Hamilton

Dan Connelly said:

It's been mentioned here before that if Hamilton had come clean at the
start, admitted to homogeneous doping which somehow went awry, then done
his time, none of this could affect him.

Then again, he may be innocent.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/276bcfd541a1ce79

Bob 'Pays Attention to Irony' Schwartz

On May 1, 4:20 pm, Dan Connelly <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m>

Quoted message said:

It's been mentioned here before that if Hamilton had come clean at the start, admitted to homogeneous doping

You can't fault him for preferring his blood homogenized. Otherwise,
it gets all lumpy when you stir it into your coffee.

-rj

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...

shane said:

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers,

Hamilton was suspended for blood doping at the Vuelta. If they have
evidence he doped at another time than it is a separate offense and he
can be suspended again. I'm pretty sure USAC or the UCI clarified
this when his name first came up in OP last year. Double jeopardy
would be if they suspended him for the Vuelta infraction again.

If they put somebody in jail for murder and then find out he may have
killed someone else as well, he doesn't get a free pass on the second
murder.

Quoted message said:

shane said:

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers,

Quoted message said:

Hamilton was suspended for blood doping at the Vuelta. If they have
evidence he doped at another time than it is a separate offense and he
can be suspended again. I'm pretty sure USAC or the UCI clarified
this when his name first came up in OP last year. Double jeopardy
would be if they suspended him for the Vuelta infraction again.

Quoted message said:

If they put somebody in jail for murder and then find out he may have
killed someone else as well, he doesn't get a free pass on the second
murder.

In Europe you would only be punished for the crime with the highest
punishment.

--
Morten Reippuert Knudsen :-) <http://blog.reippuert.dk>

Merlin Works CR-3/2.5 & Campagnolo Chorus 2007.

Doesnt look like the Italian try at the puerto investigation would
prove that Hamilton was
clearly doping for another race besides the Vuelta, so the tinkoff/
Giro suspension
for now seems like double jeopardy.

Quoted message said:

shane said:

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers,

Hamilton was suspended for blood doping at the Vuelta. If they have
evidence he doped at another time than it is a separate offense and he
can be suspended again. I'm pretty sure USAC or the UCI clarified
this when his name first came up in OP last year. Double jeopardy
would be if they suspended him for the Vuelta infraction again.

If they put somebody in jail for murder and then find out he may have
killed someone else as well, he doesn't get a free pass on the second
murder.

In article
<[email hidden]>,

shane said:

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...

As in ping-ponging std's.

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

shane said:

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...

As in ping-ponging std's.

--
Michael Press

How will Tyler pass drug tests for the Giro?? What about his dead twin
coarsing through his veins?????

duped no more.

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

?shane said:

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...

Quoted message said:

As in ping-ponging std's.

Quoted message said:

--
Michael Press

How will Tyler pass drug tests for the Giro?? What about his dead twin
coarsing through his veins?????

I predict that one day you will grow a brain. Hamilton didn't suggest
that he had a twin, he provided an explanation of how the test could
show positive while not being so. As it turned out we're still
wondering how he could have tested positive since he was supposedly
using his own blood. Crossed bags with Oscar? They don't have the same
blood type.

After seeing the way WADA and the UCI are doing things my guess is
that they simply fixed the result to show what they wanted to show
because they were suspicious.

I'm quite sure that there is a lot of doping going on. But if you have
to resort to lying in order to do something about it you might as well
do nothing at all.

Quoted message said:

As it turned out we're still
wondering how he could have tested positive since he was supposedly
using his own blood. Crossed bags with Oscar? They don't have the same
blood type.

Do we know this for certain? I don't recall ever reading that
anywhere. The bag-crossing
seemed one of the more plausible explanations.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As it turned out we're still
wondering how he could have tested positive since he was supposedly
using his own blood. Crossed bags with Oscar? They don't have the same
blood type.

Do we know this for certain? I don't recall ever reading that
anywhere. The bag-crossing
seemed one of the more plausible explanations.

I'm amazed the blood type of the two riders has never been disclosed, along with the blood type associated with the minority component of each's positive blood sample.

It seems no brainer. A 2-way match could be fairly conclusive.

Dan

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

?shane said:

I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...

Quoted message said:

As in ping-ponging std's.

Quoted message said:

--
Michael Press

How will Tyler pass drug tests for the Giro?? What about his dead twin
coarsing through his veins?????

duped no more.

That was the best defense in a long time. I'm waiting on Basso's
following a similar storyline. Although you've got to give Tyler some
credit for riding two tours, each with a broken collarbone. Then
again, with the drugs he was probably taking he could have been riding
with a severed arm and he still wouldn't have felt it :-D

"Dan Connelly" <d_j_c_o_n_n_e_l@y_a_h_o_o_._c_o_m> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

As it turned out we're still
wondering how he could have tested positive since he was supposedly
using his own blood. Crossed bags with Oscar? They don't have the same
blood type.

Do we know this for certain? I don't recall ever reading that
anywhere. The bag-crossing
seemed one of the more plausible explanations.

I'm amazed the blood type of the two riders has never been disclosed,
along with the blood type associated with the minority component of each's
positive blood sample.

It seems no brainer. A 2-way match could be fairly conclusive.

I thought that there was some disclosure somewhere last year and that's why
we all stopped discussing it?

"paolo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

?shane <[email hidden]> wrote:
> I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
> double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
> seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
> reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...

Quoted message said:

As in ping-ponging std's.

Quoted message said:

--
Michael Press

How will Tyler pass drug tests for the Giro?? What about his dead twin
coarsing through his veins?????

duped no more.

That was the best defense in a long time. I'm waiting on Basso's
following a similar storyline. Although you've got to give Tyler some
credit for riding two tours, each with a broken collarbone. Then
again, with the drugs he was probably taking he could have been riding
with a severed arm and he still wouldn't have felt it :-D

Since when did blood boosting stop pain? Or are you suggesting that WADA and
the UCI tests are so great that they can tell if you have someone else's
blood in you but they can't find painkillers?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Michael Press said:

In article
<[email hidden]>,
?shane <[email hidden]> wrote:
> I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
> double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
> seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
> reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...
As in ping-ponging std's.
--
Michael Press

How will Tyler pass drug tests for the Giro?? What about his dead twin
coarsing through his veins?????

I predict that one day you will grow a brain. Hamilton didn't suggest
that he had a twin, he provided an explanation of how the test could
show positive while not being so.

Well, I wasn't at the hearing so I probably have no right to comment BUT:

http://tinyurl.com/8utpc

Fred Fredburger said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

On May 2, 6:23?pm, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:

> In article
> <[email hidden]>,
> ?shane <[email hidden]> wrote:
>> I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
>> double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
>> seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
>> reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...
> As in ping-ponging std's.
> --
> Michael Press
How will Tyler pass drug tests for the Giro?? What about his dead twin
coarsing through his veins?????

I predict that one day you will grow a brain. Hamilton didn't suggest
that he had a twin, he provided an explanation of how the test could
show positive while not being so.

Well, I wasn't at the hearing so I probably have no right to comment BUT:

http://tinyurl.com/8utpc

OTOH, in this interview:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/interviews/?id=tyler_hamilton05

Hamilton says something that sounds a lot like what you said ("examples
we provided while making our case"😉 but he then indicates that the
possibility of having a chimera should be enough to clear him when he says:

"I can never prove whether or not I had a twin in utero. No one can. And
USADA agreed that it is impossible to prove that someone is chimeric. It
was difficult to understand how USADA could argue, and the Panel could
accept, that it was somehow my burden to prove something (chimerism)
that USADA had agreed was impossible to prove. "

I recall numerous discussions about the burden of proof in these cases,
That seems to be Hamilton's point. But I can see how it could be
interpreted otherwise too. Especially if I was inclined to believe
Hamilton's guilt I could convince myself that Hamilton has resorted to a
crazy, unprovable defense.

Tom Kunich said:

Since when did blood boosting stop pain? Or are you suggesting that WADA and the UCI tests are so great that they can tell if you have someone else's blood in you but they can't find painkillers?

Did you see the list of doping products he was taking? There was a whole lot more than just blood doping. And he never tested positive to any of those other illegal products.

"Fred Fredburger" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Fred Fredburger said:

Quoted message said:

On May 2, 8:19 pm, [email hidden] wrote:
> On May 2, 6:23?pm, Michael Press <[email hidden]> wrote:
>
>> In article
>> <[email hidden]>,
>> ?shane <[email hidden]> wrote:
>>> I dont think it would have mattered, they seem to like applying
>>> double and triple jeopardy to bike racers, at least from what weve
>>> seen with the resurrection of Puerto..Spain closed the case, italy
>>> reopens, if it closes in italy, then the french will re open, etc...
>> As in ping-ponging std's.
>> --
>> Michael Press
> How will Tyler pass drug tests for the Giro?? What about his dead twin
> coarsing through his veins?????

I predict that one day you will grow a brain. Hamilton didn't suggest
that he had a twin, he provided an explanation of how the test could
show positive while not being so.

Well, I wasn't at the hearing so I probably have no right to comment BUT:

http://tinyurl.com/8utpc

OTOH, in this interview:
http://www.cyclingnews.com/riders/2005/interviews/?id=tyler_hamilton05

Hamilton says something that sounds a lot like what you said ("examples we
provided while making our case"😉 but he then indicates that the
possibility of having a chimera should be enough to clear him when he
says:

"I can never prove whether or not I had a twin in utero. No one can. And
USADA agreed that it is impossible to prove that someone is chimeric. It
was difficult to understand how USADA could argue, and the Panel could
accept, that it was somehow my burden to prove something (chimerism) that
USADA had agreed was impossible to prove. "

I recall numerous discussions about the burden of proof in these cases,
That seems to be Hamilton's point. But I can see how it could be
interpreted otherwise too. Especially if I was inclined to believe
Hamilton's guilt I could convince myself that Hamilton has resorted to a
crazy, unprovable defense.

Crazy and unproven? Isn't the basis of the American justice system that you
have to prove guilt and not defend against assertion?

"patch70" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

Since when did blood boosting stop pain? Or are you suggesting that WADA
and the UCI tests are so great that they can tell if you have someone
else's blood in you but they can't find painkillers?

Did you see the list of doping products he was taking? There was a
whole lot more than just blood doping. And he never tested positive to
any of those other illegal products.

Ahh, another guilt by assertion poster boy.