progress

"Michelle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to my friend, eating or drinking carbs right before or
during
the beginning of a run will get the body expecting them, and shutting
down the fat burning cycle.

This is 95% BS! At one point in time Carbo loading before a race was
the thing to do. This was a process whereby you did not eat any(or very
few carbs) for about three days and then about three days before the
race you ate mucho carbs. The effect was to get your body to store extra
carbs after a brief deprivation period. More recent studies show that
carbo loading is not much better then eating a balanced diet before a
race. Now, not ingesting carbs the night before a race is downright
dangerous and very bad advice. The carbs will keep you glycogen stores
maxed. Glycogen is your fuel. If you choose to not eat carbs, especially
if your going to be out there around three hours, is like keeping your
gas tank on empty.

Not to take shots but your friend sounds like an Atkins low carb fan.
For reference, when I use carbs I'm not taking about simple carbs like
cake and cookies but complex carbs like vegetables and grains. This is
why many pre-race meals are pasta. Do you think they would serve pasta
if it was bad for you? In fact don't hydrate the night before on plain
water or we might be having a discussion on hyponatremia.

During a race you also need carbs especially if you're going to out
there for a long time. Taking in carbs does NOT shut down burning fat.
I will add that Gatorbarf is a fuctose/sucrose, simple sugars, drink. If
one is diabetic then there might be a problem. Unless you are ultra GI
sensitive and why you should try the race fluid in training, then it's a
non issue. In cases like that there are drinks that are made from lower
glycemic maltodextrin but let's not go there now.

Quoted message said:

I sweat a lot while running; especially in this Arizona heat. I can
sweat a half gallon in a six mile run.

In this case taking fluids is very important along with salt. If the
suggestion is to take NUUN for same additional salt, then this is fine.
But as I said before, you need to know before race day how much extra
salt to take. If you take in too much salt, just as well as too little
salt, your stomach stops absorbing fluids, you bloat, and your race can
be jeopardized . OTOH is good that your looking at taking some extra
salt as GA has very little and in a hot race some more will really
help, assuming you know how much to take.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd find out what the race is serving as their sport drink and train
with it.

Fortunately for me, they serve Gatorade. I plan to carry a bottle of
NUUN and a bottle of Gatorade on the run, and will drink the Gatorade
at
each aid station in addition to what I'll be carrying.

By "a" bottle do you mean the little bottle of NUUN or another 20 Oz
jug? I could not find on the web page the amount of real sodium. The
360MG is Sodium Carbonate. Your assignment is find out what is the
percent of sodium. My best guess would be 40%, so that's 144 MG of Na.
If close one bottle NUUN is not great source of salt, but better than
none. For future reference I would look into SUCCEED!Caps. They are salt
caps that very effective and easy to carry and they don't put a bunch of
silly vitamins in them to make them appear healthy.

A great idea to carry a bottle. This will allow you to drink between aid
stations and not have to gulp all your fluids at once.

-Doug

"Michelle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I didn't mean to imply that I don't find tracking weight useful. I
meant that although BMI is a good indicator for some things, it is not
as useful as fat percentage. I actually track both; I've got a
spreadsheet tied to charts that track weight, body fat, fat weight,
lean
weight, and BMI. My personal trainer measures my body fat weekly.

What does he use to measure fat?

Michelle said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

Ultimately, all that matters is calories in versus calories out. It
doesn't matter whether you burn more fat here or there. If you take
in 200 calories worth of gatorade during a run, that's fine, but it's
200 calories that you may not have otherwise taken.

Understood; however, my friend says that to be a successful endurance
runner, you need to have your body burn fat during long-distance runs.

If you're concerned about distance running adaption -- I don't know many
people who recommend doing long runs in a glycogen depleted state. Run at
a slow pace, and a substantial portion of calories burned come from fat,
even if you take gatorade on the run.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For easy training runs less than an hour duration, electrolyte
replenishment during the run shouldn't be an issue. IOW, you could
ditch the NUUN and have plain old water instead.

The amount I sweat, I'm not so sure about that.

Half a gallon an hour is not unusual for hot weather. That's certainly enough
that you will probably get thirsty and want/need to take water but it's not
enough to worry about serious electrolyte depletion.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Michelle" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

According to my friend, eating or drinking carbs right before or during
the beginning of a run will get the body expecting them, and shutting
down the fat burning cycle.

This is 95% BS! At one point in time Carbo loading before a race was the
thing to do. This was a process whereby you did not eat any(or very few
carbs) for about three days and then about three days before the race you
ate mucho carbs. The effect was to get your body to store extra carbs
after a brief deprivation period. More recent studies show that carbo
loading is not much better then eating a balanced diet before a race. Now,
not ingesting carbs the night before a race is downright dangerous and
very bad advice. The carbs will keep you glycogen stores maxed. Glycogen
is your fuel. If you choose to not eat carbs, especially if your going to
be out there around three hours, is like keeping your gas tank on empty.

Not to take shots but your friend sounds like an Atkins low carb fan. For
reference, when I use carbs I'm not taking about simple carbs like cake
and cookies but complex carbs like vegetables and grains. This is why many
pre-race meals are pasta. Do you think they would serve pasta if it was
bad for you? In fact don't hydrate the night before on plain water or we
might be having a discussion on hyponatremia.

Carbs are a potent fuel genetic-historically. Atkins was definitely onto
something about abusive sugar/starch eating and how that can lead to
prediabetic syndrome. So, while it's not that pasta is bad for you, refined
grains aren't as healthy as unrefined grains, and if you're eating a large
percentage of carbs and are skimping on healthy fats and protein (e.g. the
lowfat diet), that can lead to an unhealthy imbalance, and can lead to a
carb craving syndrome. In any case, carbs are most definitely needed for
optimum training and racing, but in exactly what balance and variety -
that's individual and beyond the scope of this group 😉

Quoted message said:

During a race you also need carbs especially if you're going to out there
for a long time. Taking in carbs does NOT shut down burning fat. I will
add that Gatorbarf is a fuctose/sucrose, simple sugars, drink. If one is
diabetic then there might be a problem. Unless you are ultra GI sensitive
and why you should try the race fluid in training, then it's a non issue.
In cases like that there are drinks that are made from lower glycemic
maltodextrin but let's not go there now.

Yes, and it's best to start eating very early in the run, way before you get
hungry or bonk. In long races I like to start drinking sports drink within
the first 15 minutes or so, and sometimes also start nibbling on an energy
bar within 30 minutes, but that was for ultras.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I sweat a lot while running; especially in this Arizona heat. I can
sweat a half gallon in a six mile run.

In this case taking fluids is very important along with salt. If the
suggestion is to take NUUN for same additional salt, then this is fine.
But as I said before, you need to know before race day how much extra salt
to take. If you take in too much salt, just as well as too little salt,
your stomach stops absorbing fluids, you bloat, and your race can be
jeopardized . OTOH is good that your looking at taking some extra salt as
GA has very little and in a hot race some more will really help, assuming
you know how much to take.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I'd find out what the race is serving as their sport drink and train
with it.

Fortunately for me, they serve Gatorade. I plan to carry a bottle of
NUUN and a bottle of Gatorade on the run, and will drink the Gatorade at
each aid station in addition to what I'll be carrying.

By "a" bottle do you mean the little bottle of NUUN or another 20 Oz jug?
I could not find on the web page the amount of real sodium. The 360MG is
Sodium Carbonate. Your assignment is find out what is the percent of
sodium. My best guess would be 40%, so that's 144 MG of Na. If close one
bottle NUUN is not great source of salt, but better than none. For future
reference I would look into SUCCEED!Caps. They are salt caps that very
effective and easy to carry and they don't put a bunch of silly vitamins
in them to make them appear healthy.

A great idea to carry a bottle. This will allow you to drink between aid
stations and not have to gulp all your fluids at once.

-Doug

I 2nd this. Get a comfy waist bottle holder with a small cargo pouch. The
one I like is
Solitaire HHS, shown here:
http://www.ultimatedirection.com/product.php?page=waistpacks
I use a Zefal liter sized bike bottle instead of the supplied bottle, which
fits tighter and holds more. There's room for keys, cellphone, energy
bars...

-Tony

Doug Freese said:

"shinypenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Michelle said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

shinypenny <[email hidden]> wrote:
> Yeah, that's an interesting discussion. When it comes to running
> faster, is it the total weight that matters, or the amount of body
> fat you're dragging around?

I think that it's not an either-or question. If losing total weight
also involves losing muscle mass, that could slow you down or at
least
countervail any benefit from the lost weight. And you need some fat
to
burn while running.

> I ran my fastest 5K when I weighed 125 lbs with a body fat of 13%.
> This is when I was body building, so I had a lot of muscle. Now I
> am
> not body building and haven't been in years. I have somewhere
> between
> 18-23% body fat, but weigh only 107, and I'm actually an inch or
> two
> wider in places than I was at 13% bf and 125 lbs. And I'm definetly
> slower.

13% of 125 is 16.25 pounds of fat.

23% of 107 is 24.61 pounds of fat.
18% of 107 is 19.25 pounds of fat.

My scale has the impedance testing, it gives me 23% but apparently
these scales are notoriously inaccurate and tend to read high for
women. The Navy method, and a few other ones online (Covert Bailey has
a good one), where you pop in your neck, waist, hip, thigh, calf, etc
measurements, all put me at 18%. I figure if I had it tested with
calipers the results would probably be somewhere in the middle... but
who knows.

The 13% was calculated using caliper method when I belonged to a gym.
So that's the only one I'm really sure about!

Jen, calipers are equally notorious for inaccuracy as is impedance and
yes, Bailey. If you don't mind a +/! 5% variance then ok. Unless they

Also, it's not a random error. That is, if the caliper reading is 2% lower
than "true" %bf today, chances are when the same person using the same caliper
and same tables does the same measurement the next day, the "error" will not
be substantially different.

If your caliper measurements indicate dropping numbers, chances are you're
losing body fat.

Where people run into trouble is when they try to extrapolate how many pounds
of fat and how many pounds of lean mass they have and then conclude that it is
only "possible" to lose X pounds, because they "have Y pounds of fat".

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Doug Freese said:

Jen, calipers are equally notorious for inaccuracy as is impedance and
yes, Bailey. If you don't mind a +/! 5% variance then ok. Unless they
have come up with something as accurate, the hydrostatic method will
give you real numbers. An underwater scale. All the other hand held
doodads can't be trusted at all. Some YM/WCA's offer the service.

I'm actually fine with the +/-5% variation. I'm more concerned with
the trend. My impedance scale and the online calculators both show the
same difference in bf% lost (6% since January), so that's what counts
to me.

And yesterday, while cleaning out my closets, I discovered an easier
way to gauge my progress!! I found a skirt that I used to wear back
during my body building/running days. I can zip it now, but it's not
quite what I'd call comfortable. When I can wear it comfortably
(another inch off my waist) I'll know that I'm back at my peak lowest
bf%.... whatever that number happens to be. :-)

jen

Doug Freese said:

The weight will come off as long as you burn more Kcal then you take in.
Please note that "on average" we burn 100 KCal per mile. So a 4 mile run
is 400 Kcal. If one was to go to Starbuck's after a run for a triple
yada with piece of lemon pound cake, well, you get the picture.

Grr... I ran 5 miles yesterday and only burned 330 cals!

jen

Doug Freese said:

Many of the females that run a lot have to enter the boys
wet tee shirt contests but they usually have great butts, flat stomachs,
shapely strong legs. 🙂

I don't know about that... I've seen a fair number of runners with a
small paunch. Just watching the Boston Marathon each year, the mid-
packers all have a small paunch. Probably too many carbs! Or the "I
went running so I can have an extra beer" syndrome.

Running is definetly doing great things for my thighs, but not so sure
about the butt -it's nearly disappeared- and my hips are completely
gone. Kinda looking boyish these days. When I did the body building, I
used to have more curves. Some squats and lunges would take care of
that, I think.

As for the upper body, I wouldn't waste my time with light weights.
They do nothing. Nah, I'd use heavy weights. I don't bulk up - very
few women do.

jen

Elflord said:

Doug Freese said:

"shinypenny" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

To guard against losing muscle, I've been very careful this time with
my diet - nothing extreme. My software program estimates that since
January I have averaged only a 175 calorie deficit per day. My calf
muscle has stayed the same measurement as the rest of me has shrunk,

Quoted message said:

You do use and stengthen you calf when you run. It is weight lifting
just like curls. 🙂

The repetitions are higher when you run. Too high to be effective as strength
work.

Right. I figure I have maintained muscle mass as best as possible
(considering), but it's unlikely I've gained any, since I've done no
weight training and I've been in caloric deficit.

jen

Elflord said:

This is really a corner case. The vast majority of people with a BMI of 30 are just
plain fat. There are maybe a few who are super-athletic body builders, but for each
super athletic body builder, there are 100 fat slobs out there, many of who will
swear black and blue that they are "big boned", or "it's all muscle" or whatever.

And then there are people who never exercise with normal or even
underweight BMIs, but a body scan will show that they are "skinny fat"
with lots of fat in and around the organs and muscles.

jen

Michelle said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Doug Freese said:

Whoa girl, bad science. For run under an hour you can get by with
simple water. Once you go over the hour please use a drink with carbs
be it Gatorade or any of the multitude of sport drinks. Not drinking
or eating carbs on a long run will NOT, repeat NOT get your body to
burn more fat.

According to my friend, eating or drinking carbs right before or during
the beginning of a run will get the body expecting them, and shutting
down the fat burning cycle.

I don't know if that's true. If anything, I've been under the
impression that running on an empty stomach increases your chances of
burning muscle.

However, now that I am forced to run on an empty stomach (because of
GERD), and having no problems with that, I'm tending to believe that
it probably matters far more what you eat within an hour *after*
exercise, than what you eat before a run. You have a window of
opportunity after your run to restore glycogen in the muscles. If you
goof that up, your next run is going to suck... whether on an empty
stomach or not.

Quoted message said:

I sweat a lot while running; especially in this Arizona heat. I can
sweat a half gallon in a six mile run.

Quoted message said:

I'd find out what the race is serving as their sport drink and train
with it.

Fortunately for me, they serve Gatorade. I plan to carry a bottle of
NUUN and a bottle of Gatorade on the run, and will drink the Gatorade at
each aid station in addition to what I'll be carrying.

Gatorade while running gives me stomach cramps.

jen

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

Also, it's not a random error. That is, if the caliper reading is 2%
lower than "true" %bf today, chances are when the same person using
the same caliper and same tables does the same measurement the next
day, the "error" will not be substantially different.

If your caliper measurements indicate dropping numbers, chances are
you're losing body fat.

My personal trainer uses calipers; it's one of those ones that records
the readings, averages the readings+6, and even has an adjustment knob
to set the person's age and gender.

Still, the accuracy depends on the skill and consistency of the person
taking the measurements. And, as you said, the actual numbers aren't as
relevant as the trend.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Elflord said:

Quoted message said:

Understood; however, my friend says that to be a successful
endurance runner, you need to have your body burn fat during
long-distance runs.

If you're concerned about distance running adaption -- I don't know
many people who recommend doing long runs in a glycogen depleted
state. Run at a slow pace, and a substantial portion of calories
burned come from fat, even if you take gatorade on the run.

She is not recommending that I completely eliminate carbs during a run,
but that I reserve them for later in the run.

Quoted message said:

Half a gallon an hour is not unusual for hot weather. That's
certainly enough that you will probably get thirsty and want/need to
take water but it's not enough to worry about serious electrolyte
depletion.

I thought it was a matter of both depletion and dilution.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Doug Freese said:

What does he use to measure fat?

Calipers, but the point is not so much the exact percentage as it is the
trend. So long as he is consistent week to week, the trend will be
accurate.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Doug Freese said:

Quoted message said:

According to my friend, eating or drinking carbs right before or
during the beginning of a run will get the body expecting them, and
shutting down the fat burning cycle.

This is 95% BS! At one point in time Carbo loading before a race was
the thing to do. This was a process whereby you did not eat any(or
very few carbs) for about three days and then about three days before
the race you ate mucho carbs.

She was talking about within a few minutes before (as in a GU right
before the race), not the night before. She strongly encourages carb
loading the night before running.

Quoted message said:

In cases like that there are drinks that are made from lower glycemic
maltodextrin but let's not go there now.

That's her favorite energy drink that she alternates with NUUN when she
runs. I believe she drinks Cytomax.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I sweat a lot while running; especially in this Arizona heat. I
can sweat a half gallon in a six mile run.

In this case taking fluids is very important along with salt. If the
suggestion is to take NUUN for same additional salt, then this is
fine. But as I said before, you need to know before race day how much
extra salt to take.

I haven't been drinking it before running, only while running.

Quoted message said:

By "a" bottle do you mean the little bottle of NUUN or another 20 Oz
jug?

A 20 Oz bottle. I don't like to carry anything in my hands while
running, so I bought a belt to carry the bottles. Actually, I have two
belts; one for one bottle and another for two bottles. It takes just
over four miles for me to finish a 20-ounce bottle, so on four-mile and
shorter runs, I use the one-bottle belt. When I started running longer
than four miles on my long runs, I bought the other belt.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

shinypenny said:

Elflord said:

This is really a corner case. The vast majority of people with a BMI of 30
are just plain fat. There are maybe a few who are super-athletic body
builders, but for each super athletic body builder, there are 100 fat slobs
out there, many of who will swear black and blue that they are "big boned",
or "it's all muscle" or whatever.

And then there are people who never exercise with normal or even
underweight BMIs, but a body scan will show that they are "skinny fat"
with lots of fat in and around the organs and muscles.

Those people are not terribly athletic (the only way to become athletic is to
do some exercise), but they are not obese or dangerously fat either.

Cheers,
--
Elflord

In article <[email hidden]>,

shinypenny said:

Quoted message said:

According to my friend, eating or drinking carbs right before or
during the beginning of a run will get the body expecting them, and
shutting down the fat burning cycle.

I don't know if that's true. If anything, I've been under the
impression that running on an empty stomach increases your chances of
burning muscle.

I guess that I'm not explaining things properly. She is talking about
stuff like GU within fifteen minutes before running or within the first
half hour or so of the run. She is not talking about not having carbs
the night before or not having breakfast the morning of the run.

--
Crossing the starting line is 90%.
Crossing the finish line is the other 90%.

shinypenny said:

Doug Freese said:

The weight will come off as long as you burn more Kcal then you take in.
Please note that "on average" we burn 100 KCal per mile. So a 4 mile run
is 400 Kcal. If one was to go to Starbuck's after a run for a triple
yada with piece of lemon pound cake, well, you get the picture.

Grr... I ran 5 miles yesterday and only burned 330 cals!

Yeah, that's 'cos you weigh 107lb. I doubt you'll have much success in getting
sympathy...

Cheers,
--
Elflord

Elflord said:

shinypenny said:

On Sep 16, 9:32 pm, Elflord <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This is really a corner case. The vast majority of people with a BMI of 30
are just plain fat. There are maybe a few who are super-athletic body
builders, but for each super athletic body builder, there are 100 fat slobs
out there, many of who will swear black and blue that they are "big boned",
or "it's all muscle" or whatever.

Quoted message said:

And then there are people who never exercise with normal or even
underweight BMIs, but a body scan will show that they are "skinny fat"
with lots of fat in and around the organs and muscles.

Those people are not terribly athletic (the only way to become athletic is to
do some exercise), but they are not obese or dangerously fat either.

My understanding is that fat around the organs is far more dangerous
than fat under the skin.

Check this out:
http://www.martinfrost.ws/htmlfiles/dec2006/fat_inside.html

Yes, exercise is the way to get rid of this type of fat. Which (being
prediabetic) is a big reason why I exercise and don't just diet.

jen

Elflord said:

shinypenny said:

On Sep 16, 7:20 pm, "Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The weight will come off as long as you burn more Kcal then you take in.
Please note that "on average" we burn 100 KCal per mile. So a 4 mile run
is 400 Kcal. If one was to go to Starbuck's after a run for a triple
yada with piece of lemon pound cake, well, you get the picture.

Quoted message said:

Grr... I ran 5 miles yesterday and only burned 330 cals!

Yeah, that's 'cos you weigh 107lb. I doubt you'll have much success in getting
sympathy...

:-)

But it's just not fair ... our scale also estimates the daily calories
one can eat to maintain weight. I can only eat 1850 ... my DH weighs
150 or so, with low bf%, and the scale claims he can gorge on a
whopping 3790 calories without gaining!!!

So we buy Haagen Daz by the quart... I get a few meager spoonfuls and
he eats the rest of the container. :-(

jen