Over reaching???

BlueJersey said:

I think I have over reached??? About 4 days ago I finished my 6 weeks block of high tempo workout. Totaling 23 hours at 83% to 85% FT. Another 5 hours at mid tempo intensity. Roughly 500TSS a week. Sunday was the last day of the 6 weeks block. On Monday morning, my knees were very sored and somewhat stiff. I felt a sensation of fatigue all over my body. I began to develop this annoying cough also. I also felt sleepy as well for the entire day. The condition didn't deteriorate. For the last couple of days I felt I have a slight cold. Not all that feeling sleepy. This morning I felt slightly better. I don't need to cough as much and legs are feeling OK.

You mention using TSS.

How has your TSB been running?

I have found, through running my power files from '05 through the PMC, that my limit is about 2 weeks in negative TSB without coming up for air.

Jim

You could be coming down with an illness. i went through a similar situation a few weeks ago. i felt ok but very tired and heavy legs. at the time i was also under my normal weight and had no appetite. when my appetite came back i began eating like hell the last few weeks and now i feel great. there seems to be a trend in my diary. when i am under my ride weight i ride like [censored], when full i punch out some good #s.

ATL from 9/26, 43tss/day to this past Sunday, 75tss/day.

otb4evr said:

You mention using TSS. Highest TSB within 6 weeks is 1.

How has your TSB been running?

I have found, through running my power files from '05 through the PMC, that my limit is about 2 weeks in negative TSB without coming up for air.

Jim

What has your CTL been compared to current CTL, ie what has the ramp rate been? You may just need a little break and you may have just picked up a viral infection somewhere. If your workload is appropriate and you pick up an infection from your kids or whatever, you will feel off for a while.
Scott

Highest was 65tss/day around July. 60 around August.

gimpy_calfee said:

What has your CTL been compared to current CTL, ie what has the ramp rate been? You may just need a little break and you may have just picked up a viral infection somewhere. If your workload is appropriate and you pick up an infection from your kids or whatever, you will feel off for a while.
Scott

Highest TSB is 1 within 6 weeks.

otb4evr said:

You mention using TSS.

How has your TSB been running?

I have found, through running my power files from '05 through the PMC, that my limit is about 2 weeks in negative TSB without coming up for air.

Jim

Well, it looks to me like your rampiing up your TSS at a rate of increase of 5/week (if the ATLs you listed have gradually increased over the 6 weeks you mentioned). That seems reasonable. If it was me I'd just take 2-3 days off the bike and rest. I suspect you would be back in the saddle, so to speak, then. But, keep in mind that I'm not infrequently wrong.:eek:

I have been off the bike for 4 days already. Let's see how things go on Sat. May even skip any riding on Sunday. Planning to start off again on Monday though.

gimpy_calfee said:

Well, it looks to me like your rampiing up your TSS at a rate of increase of 5/week (if the ATLs you listed have gradually increased over the 6 weeks you mentioned). That seems reasonable. If it was me I'd just take 2-3 days off the bike and rest. I suspect you would be back in the saddle, so to speak, then. But, keep in mind that I'm not infrequently wrong.:eek:

BlueJersey said:

I have been off the bike for 4 days already. Let's see how things go on Sat. May even skip any riding on Sunday. Planning to start off again on Monday though.

Your CTLs and ATLs seem pretty moderate. Hopefully it's just a bug going around. 🙂

gimpy_calfee said:

Well, it looks to me like your rampiing up your TSS at a rate of increase of 5/week (if the ATLs you listed have gradually increased over the 6 weeks you mentioned). That seems reasonable.

It's not a sky-high rate of increase, but then again it's not exactly a slow, gradual build, either. IOW, keep that up long enough w/o "coming up for air", and a melt-down of some form or another is not only possible, but even seems likely.

acoggan said:

It's not a sky-high rate of increase, but then again it's not exactly a slow, gradual build, either. IOW, keep that up long enough w/o "coming up for air", and a melt-down of some form or another is not only possible, but even seems likely.

Melt-down? Oh yes, after increasing CTL at a rate of 10/week for almost a month - I've experienced that very thing [img]cyclingforums.comeek.gifOpen ↗[/img]

I have taken a few days off and rethought my whole training approach to be much more gradual and I think, successful in the long-term.

BlueJersey said:

Highest TSB is 1 within 6 weeks.

There's your answer right there, I'd say.

normZurawski said:

There's your answer right there, I'd say.

😕 I can't imagine TSB needing to go positive during a build period of any length. A -10 to -15 TSB produces a nice, slow CTL buildup which can be maintained for quite a long time (probably indefinitely, if desired). If one prefers the "3 weeks of hell - 1 week off" approach, however, then I could understand a desire to see positive TSBs at certain points.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Melt-down? Oh yes, after increasing CTL at a rate of 10/week for almost a month - I've experienced that very thing [img]cyclingforums.comeek.gifOpen ↗[/img]

I have taken a few days off and rethought my whole training approach to be much more gradual and I think, successful in the long-term.

Like you being new to this and very eager to see progress I was pushing hard as well. Last week I started to have sinus problems and thought to keep pushing because I've trained through illnesses many times before, but then the typical signs of over reaching for me is swelling of the lymph glands under my arm. I ended up hurting my lower back anyway so I've had this week off the bike due the injury, but I realized in my eagerness I need a more gradual plan of attack.

frenchyge said:

😕 I can't imagine TSB needing to go positive during a build period of any length. A -10 to -15 TSB produces a nice, slow CTL buildup which can be maintained for quite a long time (probably indefinitely, if desired). If one prefers the "3 weeks of hell - 1 week off" approach, however, then I could understand a desire to see positive TSBs at certain points.

I don't know if you can say it needs to or doesn't need to. I'd imagine for each rider you're going to have a different load which is maintainable for each person. As acoggan says above, a melt-down is likely given enough time without coming up for air for anyone. Lucy has first hand experience there but a +10 TSS/week build is outside the recommended 3-8 range, so it's not entirely applicable.

Must also have a lot to do with history, sleep habits, time of year, and [censored] like that. Same sort of disclaimers as with any of these kinds of discussions, of course. But sore/stiff knees suggests to me that the OP is beyond what his body can normally handle. Combine that with a 6 week TSB hole and I think he just needs a rest.

Felt_Rider said:

Like you being new to this and very eager to see progress I was pushing hard as well. Last week I started to have sinus problems and thought to keep pushing because I've trained through illnesses many times before, but then the typical signs of over reaching for me is swelling of the lymph glands under my arm. I ended up hurting my lower back anyway so I've had this week off the bike due the injury, but I realized in my eagerness I need a more gradual plan of attack.

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties, that is unfortunate. As ironic as it may sound, I think a great deal of good can come out of this experience. I believe that, of course, would be in the form of more thoughtfulness and realistic planning in the long-term.

Unlike you, I did not feel or encounter sickness per se, but a number of symptoms including:

• I had constant, persistent, and increasing fatigue as well as soreness.
  
• My motivation was severly lacking & I dreaded riding, especially the trainer.
  
• My ability to get a decent amount of sleep was very compromised, despite being tired.
  
• I found my performance and metrics were starting to diminish, no matter how much effort I put into a given ride.
  
• Soreness and pain in my joints.
  

Now after 5 days of having the bicycle stored away, relaxing, and distracting myself - I am anxious and upbeat about starting again - in a much more sensible fashion aimed at doing well not just now, but for a long time to come.

frenchyge said:

😕 I can't imagine TSB needing to go positive during a build period of any length. A -10 to -15 TSB produces a nice, slow CTL buildup which can be maintained for quite a long time (probably indefinitely, if desired). If one prefers the "3 weeks of hell - 1 week off" approach, however, then I could understand a desire to see positive TSBs at certain points.

I think you nailed it with your last comment: whether you need to "come up for air" periodically or not may depend on the overall pattern of your training, i.e., do you like to go deep into Dave Harris' pain cave and then come back out again, or do you prefer just hanging around close to the entrance where you can still see a bit of daylight. That's why I think it's generally better to focus on the rate of increase in CTL (a long-term measure) than on TSB per se, at least conceptually.

On the upside to this at least everyone posting their agonies is due to pushing the effort. We just pushed a little too much.🙂

Fortunately I am mentally eager so I am not suffering burn out, but I need to pull back on the reigns a little and let my body catch up to what I think it should be doing.

normZurawski said:

IAs acoggan says above, a melt-down is likely given enough time without coming up for air for anyone.

That's not really what I meant. My point was that a rate-of-rise of +5 TSS/d/wk is around the maximum of what many seem to be able to tolerate, at least for more than a month or so at a time. Thus, if you try to surf that wave for a long period of time, you either need to be 1) lucky and/or 2) have a stronger than average "constitution" to avoid, e.g., getting sick at one point or another. If you're not, and you want to avoid a melt-down, then you need to keep the rate-of-rise at or below that value...which means either "coming up for air" periodically or simply not constantly pushing as far beyond your limits.