definitely not cyclists

Quoted message said:

Amen! Personally, while my first two bicycles as a kid were single
speeds, I can't imagine ever buying or desiring a single speed again.

I only rode single-speeds as a kid and rode from Mt Lawley to Perth after I
started work on the same bike I had in High school. When I got back into
cycling at age 40, I rode a fixie for a while from Balga to the City. No big
deal. You just need to have a manageble gear, which means you're limiting
your top speed a little.

Theo

Theo Bekkers said:

Back-pedal brakes may be way out of style, but they work pretty well for 20
or 30 years with minimal maintenance.

The only brakes I've owned other than rim and disk brakes are the back-
pedal brake on my old BMX and the drum drag-brake on my old (1970s
vintage) tandem. From what I have heard about modern roller brakes and
service drum brakes (eg <http://www.sturmey-archer.com/
hubs_fh_SBF.php> and <http://cycle.shimano-eu.com/catalog/cycle/
products/group.jsp?FOLDER%3C%3Efolder_id=2534374302050047&ASSORTMENT%3C
%3East_id=1408474395181667&bmUID=1196130764762>😉 they're just as
durable as they ever were; nobody's getting rich selling replacement
friction elements for these things.

Quoted message said:

A 'town-bike' needs to have longevity
without weekly or monthly maintenance. Utility bikes should be able to
survive with an annual service for 30 years.

I suspect most of the people who'd buy this type of bike won't do
their own maintenance. An annual service will be recommended.

Although, I don't remember the coaster brake of my old BMX getting
much of a service after being ridden hub-deep in salt water...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I doubt your average commuter cyclist wants to break
in a Brooks.

I doubt your average townbikes.com customer wants to pay for a Brooks
either. Not without the Rohloff upgrade, anyway.

Hmmmm, cheap Chinese frames with Rohloff speedhubs and Brooks saddles,
I'm sure there's a market there :-P

I think one of the main comfort benefit of a Brooks saddle is that the
wallet in the rider's right hip pocket is so much thinner, so he can
sit more evenly.

I've seen some leather Brooks knock-off saddles available though...

Maybe that will be stage 3 of the business development. Cargo bikes,
then city bikes, then general commuter bike bits and pieces (including
chain cases and farkles as requested by Lemmi). Maybe not until stage
4 - I'll get the lavish corporate HQ cum lair sorted first. Including
a big tank full of sharks.

tim
making plans while he waits patiently for his approval sample
bakfietsen to be unloaded from the container... tap tap tap...

tim said:

making plans while he waits patiently for his approval sample
bakfietsen to be unloaded from the container... tap tap tap...

I have fond memories of riding home in the 'bak' at about age 6 or 7 with my
dad doing the pedalling.

Theo

"tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G-S said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)
tim <[email hidden]> wrote:
> $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!
Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

That's my goal.

I've dispaired at the cheap bike options available in Australia for
years. BTH's good experiences with his BigW bike are refreshing, but
the fact remains - ultra-cheap bikes are very low quality and
generally unsuitable for their target and actual use. It makes no
sense to fit knobby tyres on a bike with the generic "not for off-road
use" sticker, for example.

The first few steps up the price ladder gets you more gimmicks and no
more quality. Dysfunctional suspension. Shockingly bad disc brakes.
Funky "Y-bike" frames that add weight, reduce strength and increase
the number of questionable welds.

Pay a bit more, the gimmicks get better in quality, until you're
paying $500+ for a reasonably good bike. I would still question
whether the style of the bike is appropriate for the target use - as
discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society
is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of
bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain"😉 reflect this. "Hybrid"
bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower
price level... where many of the people who would be best served by
such a bike are shopping.

I want to offer functional bikes for a price comparable to department
store junk bikes. Cheap, comfortable, reliable, and adequate for short
local trips.

I'm not kidding myself that this is a huge market segment. I'm not
about to quitting my day job and build a lavish corporate HQ. In the
first instance I'm only planning on selling a few cargo-bikes
(bakfietsen), which is an even smaller segment. But if I'm setting up
import and distribution channels I may as well look at other options
too. A bit more inventory. A few more pallets in the garage. A bit
more money tied up in stuff I hope I can sell. Gulp.

(This whole debacle started because I want a bakfiets to carry my
little girls, and couldn't find them for sale outside of Europe and
Portland, OR.. Next thing I know I'm setting myself up as an import
tycoon. Eeep.)

Quoted message said:

The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that.

That's why I'm looking to source from China.

People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy
Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy.
If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to
you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the
product.

There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in
China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium
quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic
steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of
them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed
bikes than all other bikes in the world combined.

Quoted message said:

They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my
first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!).

So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is
necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local
transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so
elequently put it)?

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for
sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such
a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and
present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum
are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more
forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3-
speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous
8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none
of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike
market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P

A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good
mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a
business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits
in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to
guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain,
which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike
ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by
non-enthusiast cyclists).

Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes
on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal
brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front
and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that
are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

26" or 700c wheels?

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

tim
http://www.townbikes.com - work in progress behind the scenes :-P

I want one of these bikes when you get them! I'm currently riding my mum's
1950s(?) Malvern Star, and the brakes terrify me. I don't trust them to stop
at the bottom of a hill, so I find myself braking the whole way down the
hill. I'm sure there must be a better way. I'd also like a side stand (I
know, I could easily get one). I ride to the shops (about 1km) or short
rides with my toddler in a front-mounted child seat. It doesn't seem worth
spending $900 (what my previous bike cost) for that. Maybe when my
daughter's a bit older and can ride her own bike.

Liz

Zebee Johnstone said:

I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a
lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men 🙂

A Giant Cypress City (complete with Chain guard, kick stand, hub gears,
no front derailer, lights, rack, suspension seat and front suspension)
is hardly a 'fashion statement' :-) [1]

G-S

[1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2]

[2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3]

[3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh*

Theo Bekkers said:

Quoted message said:

Amen! Personally, while my first two bicycles as a kid were single
speeds, I can't imagine ever buying or desiring a single speed again.

I only rode single-speeds as a kid and rode from Mt Lawley to Perth after I
started work on the same bike I had in High school. When I got back into
cycling at age 40, I rode a fixie for a while from Balga to the City. No big
deal. You just need to have a manageble gear, which means you're limiting
your top speed a little.

Assuming the area has no serious hills this is true. A serious hill
means gearing where either you get off and push or you settle for a top
speed of 15kph 🙂

G-S

In aus.bicycle on Tue, 27 Nov 2007 18:34:43 +1100

G-S said:

[1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2]

[2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3]

[3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh*

He has a shed full of c90s.

You have a sidecar. And of course a Guzzi.

THe prosecution rests m'lud

Zebee

"tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

G-S said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 00:45:30 -0800 (PST)
tim <[email hidden]> wrote:
> $600 for a coaster-braked single-speed steel-framed bike? Yeeeow!
Any rival would have to compete with k-mart bikes, which are what
people use for that job now.

That's my goal.

I've dispaired at the cheap bike options available in Australia for
years. BTH's good experiences with his BigW bike are refreshing, but
the fact remains - ultra-cheap bikes are very low quality and
generally unsuitable for their target and actual use. It makes no
sense to fit knobby tyres on a bike with the generic "not for off-road
use" sticker, for example.

The first few steps up the price ladder gets you more gimmicks and no
more quality. Dysfunctional suspension. Shockingly bad disc brakes.
Funky "Y-bike" frames that add weight, reduce strength and increase
the number of questionable welds.

Pay a bit more, the gimmicks get better in quality, until you're
paying $500+ for a reasonably good bike. I would still question
whether the style of the bike is appropriate for the target use - as
discussed in the thread that I've forked this from, Australian society
is set on the idea of cycling being a sport, and the categories of
bikes on the market ("road" or "mountain"😉 reflect this. "Hybrid"
bikes are a change from this, but simply don't exist at the lower
price level... where many of the people who would be best served by
such a bike are shopping.

I want to offer functional bikes for a price comparable to department
store junk bikes. Cheap, comfortable, reliable, and adequate for short
local trips.

I'm not kidding myself that this is a huge market segment. I'm not
about to quitting my day job and build a lavish corporate HQ. In the
first instance I'm only planning on selling a few cargo-bikes
(bakfietsen), which is an even smaller segment. But if I'm setting up
import and distribution channels I may as well look at other options
too. A bit more inventory. A few more pallets in the garage. A bit
more money tied up in stuff I hope I can sell. Gulp.

(This whole debacle started because I want a bakfiets to carry my
little girls, and couldn't find them for sale outside of Europe and
Portland, OR.. Next thing I know I'm setting myself up as an import
tycoon. Eeep.)

Quoted message said:

The prices for similar bikes from Europe are actually higher than that.

That's why I'm looking to source from China.

People admire Dutch and Danish cycling culture, so they look to buy
Dutch- and Danish-built bikes to follow the "simple bike" philosophy.
If you can afford a genuine Dutch single-speed city bike, good luck to
you. I'm sure they're great bikes, but the price doesn't fit the
product.

There's nearly a billion people riding basic single-speed bikes in
China and India combined, and they sure as heck can't afford premium
quality European craftsmanship. If anybody knows how to put a basic
steel bike frame together it's the Chinese. They sure build enough of
them. I suspect there are more miles ridden on Chinese single-speed
bikes than all other bikes in the world combined.

Quoted message said:

They do look good, but it's too hilly around here for single speeds (my
first real bike as a child proved that and I was fit then!).

So we get to the point of this post - what do people think is
necessary (and/or desireable) for a basic, general purpose, local
transport bike for lycra-free "unreal cyclists" (as PeteSig so
elequently put it)?

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for
sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such
a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and
present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum
are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more
forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3-
speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous
8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none
of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike
market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P

A good chain guard (or full chain case) is a must-have, as are good
mudguards. These bikes should be rideable in street clothes, or a
business suit, without getting filthy. The chain case requirement fits
in with the "no derailers" idea - a single chainline is easier to
guard. Chain guards are also a deadset nuisance if you drop a chain,
which is much more likely with derailer gears (especially if the bike
ends up in small-small gears, which they inevitably do when ridden by
non-enthusiast cyclists).

Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes
on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal
brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front
and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that
are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

26" or 700c wheels?

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

tim
http://www.townbikes.com - work in progress behind the scenes :-P

We've sold quite a few of the Gemini Gofas (shameless plug for my shop
warning) http://www.bikeexchange.com.au/adverts/preview/100004144. They
retail for $499 and come complete with lights, rack, basket, mudguards, lock
and stand. I think they are a good compromise in terms of gearing - rear
derailleur and single chainring. I found customers who are scared of
derailleurs are OK with the single chainring; perhaps they see it as less
threatening than having to shift front and rear. My shop is in the Perth
foothills and the gearing is sufficient for around here, even with some
steepish short hills.

I think as far as a cheap basic bike is concerned you'd battle to come in
much under the $500 retail mark when all's done with the accessories for a
utility bike. Maybe you could canvass the local importers and buy wholesale
from them and assemble complete packages like the Gofa. It might save you
the hassle of importing.

You could also approach Cell Bikes (
http://www.cellbikes.com.au/contact.php) and see if they will manufacture to
your spec. Let them do the work for you instead of hunting around for what
you want.

Just a couple of ideas...

me

"G-S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a
lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men 🙂

A Giant Cypress City (complete with Chain guard, kick stand, hub gears, no
front derailer, lights, rack, suspension seat and front suspension) is
hardly a 'fashion statement' :-) [1]

G-S

[1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2]

[2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3]

[3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh*

Yes it is - for certain people. The Cypress City has been popular with those
who want a 'cut above the Elwood' for pootling the Perth foreshore bike
paths and the like. There's a pootler's subculture that has its own
fashions. Not everybody's fashion consists of performance items. Some just
like to look good when being casual unreal cyclists - I do like that term 🙂

Toodles,

me

"tim" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears. Derailers are great for
sporting bikes - there's no better, lighter or cheaper way to get such
a wide range of gears - but they require some shifting technique, and
present the possibility of the chain falling off. People like my Mum
are scared of derailer gears. Hub gears are more rugged, more
forgiving of (moderate) neglect, and more foolproof in operation. 3-
speed hubs have been used for nearly 100 years. There are now numerous
8-speed hubs on the market (Shimano, Sram and Sturmey) although none
of them are particularly cheap. I don't think the local transport bike
market can afford, nor requires, Rohloff :-P

I'd say 3-5spd hub gears. One of my friends wanted a bike specifically
without a lot of gears as she doesn't want to have to deal with the
front/rear derailleur thing. When I described the 3spd SA hub on my Raleigh
as having a gear for going up hills, a gear for flat ground and a gear for
going down hills, she said that was exactly what she wanted. Five gears
could give the option for a properly low gear which I'm guessing could be a
very good thing when carting vast quantities of stuff home from the market
in the bakfiet. I'm rather interested in one of those, btw.

Quoted message said:

Asian and European city bikes tend to run coaster (back-pedal) brakes
on the rear wheel only. I survived okay as a kid with my back-pedal
brake BMX, but Australian law now requires all new bikes to have front
and rear brakes. Are rim brakes really a good choice for bikes that
are unlikely to have their rims replaced if (when) damaged? What about
drum brakes? I don't think discs are a viable option at this end of
the market - cheap discs simply don't work, and the rotors are always
susceptible to damage when jammed into bike racks etc..

Backpedal brakes are horrible bloody things for a variety of reasons. On the
other hand, a similar mechanism operated by cable to a hand lever rather
than by backpedalling would work fine. I suppose that's where we get to
roller brakes if you can do them cheaply and effectively. If your braking is
at the hub, go with a big spoke count. Actually, go with a big spoke count
anyway.

Quoted message said:

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

Both work. Frame stiffness on a stepthrough frame would be an issue when
you're getting on it in a sprint but not so much pootling to the shops. I
agree with lemmi on making the top tube proprly horizontal on the
conventional frame. There's no good functional reason for that but it's a
good look.

Quoted message said:

26" or 700c wheels?

Either work although my personal preferance would be for 700 purely on
aesthetic grounds. There are heaps of 35-38mm tourer tyres around that would
suit that sort of bike really well.

Quoted message said:

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

Some kind of cheap variant of the Brooks saddle bags? Dynamo lighting is
cool, but bottle generators are nasty and dynohubs are expensive, especially
if you're trying to incorporate them into a braked hub. If you're selling
these online, offer a certain amount of modularity with regards to bits
(would madame like north bend, flat, bullhorn or moustache bars with that?).
Centrestands are a thing that I can see being a distinct advantage
(especially for the bakfiet while trying to load and unload it).

Plodder said:

"G-S" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Zebee Johnstone said:

I agree. I have no idea how much "fashion" comes into it. For kids a
lot, for adults, maybe not so much. Well.. maybe adult men 🙂

A Giant Cypress City (complete with Chain guard, kick stand, hub gears, no
front derailer, lights, rack, suspension seat and front suspension) is
hardly a 'fashion statement' :-) [1]

G-S

[1] nor i suspect is BT's K-Mart bike! [2]

[2] we're adult... really we are *convincing look* [3]

[3] I don't think Zebee is buying it BTH *sigh*

Yes it is - for certain people. The Cypress City has been popular with those
who want a 'cut above the Elwood' for pootling the Perth foreshore bike
paths and the like. There's a pootler's subculture that has its own
fashions. Not everybody's fashion consists of performance items. Some just
like to look good when being casual unreal cyclists - I do like that term 🙂

Toodles,

me

Hmmm Interesting.

I'm not from Perth though, and I don't have a foreshore to ride along.
I live in a country victorian town and use the bike to commute to work.

Most of the cyclists here are lycra wearing race bike riders (very
active cycling club).

There are only a few people commuting that I've seen, and most tend to
commute on mountain bikes (riding a mountain bike seems unnecessary
extra effort to me).

I did look at the Elwood, then I looked at the Elwood SE (wanted front
suspension because our country road edges are shocking) but by the time
I added mudguards and chainguard and paid the shop to fit them there was
only $100 difference and I honestly thought the $100 extra for the hub
gears was worth it. [1]

G-S

[1] I will admit that I think the blue on the cypress city is a nicer
color if that helps ;-)

Resound said:

Centrestands are a thing that I can see being a distinct advantage
(especially for the bakfiet while trying to load and unload it).

You're right... I hate the sidestand on my cypress city with a passion.

It is easily the least practical bit of the bike, when I have weight in
the panniers the bike is very unstable.

G-S

G-S said:

Resound said:

Centrestands are a thing that I can see being a distinct advantage
(especially for the bakfiet while trying to load and unload it).

You're right... I hate the sidestand on my cypress city with a passion.

It is easily the least practical bit of the bike, when I have weight in
the panniers the bike is very unstable.

G-S

I'll third that. My only caveat would be not to get those horrible
centrestands that swing from the rear axle like are common on Dutch
bikes, but rather the neat two legged type that attach just behind the
bottom bracket like a sidestand and the legs tuck up underneath the
chainstays.
http://ebent.files.wordpress.com/2007/05/slipstreamtriangles.jpg

Theo Bekkers said:

Quoted message said:

Amen! Personally, while my first two bicycles as a kid were single
speeds, I can't imagine ever buying or desiring a single speed again.

I only rode single-speeds as a kid and rode from Mt Lawley to Perth after I
started work on the same bike I had in High school. When I got back into
cycling at age 40, I rode a fixie for a while from Balga to the City. No big
deal. You just need to have a manageble gear, which means you're limiting
your top speed a little.

Theo

Geoff pretty much hit the nail on the head. Most of the hills where I
live are such that a single speed would mean walking up them.

Quoted message said:

Theo Bekkers wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I only rode single-speeds as a kid and rode from Mt Lawley to Perth
after I started work on the same bike I had in High school. When I
got back into cycling at age 40, I rode a fixie for a while from
Balga to the City. No big deal. You just need to have a manageble
gear, which means you're limiting your top speed a little.

Quoted message said:

Geoff pretty much hit the nail on the head. Most of the hills where I
live are such that a single speed would mean walking up them.

I did have a steep hill which was on my route in, but I detoured around it
on the way home. So steep became long.

Theo

Theo Bekkers said:

Quoted message said:

Geoff pretty much hit the nail on the head. Most of the hills where I
live are such that a single speed would mean walking up them.

I did have a steep hill which was on my route in, but I detoured around it
on the way home. So steep became long.

Theo

I also have a steep hill on my route which I can detour around (and
usually do on the way home), however my place of employment is on top
of another hill which I can't detour around :-)

On 2007-11-27, [email hidden] (aka Bruce)
was almost, but not quite, entirely unlike tea:

Quoted message said:

Theo Bekkers said:

Quoted message said:

Geoff pretty much hit the nail on the head. Most of the hills where I
live are such that a single speed would mean walking up them.

I did have a steep hill which was on my route in, but I detoured around it
on the way home. So steep became long.

Theo

I also have a steep hill on my route which I can detour around (and
usually do on the way home), however my place of employment is on top
of another hill which I can't detour around :-)

I bet mine is bigger than yours 🙂

I've got myself a digital weatherstation thingy now. It predicted
rain for today based on the falling pressure. Let's see if I confuse
it when I take it up the mountain to a pressure of 850hPa. Might have
to rezero it when I get to the top...

--
TimC
And it should be the law: If you use the word `paradigm' without knowing
what the dictionary says it means, you go to jail. No exceptions.
-- David Jones

Theo Bekkers said:

I did have a steep hill which was on my route in, but I detoured around it
on the way home. So steep became long.

There's a steep hill in Perth! Where? Admittedly there are probably
huge bits of Perth I've not seen, but I've not come across anything
which I'd go out of my way to avoid on a single speed. My single speed
days were when I was younger and fitter but Edinburgh is rather well
known for being built on a bunch of hills.

Graeme

Zebee Johnstone said:

In aus.bicycle on Mon, 26 Nov 2007 15:39:38 -0800 (PST)

tim said:

Single-speed is as simple as it gets. But there's the hill issue. Cost
permitting, my preference would be hub gears.

Me too, but single speed works in a lot of places. I saw a single
speed Giant with wide slick tyres at my lbs a couple of months
ago. It was on special for $150. No gears, no gear lever or cable,
1 front brake and cable, 1 pedal brake. Can't get much simpler
than that. I was tempted.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How about frame style? Traditional diamond frame is a given; how about
step-through frames ("grandmother bikes" as the Dutch would call
them)? Not good for frame stiffness, but intended to be easier to ride
in a skirt. I've never ridden in a long skirt, so I don't know how
much of an issue this is.

I think not so much a skirt as for ease of getting on and off. Modern
bikes have high BBs so high seats. If you can get lower BBs so people
can sit on the seat with feet on the ground - yes that's not "most
efficient" but they don't care - then that would be good.

My wife and 16yo daughter won't ride a diamond frame bike. They
don't wear skirts, it is a security thing - they like to feel that
they
can easily jump off the seat and stand without falling over. For
some reason swinging their leg backwards frightens them.

Doesn't have to be the full granny style - the girl mtb with the bar
running down to about halfway between seat and pedals is fine.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Any other thoughts or suggestions?

I like the dutch-style swept back handlebars.

Graeme Dods said:

There's a steep hill in Perth! Where?

I grew up in Lesmurdie. I'lll see your Edinburgh hill and raise you
a Darling scarp.