definitely not cyclists

Zebee Johnstone said:

http://www.copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/

all those women riding about, no lycra, daggy bikes.

Not cyclists, no way!

Never happen in Oz. Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for
transport.

Just down to the shop? In normal shoes and everything? Nah, real cyclists
only ride in bunches, on Sundays.

Not good publicity in Perth ATM, a ped got hit a week or so ago on the South
Perth foreshore shared path, subsequently died.

Theo

Zebee Johnstone said:

http://www.copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/

all those women riding about, no lycra, daggy bikes.

Not cyclists, no way!

Never happen in Oz. Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for
transport.

Nor these ones either:
http://www.boroondarabug.org/other_resources/FromAmsterdamWithLerv.pdf

All those bikes and not a real cyclist amongst them......hey, that means
they must all be *unreal cyclists*, now that's a lot better!

--
Cheers
Peter

~~~ ~ _@
~~ ~ _- \,
~~ (*)/ (*)

PeteSig said:

Quoted message said:

Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for transport.

All those bikes and not a real cyclist amongst them...

FYI, I'm inching closer [1] toward importing and selling cargo bikes
in the style of the Dutch "bakfiets" (as featured in PeteSig's
postcard from Amsterdam).

http://www.townbikes.com

Very daggy bicycles for unreal cyclists to use just for transport.

Unashamedly built somewhere other than the Netherlands, so I can sell
them for a whole lot less than a genuine Dutch Bakfiets (eg
http://shop.cheekytransport.com.au/store/viewItem.shop?idProduct=32).

Also considering the option of old-school upright "city-bikes"...
single-speed with coaster brake, or hub-geared with drums. Chain
guards, mud guards, kick stands. Not compatible with lycra. Again,
priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport.

Hopefully I'll be able to finalise prices and start taking orders
within a couple of weeks, for the cargo bikes at least.

tim

[1] at glacial pace

Zebee Johnstone said:

http://www.copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/

all those women riding about, no lycra, daggy bikes.

Not cyclists, no way!

Never happen in Oz. Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for
transport.

Zebee

I wheeled my Giant Cypress City (with rack, panniers, lights, kick-stand
etc etc) commuter bike out the door of work today into a sea of lycra.
The local cycling club meet and leave from the lights near work.

I was in a work T-Shirt and black jeans (it was cold today... normally
that'd be shorts).

Many many 'looks' (presumably because I didn't fit the lycra
demographic) LOL

G-S

hi

err ... re your site ... you've got some dud html in there mate

and mailto: is not really "robot safe", try using this instead

<script type="text/javascript">document.write('<a href="mailto:' +
String.
fromCharCode(101,110,113,117,105,114,105,101,115,64,116,111,119,110,98,105,107,
101,115,46,99,111,109) + '">enquiries </a>'😉;</script>

of course that'll need scripts enabled on the client end

In article
<[email hidden]>, tim

Quoted message said:

PeteSig said:

Quoted message said:

Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for transport.

All those bikes and not a real cyclist amongst them...

FYI, I'm inching closer [1] toward importing and selling cargo bikes
in the style of the Dutch "bakfiets" (as featured in PeteSig's
postcard from Amsterdam).

http://www.townbikes.com

Very daggy bicycles for unreal cyclists to use just for transport.

Unashamedly built somewhere other than the Netherlands, so I can sell
them for a whole lot less than a genuine Dutch Bakfiets (eg
http://shop.cheekytransport.com.au/store/viewItem.shop?idProduct=32).

Also considering the option of old-school upright "city-bikes"...
single-speed with coaster brake, or hub-geared with drums. Chain
guards, mud guards, kick stands. Not compatible with lycra. Again,
priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport.

Hopefully I'll be able to finalise prices and start taking orders
within a couple of weeks, for the cargo bikes at least.

tim

[1] at glacial pace

See Ya
(when bandwidth gets better ;-)

Chris Eastwood
Photographer, Programmer
Motorcyclist and dingbat

please remove undies for reply

(Obakesan) said:

hi

err ... re your site ... you've got some dud html in there mate

err... thanks for your critique of my "5 minutes with a random
automatic html generator and GIMP placeholder page".

I guess those <br /> tags are a bit unauthodox, but they've rendered
okay the handful of times I've looked at the page.

Tell you what, I'll fix them.

If it makes you happier for knowing, I'll be using a CMS when I get my
sh!t together and set one up.

Quoted message said:

and mailto: is not really "robot safe", try using this instead

Meh. It's a disposable address, and my t-bird is pretty good at
picking the v1/\g3ra spam from real mail on the other dozen or so
addresses it sorts through.

Thanks for your concern, though. I'll let you know when I have some
bikes to sell.

tim

In article <[email hidden]>,

tim said:

(Obakesan) said:

hi

err ... re your site ... you've got some dud html in there mate

err... thanks for your critique of my "5 minutes with a random
automatic html generator and GIMP placeholder page".

I guess those <br /> tags are a bit unauthodox, but they've rendered
okay the handful of times I've looked at the page.

glad to see that constructive advice is treated with sarcasm

See Ya
(when bandwidth gets better ;-)

Chris Eastwood
Photographer, Programmer
Motorcyclist and dingbat

please remove undies for reply

In article <[email hidden]>, [email hidden]

(Obakesan) said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

tim said:

(Obakesan) said:

hi

err ... re your site ... you've got some dud html in there mate

err... thanks for your critique of my "5 minutes with a random
automatic html generator and GIMP placeholder page".

I guess those <br /> tags are a bit unauthodox, but they've rendered
okay the handful of times I've looked at the page.

just fyi

<a href="[email hidden]>enquiries</a>

should have the " closed ... making it

<a href="[email hidden]">enquiries</a>

See Ya
(when bandwidth gets better ;-)

Chris Eastwood
Photographer, Programmer
Motorcyclist and dingbat

please remove undies for reply

Zebee Johnstone said:

http://www.copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.com/

all those women riding about, no lycra, daggy bikes.

Not cyclists, no way!

Never happen in Oz. Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for
transport.

Note the lack of hills, the traffic congestion, the lack of parking, that
Copenhagen is a couple of square kilometres in area and the fact that the
riders are wearing overcoats and ugg boots.

In Sydney the fact that corporate workers are expected to where black
woollen suits in 40C heat does make it more difficult but you do see people
riding around inner city areas in street clothes. Mountain bikes are so
much cheaper and popular here so they ride those.

dewatf.

tim said:

Also considering the option of old-school upright "city-bikes"...
single-speed with coaster brake, or hub-geared with drums. Chain
guards, mud guards, kick stands. Not compatible with lycra. Again,
priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport.

As regards this point, you may have missed the boat:

http://www.theindianbicycleshop.com/index.html

quote='Theo Bekkers'Zebee Johnstone said:

copenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.comcopenhagengirlsonbikes.blogspot.comOpen ↗

all those women riding about, no lycra, daggy bikes.

Not cyclists, no way!

Never happen in Oz. Can't have people riding daggy bicycles just for
transport.

Just down to the shop? In normal shoes and everything? Nah, real cyclists
only ride in bunches, on Sundays.

Not good publicity in Perth ATM, a ped got hit a week or so ago on the South
Perth foreshore shared path, subsequently died.

Theo[/QUOTE]

Wasn't it at the bell tower on the city side? A tourist who was standing on the bike path with a group of tourists who then scattered as the cyclist tried to go around them?

Anyway, it has generated the usual calls in the letters to the editor for registration of cyclists so they can be identified (although in this case I believe the cyclist did not attempt to flee or hide his identity)

SteveA

SteveA said:

Theo Bekkers Wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Not good publicity in Perth ATM, a ped got hit a week or so ago on
the South
Perth foreshore shared path, subsequently died.

Quoted message said:

Wasn't it at the bell tower on the city side? A tourist who was
standing on the bike path with a group of tourists who then scattered
as the cyclist tried to go around them?

Anyway, it has generated the usual calls in the letters to the editor
for registration of cyclists so they can be identified (although in
this case I believe the cyclist did not attempt to flee or hide his
identity)

Sorry, you're right. Apparently the tourists scattered at the sight of a mad
cyclist bearing down on them and one jumped the wrong way.

Theo

Quoted message said:

tim said:

Also considering the option of old-school upright "city-bikes"...
single-speed with coaster brake, or hub-geared with drums. Chain
guards, mud guards, kick stands. Not compatible with lycra. Again,
priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport.

As regards this point, you may have missed the boat:

http://www.theindianbicycleshop.com/index.html

Read this bit again:
"priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport"

$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!

tim

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)

tim said:

Read this bit again:
"priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport"

$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!

It is a bit rough.

Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

Zebee

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)

tim said:

Read this bit again:
"priced to suit their target usage, as basic local transport"

$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!

It is a bit rough.

Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

Zebee

The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that.

They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my
first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!).

I never managed to ride up the hill to home until I got my first 10
speed. [1]

G-S

[1] I avoid that particular hill and ride the long way around it these
days despite gears 🙂

G-S said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)

tim said:

$600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!

Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

That's my goal.

I've dispaired at the cheap bike options available in Australia for
years. BTH's good experiences with his BigW bike are refreshing, but
the fact remains - ultra-cheap bikes are very low quality and
generally unsuitable for their target and actual use. It makes no
sense to fit knobby tyres on a bike with the generic "not for off-road
use" sticker, for example.

The first few steps up the price ladder gets you more gimmicks and no
more quality. Dysfunctional suspension. Shockingly bad disc brakes.
Funky "Y-bike" frames that add weight, reduce strength and increase
the number of questionable welds.

Pay a bit more, the gimmicks get better in quality, until you're
paying $500+ for a reasonably good bike. I would still question
whether the style of the bike is appropriate for the target use - as
discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society
is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of
bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain"😉 reflect this. "Hybrid"
bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower
price level... where many of the people who would be best served by
such a bike are shopping.

I want to offer functional bikes for a price comparable to department
store junk bikes. Cheap, comfortable, reliable, and adequate for short
local trips.

I'm not kidding myself that this is a huge market segment. I'm not
about to quitting my day job and build a lavish corporate HQ. In the
first instance I'm only planning on selling a few cargo-bikes
(bakfietsen), which is an even smaller segment. But if I'm setting up
import and distribution channels I may as well look at other options
too. A bit more inventory. A few more pallets in the garage. A bit
more money tied up in stuff I hope I can sell. Gulp.

(This whole debacle started because I want a bakfiets to carry my
little girls, and couldn't find them for sale outside of Europe and
Portland, OR.. Next thing I know I'm setting myself up as an import
tycoon. Eeep.)

Quoted message said:

The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that.

That's why I'm looking to source from China.

People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy
Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy.
If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to
you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the
product.

There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in
China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium
quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic
steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of
them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed
bikes than all other bikes in the world combined.

Quoted message said:

They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my
first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!).

So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is
necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local
transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so
elequently put it)?

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for
sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such
a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and
present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum
are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more
forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3-
speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous
8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none
of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike
market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P

A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good
mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a
business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits
in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to
guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain,
which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike
ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by
non-enthusiast cyclists).

Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes
on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal
brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front
and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that
are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

26" or 700c wheels?

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

tim
http://www.townbikes.com - work in progress behind the scenes :-P

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:39:38 -0800 (PST)

tim said:

discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society
is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of
bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain"😉 reflect this. "Hybrid"
bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower
price level... where many of the people who would be best served by
such a bike are shopping.

I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a
lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men 🙂

(My sister drives a 4WD but it was her husband who insisted on it. She
dislikes it.)

Quoted message said:

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for

definitely. And you don't need that many, but you do need a low one.

Quoted message said:

A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good
mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a

Again yes. Full case is a good idea, helps keep the water off too.

Quoted message said:

are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

I think it is going to be a price point thing and probably an ease of
maintenance thing too. Which is easiest to write a "brake adjustment
for dummies" pamphlet about?

Quoted message said:

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

I think not so much a skirt as for ease of getting on and off. Modern
bikes have high BBs so high seats. If you can get lower BBs so people
can sit on the seat with feet on the ground - yes that's not "most
efficient" but they don't care - then that would be good.

Quoted message said:

26" or 700c wheels?

Whatever people can get decent tough comfortable tyres for. I suspect
26" is going to have more tough 80psi tyres. The whole "sport" thing
again.

Quoted message said:

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

I like dynamo lights.... Simple bolt on lights and bottle dynamos as
an option?

Baskets and racks, for sure. Baskets are such a damn useful thing.

Sprung saddles. I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break
in a Brooks.

Zebee

tim said:

That's why I'm looking to source from China.

Then I will assume you're already familiar with them, but I'll provide
the link anyway http://www.flying-pigeon.cn/eindex.asp

Quoted message said:

People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy
Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy.
If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to
you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the
product.

Damn right!

Quoted message said:

There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in
China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium
quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic
steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of
them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed
bikes than all other bikes in the world combined.

Quoted message said:

They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my
first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!).

So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is
necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local
transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so
elequently put it)?

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears.

Amen! Personally, while my first two bicycles as a kid were single
speeds, I can't imagine ever buying or desiring a single speed again.

Quoted message said:

A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good
mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a
business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits
in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to
guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain,
which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike
ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by
non-enthusiast cyclists).

Yes, yes, yes. Full length mudguards, preferably in plastic as the
aluminium ones tend to rattle (the rivets that hold the mount which
bolts to the brake stay come loose). Something like the Planet Bike,
Freddy Fender or SKS (but preferably a cheap Chinese knock off).

Quoted message said:

Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes
on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal
brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front
and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that
are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

I think coaster brakes are pretty crappy (not so much in terms of
braking performance, just they seem a bit crude), but roller brakes
are very nice indeed. Not sure about drum brakes on bicycles, but
I've not heard anything good about band brakes so perhaps steer clear
of them.

Quoted message said:

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

For reasons of gender I'm not interested in ladies bikes, but how
about a mixtie for something different? Make sure the top tube is
horizontal on those diamond frames so it appeals to the retro grouch
market.

Quoted message said:

26" or 700c wheels?

Can't go wrong with either I reckon. With roller brakes at either
end, you could choose.

Quoted message said:

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Keep up the good work! Sell cheap accessories (mudguards,
chainguards, wheels etc) to folks like me who aren't in the market for
a new bike, but could always use a few extra farkles for their
transportational bicycle.

Zebee Johnstone said:

Tim wrote

Quoted message said:

I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a
lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men 🙂

Quoted message said:

(My sister drives a 4WD but it was her husband who insisted on it. She
dislikes it.)

My wife drives a 4WD (well, a RAV4) and she loves it. I'd sooner a sedan.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue.
Cost permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are
great for

definitely. And you don't need that many, but you do need a low one.

I believe real bikes that are designed that way are around 70-75 inches.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What
about drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this
end of the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors
are always susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

Quoted message said:

I think it is going to be a price point thing and probably an ease of
maintenance thing too. Which is easiest to write a "brake adjustment
for dummies" pamphlet about?

Back-pedal brakes may be way out of style, but they work pretty well for 20
or 30 years with minimal maintenance. A 'town-bike' needs to have longevity
without weekly or monthly maintenance. Utility bikes should be able to
survive with an annual service for 30 years. You see Dutch town-bikes in
Bali still, and they must be 60-70 years old.

Quoted message said:

I think not so much a skirt as for ease of getting on and off. Modern
bikes have high BBs so high seats. If you can get lower BBs so people
can sit on the seat with feet on the ground - yes that's not "most
efficient" but they don't care - then that would be good.

Yup, granny isn't going to swing her leg around the back of the seat, and
when you get on a bike in a skirt, it's better to have the skirt in front of
you rather than behind.

Quoted message said:

I like dynamo lights.... Simple bolt on lights and bottle dynamos as
an option?
Sprung saddles. I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break
in a Brooks.

Yes and yes.

Theo