How long before Octalink V2 is orphaned?

Donald Gillies said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Octalink V1/V2 was clearly an 8-year experiment for Shimano.

How much longer before Shimano stops offering Octalink V2 cartridges
?? Will they give up completley once the patents expire?

Ha ha!

The experience will not be wasted if you (and others) remember it the
next time you make a major bike or component purchase. Shimano will
continue to hand out such lessons-- see the latest "Coasting" group--
until consumers take heed and stop buying into their planned
obsolescence.

Chalo

Quoted message said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Why does this come up so often? Where is the evidence to support it?

Shimano may in fact not have all manner of choices to support older
component groups, but rarely have they put people in a bind with no choices
at all. For example, you can still get a wide selection of gearing options
in 7 & 8-speed cassettes, although you're not going to get a Dura-Ace option
any more; you might have to settle for Ultegra or '105 etc.

Shimano will sometimes even create new parts for older groups to solve
problems, such as a more-reliable version of 8-speed STI lever.

There will always be exceptions if you look hard enough, but that's not the
norm. In all likelihood, you'll be able to get Octalink cartridge BBs for
some time to come. Maybe you'll have to settle for LX instead of XT quality,
but it's unlikely you'll be orphaned.

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"Donald Gillies" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Octalink V1/V2 was clearly an 8-year experiment for Shimano.

How much longer before Shimano stops offering Octalink V2 cartridges
?? Will they give up completley once the patents expire?

- Don Gillies
San Diego, CA

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Why does this come up so often? Where is the evidence to support it?

The evidence is people repeating it over and over again, regardless of
reality.

--
JT
****************************
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Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Why does this come up so often? Where is the evidence to support it?

Shimano may in fact not have all manner of choices to support older
component groups, but rarely have they put people in a bind with no choices
at all. For example, you can still get a wide selection of gearing options
in 7 & 8-speed cassettes, although you're not going to get a Dura-Ace option
any more; you might have to settle for Ultegra or '105 etc.

Shimano will sometimes even create new parts for older groups to solve
problems, such as a more-reliable version of 8-speed STI lever.

There will always be exceptions if you look hard enough, but that's not the
norm. In all likelihood, you'll be able to get Octalink cartridge BBs for
some time to come. Maybe you'll have to settle for LX instead of XT quality,
but it's unlikely you'll be orphaned.

103mm square axle for Dura Ace cranksets? Not supplied by Shimano
anymore, so about 15 years?
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Chalo said:

Donald Gillies said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Quoted message said:

Octalink V1/V2 was clearly an 8-year experiment for Shimano.

Quoted message said:

How much longer before Shimano stops offering Octalink V2 cartridges
?? Will they give up completley once the patents expire?

Ha ha!

The experience will not be wasted if you (and others) remember it the
next time you make a major bike or component purchase. Shimano will
continue to hand out such lessons-- see the latest "Coasting" group--
until consumers take heed and stop buying into their planned
obsolescence.

I quite agree, but I wonder how many buyers (as a percentage) made a
concious decision to buy an Octalink BB (other than as a replacement)
v. the multitude that were more or less 'force fed' Octalink on a new
bike purchase.

Ozark Bicycle said:

I quite agree, but I wonder how many buyers (as a percentage) made a
concious decision to buy an Octalink BB (other than as a replacement)
v. the multitude that were more or less 'force fed' Octalink on a new
bike purchase.

And I wonder how many sales Campagnolo missed for insisting on their own
135mm BCD chainrings

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

M-gineering said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

I quite agree, but I wonder how many buyers (as a percentage) made a
concious decision to buy an Octalink BB (other than as a replacement)
v. the multitude that were more or less 'force fed' Octalink on a new
bike purchase.

And I wonder how many sales Campagnolo missed for insisting on their own
135mm BCD chainrings

Quite a large number, IMO. Personally, I would *never* buy a Campy
crank for this very reason.

M-gineering said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

I quite agree, but I wonder how many buyers (as a percentage) made a
concious decision to buy an Octalink BB (other than as a replacement)
v. the multitude that were more or less 'force fed' Octalink on a new
bike purchase.

And I wonder how many sales Campagnolo missed for insisting on their own
135mm BCD chainrings

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNLwww.m-gineering.nl

?? Ya think somebody bought a shimano or other 130mm BCD crank for
their otherwise Campagnolo gruppo because of 135mm?? When there are a
bunch of Campag and other CRs out there in 135mm??

Doubt it myself. 135 CRs are not exactly hard to find, never have
been. If your LBS or favorite MO place doesn't have them, they are
being lazy. Same with a lot of things, like 36h rims and hubs.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

?? Ya think somebody bought a shimano or other 130mm BCD crank for
their otherwise Campagnolo gruppo because of 135mm?? When there are a
bunch of Campag and other CRs out there in 135mm??

Doubt it myself. 135 CRs are not exactly hard to find, never have
been. If your LBS or favorite MO place doesn't have them, they are
being lazy. Same with a lot of things, like 36h rims and hubs.

nothing to do with being lazy, everything to do with not accepting
another stupid standard with no benefit to the consumer. I would happily
have substituted octalink stuff with a square taper Campy crankset but
for the oddball chainrings. Nor do I see a point in fitting 'Escape'
gruppo's when I can order the original from Shimano 😉

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

I quite agree, but I wonder how many buyers (as a percentage) made a
concious decision to buy an Octalink BB (other than as a replacement)
v. the multitude that were more or less 'force fed' Octalink on a new
bike purchase.

M-gineering said:

And I wonder how many sales Campagnolo missed for insisting on their own
135mm BCD chainrings

Hmmm. How often do you change gearing on your bikes? I've reformatted
rarely.
If I planned to switch rings often I'd get a Campagnolo 110mm crank.
110mm has the broadest support of any.

[my latest crank change was to dump a TA 3-pin profesionnel 46t and
mount that same ring on a Magistroni steel crank]
--
Andrew Muzi
www.yellowjersey.org
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

M-gineering said:

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

?? Ya think somebody bought a shimano or other 130mm BCD crank for
their otherwise Campagnolo gruppo because of 135mm?? When there are a
bunch of Campag and other CRs out there in 135mm??

Quoted message said:

Doubt it myself. 135 CRs are not exactly hard to find, never have
been. If your LBS or favorite MO place doesn't have them, they are
being lazy. Same with a lot of things, like 36h rims and hubs.

nothing to do with being lazy, everything to do with not accepting
another stupid standard with no benefit to the consumer.

Exactly! The 130mm BCD was pretty well established for 'road' cranks
when Campy made the switch from their old, ca. 1968, 144mm BCD. But
instead of adopting an emerging standard, they 'invented' a new, 135mm
BCD. To what end?

Quoted message said:

I would happily
have substituted octalink stuff with a square taper Campy crankset but
for the oddball chainrings. Nor do I see a point in fitting 'Escape'
gruppo's when I can order the original from Shimano 😉

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNLwww.m-gineering.nl

A Muzi said:

Quoted message said:

Ozark Bicycle said:

I quite agree, but I wonder how many buyers (as a percentage) made a
concious decision to buy an Octalink BB (other than as a replacement)
v. the multitude that were more or less 'force fed' Octalink on a new
bike purchase.

M-gineering said:

And I wonder how many sales Campagnolo missed for insisting on their
own 135mm BCD chainrings

Hmmm. How often do you change gearing on your bikes? I've reformatted
rarely.

If I sell something I want to support it, and I can do without another
bunch of rings taking up space and money.

Substituting rings (42 for 39's , smaller rings for youth categories, is
common.

Quoted message said:

If I planned to switch rings often I'd get a Campagnolo 110mm crank.
110mm has the broadest support of any.

But Campa has managed to screw that one up as well!

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Ozark Bicycle said:

The 130mm BCD was pretty well established for 'road' cranks
when Campy made the switch from their old, ca. 1968, 144mm BCD. But
instead of adopting an emerging standard, they 'invented' a new, 135mm
BCD. To what end?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NIH_syndrome

Quoted message said:

103mm square axle for Dura Ace cranksets? Not supplied by Shimano anymore,
so about 15 years?

I'm scratching my head on that one. Which version DuraAce crankset was that?
Are we talking 7-speed? If so, that falls into another black hole- the
7-speed (I think) cassettes that had a threaded first cog. But I believe
we're talking pre-1990. In any event, you could still order a Phil BB for
it, and possibly one of the 107s would work if the extra spacing were on the
left side, but not so sure about that.

It's certainly an unusual scenario, and not one I'm going to lose too much
sleep over. Just as I'm not blaming Campy that I can't get a bottom bracket
anymore for my Nuovo Record crankset (although admittedly that goes back
quite a bit further back in time!).

--Mike Jacoubowsky
Chain Reaction Bicycles
www.ChainReaction.com
Redwood City & Los Altos, CA USA

"M-gineering" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Why does this come up so often? Where is the evidence to support it?

Shimano may in fact not have all manner of choices to support older
component groups, but rarely have they put people in a bind with no
choices at all. For example, you can still get a wide selection of
gearing options in 7 & 8-speed cassettes, although you're not going to
get a Dura-Ace option any more; you might have to settle for Ultegra or
'105 etc.

Shimano will sometimes even create new parts for older groups to solve
problems, such as a more-reliable version of 8-speed STI lever.

There will always be exceptions if you look hard enough, but that's not
the norm. In all likelihood, you'll be able to get Octalink cartridge BBs
for some time to come. Maybe you'll have to settle for LX instead of XT
quality, but it's unlikely you'll be orphaned.

103mm square axle for Dura Ace cranksets? Not supplied by Shimano anymore,
so about 15 years?
--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

103mm square axle for Dura Ace cranksets? Not supplied by Shimano anymore,
so about 15 years?

I'm scratching my head on that one. Which version DuraAce crankset was that?

7400, 8 speed

Quoted message said:

Are we talking 7-speed? If so, that falls into another black hole- the
7-speed (I think) cassettes that had a threaded first cog.

You can file HG's to replace splined UG's,

But I believe

Quoted message said:

we're talking pre-1990. In any event, you could still order a Phil BB for
it,

$140 ex tax, shipping, customs...... You could buy a bike for that! I'm
glad there are some easier options 😉

--
---
Marten Gerritsen

INFOapestaartjeM-GINEERINGpuntNL
www.m-gineering.nl

Chalo Colina said:

Quoted message said:

Shimano is not known for providing spare parts support.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Octalink V1/V2 was clearly an 8-year experiment for Shimano.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How much longer before Shimano stops offering Octalink V2
cartridges? Will they give up completely once the patents expire?

Quoted message said:

Ha ha!

Quoted message said:

The experience will not be wasted if you (and others) remember it
the next time you make a major bike or component purchase. Shimano
will continue to hand out such lessons-- see the latest "Coasting"
group-- until consumers take heed and stop buying into their planned
obsolescence.

This reeks of conspiracy theory. These folks do not see any advantage
in a product that will soon be found wanting. They do the best they
can and when competition and mechanical failures start catching up
with their design, the try something else. I suspect they have
several designs competing to be the front runner so there is something
in the wings when plan-A fails. As explained, Octalink V1 and V2 were
a misunderstanding of the failure mode.

Rotational elastic backlash is not part of their experience so they
were unaware that goofy-footed riders would unscrew the retaining bolt
allowing the crank to shear off the end of spline still in engagement
as it backed out. Standing goofy-footed is the only time the crank
spindle transmits reverse torque, something that ekes back and forth
with each recurrence. Shimano thought the splines were too weak so
they made them deeper in V2 never understanding the V1 failure mode
that remains regardless of spline engagement depth.

This has nothing to do with patents or other planning. When the user
base dwindles to an acceptably low level (units shipped) they get out
of the product and hope everyone forgets how it failed.

Jobst Brandt

Mike Jacoubowsky said:

Quoted message said:

103mm square axle for Dura Ace cranksets? Not supplied by Shimano anymore,
so about 15 years?

I'm scratching my head on that one. Which version DuraAce crankset was that?

"8-speed" I think. Nice product, shame about the BB availablity. One
of Shimano's errors.

Very low res shot here on the red bike
http://www.jt10000.com/team/tgal/orc00m6.htm

--
JT
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Visit http://www.jt10000.com
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Jobst Brandt said:

ChaloColina said:

The experience will not be wasted if you (and others) remember it
the next time you make a major bike or component purchase. Shimano
will continue to hand out such lessons-- see the latest "Coasting"
group-- until consumers take heed and stop buying into their planned
obsolescence.

This reeks of conspiracy theory. These folks do not see any advantage
in a product that will soon be found wanting. They do the best they
can and when competition and mechanical failures start catching up
with their design, the try something else.

....

Quoted message said:

This has nothing to do with patents or other planning. When the user
base dwindles to an acceptably low level (units shipped) they get out
of the product and hope everyone forgets how it failed.

I don't suggest that the plan to leave customers out in the cold, but
I do suggest that they plan to constantly introduce proprietary
standards *because they are proprietary*, and for no other reason. If
you can review the market history of Shimano and conclude otherwise, I
suggest that you just aren't looking very hard.

Introducing, and then abandoning, proprietary standards inevitably
leads to consumers being cheated of product support. Right now the
story is unfolding with Octalink, but it could just as well be about
Positron, or 10mm pitch chain and sprockets, or 2mm brake cables.
Auto-D, Coasting, and the peculiar axle-mounted Saint derailleur (to
name a few) are on the slate for the same treatment in the future.

Quoted message said:

From the consumer standpoint, I don't think it really matters whether

they are planning to screw you, or instead they just adopt a marketing
approach that consistently screws you as a side effect. The correct
strategy for dealing with it is the same: don't buy Shimano's [censored].

I understand that you just finally decided to update your rear wheels
to cassette after, what, 300,000 miles? You were able to do that
distance because for all that time you could get decent cones and
other small parts for your hubs. If instead you had bought Shimano
hubs those many years ago, the wheels you are just now retiring would
be a dim and distant memory, long since cast aside for lack of quality
replacement parts.

Chalo

In article <[email hidden]>,

Chalo said:

Jobst Brandt said:

ChaloColina said:

The experience will not be wasted if you (and others) remember it
the next time you make a major bike or component purchase. Shimano
will continue to hand out such lessons-- see the latest "Coasting"
group-- until consumers take heed and stop buying into their planned
obsolescence.

This reeks of conspiracy theory. These folks do not see any advantage
in a product that will soon be found wanting. They do the best they
can and when competition and mechanical failures start catching up
with their design, the try something else.

...

Quoted message said:

This has nothing to do with patents or other planning. When the user
base dwindles to an acceptably low level (units shipped) they get out
of the product and hope everyone forgets how it failed.

I don't suggest that the plan to leave customers out in the cold, but
I do suggest that they plan to constantly introduce proprietary
standards *because they are proprietary*, and for no other reason. If
you can review the market history of Shimano and conclude otherwise, I
suggest that you just aren't looking very hard.

Introducing, and then abandoning, proprietary standards inevitably
leads to consumers being cheated of product support. Right now the
story is unfolding with Octalink, but it could just as well be about
Positron, or 10mm pitch chain and sprockets, or 2mm brake cables.
Auto-D, Coasting, and the peculiar axle-mounted Saint derailleur (to
name a few) are on the slate for the same treatment in the future.

I posted here a little while ago about how and why I think Shimano
innovates. It ends up that a lot of their big ideas go over badly and
end up in remainder bins fast (AX pedal eyes, we hardly new ye...).

But that's overshadowed by their big ideas which have ended up more or
less owning the marketplace. And frequently it's not so much that
Shimano comes up with the idea, as that they get it right (SIS versus
Positron versus a few other proto-indexing systems, STI brifters, and
others).

Given this, Shimano is pretty focused on throwing a lot of new ideas at
the marketplace. I mean, for example, we can all say Coasting is good,
Coasting is bad, but what it comes down to is whether any bike buyers
actually want it.

Right now, nobody knows. Well, maybe the manufacturers are now seeing
early sales numbers and order requests come in.

It is also worth noting the difference between the degrees of orphanage
from part to part. AX cranks aren't maximally orphaned, because a simple
adapter turns them into standard cranks (AX pedals, very orphaned...).
10 mm pitch chain is so abandoned that the entire drivetrain is
essentially a non-maintainable curiosity (eBay those fresh chains early
and often, kids). But something like Octalink (which is NOT orphaned at
this point...) is at worst about the replacement of either the crank or
the BB when the other fails, and knowing Shimano, the BBs will be
available for some time after the last Octalink crank exits the catalog
(which has NOT happened yet).

Octalink is an interesting study, too: it was a response to a
widely-acknowledged problem, which you know as well as anyone. It was a
bad solution, like the cupholders in a VW New Beetle (sorry, I shouldn't
start...). So they tried to fix it with v2. Which also didn't work.

At this point, one may question the quality of the engineers quite
fairly. And you've pointed out there's a strong smell of not wanting to
pay money to Bullseye et al for their patents (let's not contemplate the
continuing situation where Shimano does not make threadless headsets,
which seems to be of a similar nature).

But they tried again. And it looks like Hollowtech II is in with a
chance.

Meanwhile, the rest of the cycling world tried to solve the same
problem. They came up with ISIS, which had grave bearing issues. The
remaining ISIS makers all claim to have worked around those problems
(some by putting in four bearings, others by, well, claiming their
bearings are really good...), but most just went and developed their own
external-bearing designs.

Of course, the irony is that this panoply of wacky BBs came about
because, as you and I agree, component makers were unwilling to just
come out and declare the current BB shell standards obsolete (except
maybe BMX, which could be our new BB to end all BBs), though that would
effectively orphan...virtually every road bike ever made!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

From the consumer standpoint, I don't think it really matters whether

they are planning to screw you, or instead they just adopt a marketing
approach that consistently screws you as a side effect. The correct
strategy for dealing with it is the same: don't buy Shimano's [censored].

One of the reasons Shimano gets a lot of [censored] for this is because they
have had the temerity to survive their bad ideas. Nobody will sell you
an Accushift I cassette, shifter, or derailer. Parts for your
Browning-licensed Suntour drivetrain may be found from the same number
of suppliers. Small parts for Mektronic and Zap shifters are hard to
come by.

The number of component companies that were born, had one bad idea, and
died is enough to fill an Interbike show.

There's some merit to the idea that sensible, conservative parts junkies
(er...) will wait a few years to discover what works and what doesn't.

Full disclosure: I ride an Octalink-equipped bike, my racer. I do so
because I got a Dura Ace crank and most of an Ultegra (9-speed)
drivetrain (including BB) for $100, and thus am sanguine about the
matter of replacing either the crank, BB, or both.

--
Ryan Cousineau [email hidden] http://www.wiredcola.com/
"I don't want kids who are thinking about going into mathematics
to think that they have to take drugs to succeed." -Paul Erdos