Over reaching???

Felt_Rider said:

On the upside to this at least everyone posting their agonies is due to pushing the effort. We just pushed a little too much.🙂

Fortunately I am mentally eager so I am not suffering burn out, but I need to pull back on the reigns a little and let my body catch up to what I think it should be doing.

What sorts of TSS numbers were you doing before you had problems?

RapDaddyo said:

What sorts of TSS numbers were you doing before you had problems?

I haven't started tracking data yet.
I've been using an unmonitored spin bike, but I can be honest with myself and know that I have been pushing hard.

After Christmas I will start using the KK trainer with power computer.

What I am doing is what I have stated on other threads "not good to do" is juggling progressive resistance training and cycling. This is somewhat a learning experience for me and it is sort of a question posed by Dr. Mel Siff.

Can the two be done together?

For the moment I say it cannot because I am a big believer in specificity, but I ain't scared to look into the question. (since I label myself as recreational I can play these games) 😄

Currently my training:
M-F 45 minutes of interval on the spin bike & 45 minutes of weight training (one body part per day except on Friday I train biceps and triceps)
Saturday about a 3 to 4 hour group ride.
Sunday about a 2 hour ride (or my wife and I go for a 5 mile hike)

I really wish I had the equipment before hand to track the progress and thanks to you guys for helping a weightlifter understand how and why to use a PM to track data. I was thinking of the endurance training aspect in a much more simplier procress before. My body composition is changing for the positive. I've dropped about 5 lbs and I am now around 8% BF and hope to be around 5% in the spring with the goal of seeing how much lean mass I can hold under the stress. When will it get catabolic?🙂 Or will it?🙂

For those unfamiliar with the late Dr. Siff's webpage, he poses questions to get a thought process started.

Dr. Siff Puzzles and Paradoxes

Endurance Paradox

Specificity Paradox

acoggan said:

That's not really what I meant. My point was that a rate-of-rise of +5 TSS/d/wk is around the maximum of what many seem to be able to tolerate, at least for more than a month or so at a time. Thus, if you try to surf that wave for a long period of time, you either need to be 1) lucky and/or 2) have a stronger than average "constitution" to avoid, e.g., getting sick at one point or another. If you're not, and you want to avoid a melt-down, then you need to keep the rate-of-rise at or below that value...which means either "coming up for air" periodically or simply not constantly pushing as far beyond your limits.

acoggan said:

That's not really what I meant. My point was that a rate-of-rise of +5 TSS/d/wk is around the maximum of what many seem to be able to tolerate, at least for more than a month or so at a time. Thus, if you try to surf that wave for a long period of time, you either need to be 1) lucky and/or 2) have a stronger than average "constitution" to avoid, e.g., getting sick at one point or another. If you're not, and you want to avoid a melt-down, then you need to keep the rate-of-rise at or below that value...which means either "coming up for air" periodically or simply not constantly pushing as far beyond your limits.

Have people found the 3-8 build rate to be robust even when they are relatively untrained compared to PB's? I ask because I have limited power data and haven't been able to train particularly well these last few months due to illness and academic commitments. I will soon be back to having up to 25 hours a week to train and I want to avoid overdoing it, but also build as fast as I is faesible without being stupid. Without having power data, it's a little hard to say, but I would guess I have trained at ~120TSS/day CTL in '05 and at the start of '06. I would also say I have been guilty of trying to ramp up my training far, far too quickly and this has led to illness before. When I tested back then I had FT ~365-370W. At the moment I have FT~345W, lower 5MP, and the same pathetic AC/NMP I have always had. My CTL is hovering around 60 as I try to finish my exams. I am wondering if I can ramp a little quicker because I am so far below where I would normally be at, or if this can only lead to trouble? I have a full season of tours and road races next year and want to build my CTL and FT right up so I can cope with them. I have a dream (I mean 12 month plan to help reach my goals) - FT > 5w/kg. (Oh yeah, and AC > 250j/kg haha)

By the way, I normally like the 2 weeks building up to the hurt locker, 1 week trapped inside, bit of recovery approach to training. That said, I am open to other ideas.

RS

acoggan said:

That's not really what I meant. My point was that a rate-of-rise of +5 TSS/d/wk is around the maximum of what many seem to be able to tolerate, at least for more than a month or so at a time. Thus, if you try to surf that wave for a long period of time, you either need to be 1) lucky and/or 2) have a stronger than average "constitution" to avoid, e.g., getting sick at one point or another. If you're not, and you want to avoid a melt-down, then you need to keep the rate-of-rise at or below that value...which means either "coming up for air" periodically or simply not constantly pushing as far beyond your limits.

I'm not being intentionally obtuse or anything here. But I don't really see the difference in what we're saying.

A picture's worth a thousand words.

Alex Simmons said:

A picture's worth a thousand words.

Alex,

That looks remarkably similar to mine from last year...

I was sick for 8 days after the crash in Jan. I didn't get sick in April, but I was completely uninterested in riding...

The PMC is fantastic... Being able to go back and find out the "why" is invaluable and has helped me plan future "what if"s...

Jim

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I'm sorry to hear about your difficulties, that is unfortunate. As ironic as it may sound, I think a great deal of good can come out of this experience. I believe that, of course, would be in the form of more thoughtfulness and realistic planning in the long-term.

Unlike you, I did not feel or encounter sickness per se, but a number of symptoms including:

• I had constant, persistent, and increasing fatigue as well as soreness.
  
• My motivation was severly lacking & I dreaded riding, especially the trainer.
  
• My ability to get a decent amount of sleep was very compromised, despite being tired.
  
• I found my performance and metrics were starting to diminish, no matter how much effort I put into a given ride.
  
• Soreness and pain in my joints.
  

Now after 5 days of having the bicycle stored away, relaxing, and distracting myself - I am anxious and upbeat about starting again - in a much more sensible fashion aimed at doing well not just now, but for a long time to come.

How are you bouncing back? A more reasonable ramp rate in mind now? It has sure worked for me.

Alex Simmons said:

How are you bouncing back? A more reasonable ramp rate in mind now? It has sure worked for me.

Hi...

I am definitely fresh and full of energy, which was I had hoped for. My legs are not entirely back though, I think it is going to take a bit of time to get to the level I was at previously. On the other hand, my sprint feels very strong though and seems to have suffered no ill effects.

In fairness, I went way too hard yesterday while doing a 60-min TT up the usual mountain. As I toiled miserably, somewhere about 2500m with 30km/h winds making the -2 C temps even more icy, I thought to myself, this is pure and simple drudgery!

Days like that I long for a nice, warm indoor track where I can sprint, eat some cake, spin easy, sprint - repeat! 😄

Today was better, hitting 55-60 km/hr while drag racing cars is always a favorite pastime..🙂

Anyway, I'm thinking a ramp rate of 3 CTL/week is what I'd like to aim for. While I think cyclingpeaks is excellent for analysis of files, I tend to not think of it as useful for planning training in advance.

Do you know a spreadsheet or something along those lines for planning a CTL ramp? I've heard of them, but haven't seen any in actuality.😕

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Do you know a spreadsheet or something along those lines for planning a CTL ramp? I've heard of them, but haven't seen any in actuality.😕

Yes but not at liberty to share. Search "Homebrew tstwkt" - pretty sure some guys there worked on something like this already.

Agree CP is primarily designed as a post analysis tool. Forward planning may become another tool in the Training Peaks quiver at some stage.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I think it is going to take a bit of time to get to the level I was at previously. On the other hand, my sprint feels very strong though and seems to have suffered no ill effects.

I'm guessing your sprint will be a strength in your target events next year if you don't do one single sprint between now and then. It's very easy to fall into the trap of training one's strengths. IIRC, your target events are going to require a pretty substantial increase in FTP to even be positioned to use your sprint. It may be fun to sprint (because it is a strength), but I'd say you're wasting your time training it now. Now, if you have changed your target events, that's a different story. Grinding out those L3s and L4s week after week gets a bit tedious, but they will pay off big time. It's hard to describe the feeling you get the first time you finish a hard RR with the lead group, but I can tell you it is pretty exhilirating (regardless of what happens in the sprint) and I'll bet that not one single RRer on this forum has forgotten his/her first time.😄

Alex Simmons said:

Yes but not at liberty to share. Search "Homebrew tstwkt" - pretty sure some guys there worked on something like this already.

Agree CP is primarily designed as a post analysis tool. Forward planning may become another tool in the Training Peaks quiver at some stage.

Ack! Alex, I have decided that this whole notion of you being a lead-out man is nothing but a [censored] and bull story, when in reality you are some sort of secret agent [img]cyclingforums.comcool.gifOpen ↗[/img]

RapDaddyo said:

I'm guessing your sprint will be a strength in your target events next year if you don't do one single sprint between now and then. It's very easy to fall into the trap of training one's strengths. IIRC, your target events are going to require a pretty substantial increase in FTP to even be positioned to use your sprint. It may be fun to sprint (because it is a strength), but I'd say you're wasting your time training it now. Now, if you have changed your target events, that's a different story. Grinding out those L3s and L4s week after week gets a bit tedious, but they will pay off big time. It's hard to describe the feeling you get the first time you finish a hard RR with the lead group, but I can tell you it is pretty exhilirating (regardless of what happens in the sprint) and I'll bet that not one single RRer on this forum has forgotten his/her first time.😄

Well everything you've said is true nor am I disputing it. However the caveat is, I sprint for fun once I've completed all my Level 4 work or on days when I have no L4 planned. I'm not cutting out threshold work or compromising it.

So I prioritize the latter, and on days like today, just my second one back, I rode a fairly standard SST ride with a bunch of sprints from stoplights. I enjoy sprinting quite a bit and after being in the so-called 'pain cave' for several weeks, it was a nice breath of fresh air.

I haven't changed my target events, though I admit, being chilled to the bone at 10,000 feet yesterday sure had me contemplating it for a bit! [img]cyclingforums.combiggrin.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Oh and I'm sure it is a neat experience to finish with the lead group. I look forward to it, though in fairness, the small fields here make that somewhat unlikely, but anything is possible 🙂

RapDaddyo said:

I'm guessing your sprint will be a strength in your target events next year if you don't do one single sprint between now and then. It's very easy to fall into the trap of training one's strengths. IIRC, your target events are going to require a pretty substantial increase in FTP to even be positioned to use your sprint. It may be fun to sprint (because it is a strength), but I'd say you're wasting your time training it now. Now, if you have changed your target events, that's a different story. Grinding out those L3s and L4s week after week gets a bit tedious, but they will pay off big time. It's hard to describe the feeling you get the first time you finish a hard RR with the lead group, but I can tell you it is pretty exhilirating (regardless of what happens in the sprint) and I'll bet that not one single RRer on this forum has forgotten his/her first time.😄

even more exhilirating when you ARE the lead group, and it's your first time even doing a RR. you can see why i got hooked.

L3 and L4 stuff is definitely bread and butter, but if it burns you out and you can't stay consistent, not only do you not make progress, but you don't even have a good time to show for it. if sprinting with local traffic now and again keeps you riding, by all means do it year round.

as to the OP, it's hard to tell if you were over reaching or just got sick. looking at my PMC, i see that i tend to build at no greater than 8 points for any sustained time. no scheduled rest either. just go out and start ramping up and listening to the sensations. i know when a workout will be fruitless based on sensations in the legs and corresponding wattage. generally i'll get in 3-5 good training days in a row, consisting of 100-200% of my CTL, before a recovery ride, which is usually about 50% of CTL. 3-5 days building, 1 day of active recovery, for several weeks, until that 1 day "off" only nets a TSB increase up to about negative 30, and then it's time for 2-3 easy days to get the TSB back around 0.

so, again, a max TSB of 1 over a six week period doesn't indicate over-reaching. it'd be easier to analyze if you could post a picture of your chart.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

I haven't changed my target events, though I admit, being chilled to the bone at 10,000 feet yesterday sure had me contemplating it for a bit! [img]cyclingforums.combiggrin.gifOpen ↗[/img]

There's no doubt about it, these next few months are the tough ones. It's cold, the days are short, progress seems to take forever, and on and on. But, these are in fact the critical months, especially if you are steady and consitent. You have no reason to push it. In fact, you don't need to ride a single minute at FTP. If you did nothing but 91-95%FTP from now to March you would make huge progress in FTP. I think that in a few months when you begin to have some real power beyond 10 minutes you'll be just amazed. Instead of feeling as though you're going to die at the top of your climb, you'll find yourself accelerating. I had one of those rides yesterday with a new guy in my club. This kid has a lot of power and yesterday the ride was pretty short (40 miles) so I decided to feel him out a bit. At the end of every long climb, I ramped it up to ~450W for the last push over the top and when I looked back at the crest of each climb this kid was right there, glued to my wheel. I never did shake him, but I sure enjoyed trying. You will reach that point and I can assure you that rides are 100% more fun with some power.

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Oh and I'm sure it is a neat experience to finish with the lead group. I look forward to it, though in fairness, the small fields here make that somewhat unlikely, but anything is possible 🙂

You will!😎

Here you go. 😄 I just looked back to my last year off season training. This past 6 weeks I have logged 2x as much training at 80% to 85% FT than I did last year for 2 months. 😄 Legs are feeling normal again and really want to ride though. Still having this nagging cough. Been off the bike for 7 days now. Looks like a trainer time tomorrow since it will rain. Not sure if I want to go hardcore and riding at high tempo for 2+ hours tomorrow.

joemw said:

even more exhilirating when you ARE the lead group, and it's your first time even doing a RR. you can see why i got hooked.

L3 and L4 stuff is definitely bread and butter, but if it burns you out and you can't stay consistent, not only do you not make progress, but you don't even have a good time to show for it. if sprinting with local traffic now and again keeps you riding, by all means do it year round.

as to the OP, it's hard to tell if you were over reaching or just got sick. looking at my PMC, i see that i tend to build at no greater than 8 points for any sustained time. no scheduled rest either. just go out and start ramping up and listening to the sensations. i know when a workout will be fruitless based on sensations in the legs and corresponding wattage. generally i'll get in 3-5 good training days in a row, consisting of 100-200% of my CTL, before a recovery ride, which is usually about 50% of CTL. 3-5 days building, 1 day of active recovery, for several weeks, until that 1 day "off" only nets a TSB increase up to about negative 30, and then it's time for 2-3 easy days to get the TSB back around 0.

so, again, a max TSB of 1 over a six week period doesn't indicate over-reaching. it'd be easier to analyze if you could post a picture of your chart.

RapDaddyo said:

There's no doubt about it, these next few months are the tough ones. It's cold, the days are short, progress seems to take forever, and on and on. But, these are in fact the critical months, especially if you are steady and consitent. You have no reason to push it. In fact, you don't need to ride a single minute at FTP. If you did nothing but 91-95%FTP from now to March you would make huge progress in FTP. I think that in a few months when you begin to have some real power beyond 10 minutes you'll be just amazed. Instead of feeling as though you're going to die at the top of your climb, you'll find yourself accelerating. I had one of those rides yesterday with a new guy in my club. This kid has a lot of power and yesterday the ride was pretty short (40 miles) so I decided to feel him out a bit. At the end of every long climb, I ramped it up to ~450W for the last push over the top and when I looked back at the crest of each climb this kid was right there, glued to my wheel. I never did shake him, but I sure enjoyed trying. You will reach that point and I can assure you that rides are 100% more fun with some power.

Well they definitely are critical, and even that might be an understatement. There's no way I can snooze over the winter and then expect to pick it up in spring.

And yes, it is very hard now! For all the reasons you said about weather, daylight, etc - though you can add my exceptionally high degree of aversion to the cold. Just breathing today, while riding, was a challenge.

Where most people, according to the book anyway, will typically be 'all-rounders' my situation is not such obviously. In some ways I think the 'all-rounder' profile is easier mentally - meaning that no one form of training or another is markedly harder (or easier). Whereas I find sprinting ridiculously easy and endurance work to be nothing short of torture!

Then I am biased, but I freely admit that...🙂

I think I am reaching a healthier balance now in riding and planning. I've got a target number of Level 4 work every week, and the rest is SST along with sprints. I found, and subsequently went too over my limits of the amount of Level 4 riding I could handle. I've scaled it to a value I'm comfortable with and that I can sustain. Doing sprints and SST rides keep me motivated and having fun, so they are here to stay 🙂

So about your young friend, does he race locally? If not, perhaps he should!

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

Ack! Alex, I have decided that this whole notion of you being a lead-out man is nothing but a [censored] and bull story, when in reality you are some sort of secret agent [img]cyclingforums.comcool.gifOpen ↗[/img]

Dang, cover blown..... 007 out

Lucy_Aspenwind said:

So about your young friend, does he race locally? If not, perhaps he should!

He has never raced, but I'm working on him. I want him to enter a 3-day stage race here at the end of January. I'll post a couple of club rides on the RR course to get him comfortable with it. It's got two climbs, a 10-mile and an 8-mile, and can be a bit intimidating. And maybe teach him to corner and accelerate for the crit. I think he'll do well. Too bad he's not in my category. Yeah, right.😉

Alex Simmons said:

Dang, cover blown..... 007 out

With 1800 watts, you can be my lead-out man any day. Of course, we may have to send you to one of those Hollywood makeup artists for the day, to look ~61.😄

RapDaddyo said:

He has never raced, but I'm working on him.

You know, I've somehow gotten the ever so subtle impression you are working on more than just one person and that you might get the very slightest, almost immeasurable really, satisfaction from it all....😎

RapDaddyo said:

I want him to enter a 3-day stage race here at the end of January. I'll post a couple of club rides on the RR course to get him comfortable with it. It's got two climbs, a 10-mile and an 8-mile, and can be a bit intimidating. And maybe teach him to corner and accelerate for the crit. I think he'll do well. Too bad he's not in my category. Yeah, right.😉

Woah, a 3-day stage race for a first time? That seems rather ambitious - what is the makeup of the race?

RapDaddyo said:

With 1800 watts, you can be my lead-out man any day. Of course, we may have to send you to one of those Hollywood makeup artists for the day, to look ~61.😄

Er, not quite. 1800 would see me concentrate on world masters sprint and quite possibly win it. I'm an enduro with 1400 or so at my disposal. Besides, my mascara would run....