bikes a POS but the

[censored] put on the

Quoted message said:

frame that makes a frame into a bike.

Bent Mfgs like CG are retailing decent $350 bikes with low-end components.

If these were sold

Quoted message said:

in quantity. I am sure the price would be closer to $250. The problem is

that to get the

Quoted message said:

volume, you need the financial commitment and distribution of a large

national store like a

Quoted message said:

Sports Authority or Oshmans or WalMart.

--

Cletus D. Lee Bacchetta Giro Lightning Voyager clee.orgclee.orgOpen ↗
- Bellaire, TX USA -

Rocketman said:

Mark, this is *exactly* what I imagined could/would happen as the recumbent market caught fire in
the US (you *are* in the US, right?) I'm going to have to assume that you're located in an
affluent area, probably with an elderly population. Am I close?

I'm in Minneapolis. While our economy is strong, a large % of our retirees move south. However,
people here tend to be physically active, and remain so well into their retirements.

From what I know about sales at various shops, and the number of homebuilt bikes locally it's
inconcievable to me that there could be less than 4,000 recumbents in the Metro area,
probably closer to 5,000. With this many, anyone with any interest in bikes probably knows
someone with a 'bent.

We had a 'bent ride last summer, around Minneapolis on the trail system. 162 riders showed up. We
passed over a dozen going th eother way.

Quoted message said:

I saw this happen in our local cycling club this season (2003).

Nearly every local non-racing club has a few 'benters.

Quoted message said:

This makes me happy, even though it probably means that fewer hot college girls will be shouting
"Hey, cool bike!" to me next season ;-) Rocketman

There may also be a safety disadvantage. 10 years ago, if you were in a car drivers field of vision,
you were the center of his attention. Here at least, that not the case anymore.

Andrew Douglas said:

What would have to happen is for some manufacturing capacity to be taken away from existing bikes.
Once bents are seen as cool and marketable to the mainstream, that could very well happen.

Sadly, I have a feeling that the first mass-market "bent" we'll see will be something like the
Giant Revive (ick).

Actually, Andrew, bikes that are 'real' recumbents likely will never catch fire in the marketplace,
IMHO, because of tricky (read, potentially dangerous to neophyte riders) handling and the, as yet,
sparsely researched but clearly significant health issues attendant to riding up long hills with
your head below your feet.

So a bike like the Giant Revive offers an alternative to the DF config bikes that often end up
gathering dust in the garage after a while... even though they may be far more sophisticated
(and costly!).

Again, just my opinion, but any bike that gets me and my wife back out on the trail enjoying this
healthy hobby again would seem to merit a better rating than "ick", wouldn't you agree? 🙂

Best regards.

JD

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Sadly, I have a feeling that the first mass-market "bent" we'll see will be something like the
Giant Revive (ick).

Actually, Andrew, bikes that are 'real' recumbents likely will never catch

fire

Quoted message said:

in the marketplace, IMHO, because of tricky (read, potentially dangerous

to

Quoted message said:

neophyte riders) handling and the, as yet, sparsely researched but clearly significant health
issues attendant to riding up long hills with your head

below

Quoted message said:

your feet.

JD

I think my CCM Evox 120 is a POS recumbent. But Galyan's experience hasn't been too good with the
smaller sizes, evidently. They got rid of the two smaller ones but are still trying to sell the
"adult" sized Evox 140. I think it's slightly under $400.

Pat in TX

Andrew...Sears selling the ReBike was pretty good for Sears, but ReBike had been bought by HUFFY and
HUFFY had gone on an ill timed spending spree that almost bankrupted them and to save their DF line
from their creditors...they killed off the ReBike. There was nothing wrong with the ReBike and IMHO
had ReBike continued on...by now it would have evolved into a pretty good mid-range bent.

Joshua
*****
"Andrew Douglas" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:121220030904353846%aNO-
[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Actually, come to think of it, someone DID try to market a recumbent

through a national retailer. The store was Sears, and the bike was the ReBike. And we all know
what a success *that* was.

Rocketman said:

Mark, this is *exactly* what I imagined could/would happen as the recumbent market caught fire in
the US (you *are* in the US, right?) I'm going to have to assume that you're located in an
affluent area, probably with an elderly population. Am I close?

Mark Stonich and his HPV compatriots apparently live in the stone age. 😉
<http://mnhpva.org/about/far_side.jpg>.

Quoted message said:

I saw this happen in our local cycling club this season (2003). Toward the end of the season, two
prominent club members - former roadies - showed up on a Vision R-40 and Haluszak Horizon,
respectively. I was riding my Soulcraft Royale; but everybody already knows about my RANS Rocket.
But the buzz surrounding the Haluszak was palpable. I could see several people thinking "hey, this
thing costs less than my road bike, and Bob says he's much more comfortable on it..." This is how
it starts....

IIRC, there was even a co-ride leader in this club a couple of years ago who rode either a RANS
Rocket or a Wave to Tailwind conversion with a green homemade bodysock.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Cletus Lee said:

... Just where do you think those high volume low price POS bikes available in *Mart come from? It
is quite possible that the Tiawan 'bent frame makers are the same frame makers for the POS DFs...

Due to the decent wages and living conditions in Taiwan, most of the bikes now made there are of
"bike shop" quality. Production of the mass merchandiser sold bikes has moved to Mainland China for
the most part. The working conditions there are less than ideal. [1]

[1]<http://www.nlcnet.org/campaigns/archive/chinareport/huffybikesdoc.shtml>.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Tom Blum said:

In support of POS components. I rode for years with an entry level plus 1 bike in happy ignorance.
Many thousands of miles. While you don;t shift as cleanly, etc. You get down the road just fine.

Many bicyclists express an opinion, overtly or implicitly, that you can't ride without at least
"nearly the best". That attitude couldn't be further from the truth. Most of China ride on OLD POS
bikes. I've seen the pictures!! They are never even late for work...

One of the factors making the "Flying Pigeon" reliable is its simplicity. There is little to go
wrong on a single-speed bike with a coaster brake. It is when someone attempts to make a FS MTB for
the price of a simple single speed cruiser that a "POS" bike results.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

In article <[email hidden]>, Cletus Lee

Quoted message said:

Just where do you think those high volume low price POS bikes available in *Mart come from?

Read the post more closely. I said any factory *making recumbents.* I also said that you'd need to
take existing DF manufactuing capacity (which is where those POS bikes are coming from) away from
making DFs and put it into recumbents to meet demand.

The overall capacity is obviously there, it would simply need to be redistributed. Which ain't gonna
happen until the *Mart buyers decide that people in East Podunk are going to buy Junior a recumbent
for Christmas.

In article <[email hidden]>, JD Ami

Quoted message said:

Actually, Andrew, bikes that are 'real' recumbents likely will never catch fire in the
marketplace, IMHO, because of tricky (read, potentially dangerous to neophyte riders) handling

I don't really buy that. I've never met a sould who couldn't ride a Bike E the very first time
they tried.

Some bents are indeed not for newbies, but many, many of them are very user-friendly.

Quoted message said:

and the, as yet, sparsely researched but clearly significant health issues attendant to riding up
long hills with your head below your feet.

I've never seen a commercial bent with a BB that high. I've ridden very high BB bikes, and your feet
do not come up above your head, even on climbs...it just seems that way. Which bike are you
referring to?

Also, there's no way a high-BB bike will show up in the *Marts. They're cool and fast, but scary for
beginners.

Andrew Douglas said:

Also, there's no way a high-BB bike will show up in the *Marts. They're cool and fast, but scary
for beginners.

On the German hpv-list someone reported that his wife actually preferred a lowracer to a higher
SWB from the beginning. She just felt safer and liked the handling of the bike better. We are
talking about a Kreuzotter, the predecessor of the famous Razz Fazz, with a BB about 25cm (10"😉
above the seat.

I know of a rider on the German Liegeradforum who started this year on a semi-low, his wife joined
in soon afterwards. Her first recumbent: Optima Baron. Similar with another couple. He: ZOX20 low -
She: Challenge Taifun.

Maybe just exceptions, but I'm sure part of the scaring is psychological and goes away with praxis.
However, I also don't see a lowracer at Walmart or even at the average LBS in the near future, the
first entry level bikes will most probably be far more moderate.

Regards,
Kurt

Andrew Douglas said:

In article said:

... and the, as yet, sparsely researched but clearly significant health issues attendant to
riding up long hills with your head below your feet.

I've never seen a commercial bent with a BB that high. I've ridden very high BB bikes, and your
feet do not come up above your head, even on climbs...it just seems that way. Which bike are you
referring to?

The Dolce Vita [1] is the only commercial recumbent with a BB that high that I am aware of. Even on
the Wishbone RT [2] I used to own, my feet were below my head on any grades I encountered.

[1] <http://www.dolcevita-bike.it/>.
[2] <http://www.liegeradinfo.de/wisbone2.jpg>.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Kurt Fischer said:

Andrew Douglas said:

Also, there's no way a high-BB bike will show up in the *Marts. They're cool and fast, but scary
for beginners.

On the German hpv-list someone reported that his wife actually preferred a lowracer to a higher
SWB from the beginning. She just felt safer and liked the handling of the bike better. We are
talking about a Kreuzotter, the predecessor of the famous Razz Fazz, with a BB about 25cm (10"😉
above the seat.

I know of a rider on the German Liegeradforum who started this year on a semi-low, his wife joined
in soon afterwards. Her first recumbent: Optima Baron. Similar with another couple. He: ZOX20 low
- She: Challenge Taifun.

Maybe just exceptions, but I'm sure part of the scaring is psychological and goes away with
praxis. However, I also don't see a lowracer at Walmart or even at the average LBS in the near
future, the first entry level bikes will most probably be far more moderate.

Have I ever mentioned that the Earth Cycles Sunset is a very easy lowracer to ride? 😉 The people
who have tried mine have for the most part had no trouble riding it, including some who have tried
and failed to ride other lowracers.

Tom Sherman - Planet Earth

Andrew Douglas <[email hidden]> wrote:
: In article <[email hidden]>, JD Ami <[email hidden]> wrote:

:> Actually, Andrew, bikes that are 'real' recumbents likely will never catch fire in the
:> marketplace, IMHO, because of tricky (read, potentially dangerous to neophyte riders) handling

: I don't really buy that. I've never met a sould who couldn't ride a Bike E the very first time
: they tried.

Of course, BikeEs, Tour Easys and the like are not "real recumbents" to someone like us European
elite sports racer bent riders 😉

: Some bents are indeed not for newbies, but many, many of them are very user-friendly.

People can learn to ride moderate bents like Vision R40 (entry level, BB near the level of seat
bottom) in a day. It took them more than that to learn how to ride uprights. Where's the catch?

It could be a sales and marketing problem, but it doesn't mean these bikes wouldn't be suitable
for newbies.

Were you thinking of things like starting and stopping in everyday traffic?

--
Risto Varanka | helsinki.fi~rvarankaOpen ↗ [email hidden]