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Critique requested

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Cycling Equipment
Published
10 October 2003
Last activity
13 November 2003
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Claire Petersky
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  1. My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he sent me:

    ---

    I know you're sick of hearing about ti bike company comparisons, but here goes. I know that you're
    into the local idea, and if you were considering a custom steel frame, I'd say why not? But there
    are still massive qualitative differences b/w Ti manufacturers' products, and you need, therefore,
    to immerse yourself more into the research process. And, what's more fun than that anyway?!

    There are three primary differences between Seven and the other guys:
    1. Seven uses butted tubing, and they have the longest experience working w/ butten ti (a difficult
    thing to find in frames).
    2. Seven uses a space industry grade 3Al-2.5V ti instead a sports or commercial grade, and also
    instead of 6AL-4V (a lower quality alloy for frames), which is what you'll find in some of the
    Moots frame sets.
    3. Seven doesn't do final surface treatments (peening or texturizing), as this can cause stress
    risers and hides sloppy welds (like linings in Gore-Tex jackets).

    Seven allows for a truly custom frame with the axiom not just limiting a customer to tubelengths and
    handling characteristics but also tube dimensions and butt placement. They also use the best
    domestically sourced ti tubes available and as far as i know, they are the only ones to do so
    (though, i think the real world implications of this fact are probably non-existant). welds are
    clean, finish is luxurious. handling is a little risky to comment on as they are custom bikes. mine
    handles like a dream though. ride characteristics also vary with each frame... mine is on the
    steel-like side.

    for the money, Sevens are a terrific value. keep in mind that non-custom Merlins made with
    comparable design considerations (ala butted tubes) cost just as much as fully custom sevens do.
    Litespeeds, anything other than the arenberg and tuscany will cost a pretty penny too. Moots (best
    welds!) and Ibis probably are my favorite Ti bikes after Seven and both only offer straight-gauge
    tubesets at a price comparable to Seven's Alaris model. With Moots, custom will cost extra too. also
    on the side of value is the longevity of Ti. most people complain about the cost of Seven's, but in
    reality, they are not that bad compared with other truly high performance bicycles. plus, why would
    you want a couple of thousand dollars when you could have a great bicycle instead.

    one gripe is that i asked for the bike to be set-up with DT shifter bosses - not because i like the
    way the look or think they are more accessible than STI braze-ons, but because i was actually
    planning to use DT shifters! the boss was inserted so far up the downtube that not only did it look
    funny, but my fingers would get caught in the brake cable housing when i reached for the left
    shifter. i can theorize that the reason was to place the boss at the thickest part of the butt, but
    they could have run the butt longer to lower the boss. another gripe is the ST H20 braze on. it's
    too high at midway down the seattube. it looks odd, and i suppose it raises the bike's center of
    gravity. this, i admit is getting nit-picky. i only wish that i had thought about both of these
    issues (shifter boss & H20 boss) and told Seven _exactly_ where i wanted them placed.

    Overall rating reflects that this is indeed a solid bike and as good if not better than any
    currently available. Still, i don't consider it one of the truly great bikes of all time. Given the
    chance to buy it again though, i'd do it without a second thought.

    Types of Ti In addition to unalloyed titanium, which is called commercially pure or CP, there are
    two alloys commonly used in the cycling industry today: 3AL-2.5V and 6AL-4V.

    3AL-2.5V 3-2.5 titanium is an alloy consisting of 3% aluminum, 2.5% vanadium, and 94.5% pure
    titanium. The properties critical to bicycle tubing are best served by a high quality 3-2.5 seamless
    tube. Excellent fatigue life, property consistency, formability, and corrosion resistance are but a
    few of the reasons 3-2.5 is still the premier frame material.

    In the U.S., bicycle frames are commonly manufactured using 3-2.5 certified to either an ASTM B-338
    or a sports grade specification. ASTM B-338 meets all Aerospace Material Specifications for
    hydraulic tubing. Sports grade, certified according to a less stringent set of chemical and
    mechanical specifications, is typically less expensive.

    Some builders may use surplus material or "scrap", which meets neither aerospace nor sports grade
    specifications. Certification is not available for scrap, making it impossible to determine whether
    the material is of inferior quality.

    6AL-4V An alloy of 6% aluminum, 4% vanadium, and 90% titanium, 6-4 titanium offers some very
    favorable raw material properties, which is why Seven uses it to fabricate dropouts and other frame
    parts. One of the properties that makes 6-4 an optimal material for dropouts is its toughness. But
    this toughness also makes it unattractive as a material from which to make tubing. Applying the
    techniques used to draw 3-2.5 tubing to 6-4 tubing costs more and wears tooling very quickly. In
    addition, tube wall consistency, concentricity, and finish quality-both inside and outside-are
    limited. At the time of this printing, no U.S. mill offers seamless 6-4 tubing. However, some do
    offer 6-4 seamed, or welded, tubing.

    Two major issues prevent Seven Cycles from favoring this method of tube manufacture. First, seamed
    tubing is fabricated by rolling 6-4 sheet into a tube shape while simultaneously welding the seam
    that is created in the rolling process. The result is a tube that has a welded seam-a potential
    failure point-along its length. This seam acts as both a hard point and a stress riser since the
    weld bead is thicker than the tube itself and the weld creates an inconsistency in the tube.

    Second, 6-4 sheet is designed to be used as a sheet, not as a tube. If it is formed into a tube, its
    grain structure can lead to premature tube failure. Indeed, a 6-4 tube will fail through fatigue
    cycling (repeated flexing) before it should, and independent fatigue tests show that tubing made
    from 6-4 sheet does not have the fatigue life of a properly drawn 3-2.5 tube.

    In addition, an examination of some other high-tech industries that depend on high strength alloys
    like 3-2.5 and 6-4 reveals that none use 6-4 small diameter tubing, primarily for the reasons
    mentioned above. Consultation with titanium mills over the past decade tells us that seamless 6-4 is
    not on the near horizon.

    CP A small number of titanium frame builders incorporate Commercially Pure (CP) titanium into their
    frames. CP has, at best, half the strength of 3-2.5. A CP frame must be made heavier than an
    equivalent 3-2.5 frame in order to have comparable strength. Even most steels used in high quality
    frames have higher strength than CP. The overall quality of CP tubing is lower because it is
    typically used in low-cost applications-not bicycle building. CP is used mainly in industrial
    applications when corrosion resistance is most important.

  2. Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike.

    Why should he hound you? What's in it for him?

    Dave

  3. "Claire Petersky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he
    sent me:

    ---

    I know you're sick of hearing about ti bike company comparisons, but here goes. I know that you're
    into the local idea, and if you were considering a custom steel frame, I'd say why not?

    An off-the-shelf aluminum frame is pretty nice too if it fits and has all the stuff you want.
    Unless/until it cracks anyway...

    Quoted message said:

    2. Seven uses a space industry grade 3Al-2.5V ti instead a sports or commercial grade, and also
    instead of 6AL-4V (a lower quality alloy for frames),

    Does "lower quality" mean stronger? Yes I read his more detailed analysis. Without actual
    testing-to-failure results, I'm skeptical.

    Quoted message said:


    for the money, Sevens are a terrific value.

    They're way too far into the land of dimishing returns for me to think of them as a terrific value.
    I'm sure they're incredible frames, and I'm sure you'd enjoy one though.

    David

  4. Quoted message said:

    Subject: Critique requested From: [email hidden] (Claire Petersky) Date: 10/10/03 1:08 PM
    Pacific Daylight Time Message-id: <[email hidden]>

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay
    he sent me:

    ---

    I know you're sick of hearing about ti bike company comparisons, but here goes. I know that you're
    into the local idea, and if you were considering a custom steel frame, I'd say why not? But there
    are still massive qualitative differences b/w Ti manufacturers' products, and you need, therefore,
    to immerse yourself more into the research process. And, what's more fun than that anyway?!

    There are three primary differences between Seven and the other guys:
    1. Seven uses butted tubing, and they have the longest experience working w/ butten ti (a difficult
    thing to find in frames).
    2. Seven uses a space industry grade 3Al-2.5V ti instead a sports or commercial grade, and also
    instead of 6AL-4V (a lower quality alloy for frames), which is what you'll find in some of the
    Moots frame sets.
    3. Seven doesn't do final surface treatments (peening or texturizing), as this can cause stress
    risers and hides sloppy welds (like linings in Gore-Tex jackets).


    [Snipped]

    It sounds like he took the stuff right from Seven's promotional material and he's bought into even
    more than they have.

    Yes, Seven does use butted tubing. So do other manufacturers. Whether butted Ti really makes a
    performance difference other than with weight is questionable. Seven also makes a model with
    straight gauge titanium. One of the most well-regarded Ti bikes of all time, the Merlin Road, was
    made of straight-gauge tubing.

    Yes, Seven uses 3/2.5 tubing. That's the industry standard. High end Ti bikes aren't made from CP
    tubing. I've never heard anyone knowledgeable claim that
    6/4 was lower quality than 3/2.5. Everyone that I know of uses 6/4 for dropouts and BBs, purported
    because it's harder than 3/2.5. I've read that 6/4 is harder to work with than 3/2.5, but now
    Reynolds has a seamless 6/4 tubeset.

    As far as the peening thing, check out Independent Fabrication's website for their explanation why
    they believe peening makes for a stronger frame.

    Seven's are nice, but not quantitatively better than Moots or IF, etc. If you are going to get a
    really expensive Ti bike, the most important thing (as with any bike) is fit. Seven, IF and Moots
    all make custom frames, as does Merlin and probably a number of others.

    As far as price goes, these are all very expensive. A Seven is cheaper than a Merlin or high end
    Litespeed.

    Josh Zlotlow [email hidden] Sacramento, California Sacramento Golden Wheelmen www.sacgw.com

  5. In article <[email hidden]>, Claire Petersky

    Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay
    he sent me:

    This is the hype you get from many boutique builders who work with titanium, they are desperate to
    differentiate their products because when it's between your legs it's almost impossible, and most of
    them don't use paint as a differentiator. I would expect high quality materials and excellent
    welding from Seven. But many less expensive bikes are well made and OK for you as long as the bike
    suits you in fit and design.

    There are low quality titanium bikes to be avoided. But there is a very large field of good choices
    out there and most well-known custom ti builders do good work.

    I agree with the other posters on 6-4 titanium - as a tubing it is reserved for the most expensive
    frames, I wouldn't call it inferior but I wouldn't consider paying for it either.

    "for the money" Sevens are very expensive and if you don't buy the brand image, hard to justify. I
    would only buy into it if there was some emotional attraction, but for me Seven has a kind of East
    coast triathlete chic to it for some reason. :-)

    Even in steel Seven is above the cost of some decent custom ti builders.

    I think a custom bike worth buying should have some emotional appeal for the buyer. If a forest
    green lugged steel bike with curly stays is what floats your boat, who's to say no?

    --Paul

  6. Claire: Sevens are great bikes, no question, but the majority of people benefit from a "custom" bike
    primarily because they feel it's cool to have something unique. A very, very small subset of
    cyclists actually require something different from the norm of currently-available fit & geometries.
    Now, there's nothing wrong with wanting something unique, you just have to recognize that you're
    paying for that desire.

    And, of course, I'd love to see you try out a TREK OCLV and see what you thought of the ride! :>😉

    --Mike-- Chain Reaction Bicycles www.ChainReaction.com

    "Claire Petersky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he
    sent me:

    ---

    I know you're sick of hearing about ti bike company comparisons, but here goes. I know that you're
    into the local idea, and if you were considering a custom steel frame, I'd say why not? But there
    are still massive qualitative differences b/w Ti manufacturers' products, and you need, therefore,
    to immerse yourself more into the research process. And, what's more fun than that anyway?!

    There are three primary differences between Seven and the other guys:
    1. Seven uses butted tubing, and they have the longest experience working w/ butten ti (a
    difficult thing to find in frames).
    2. Seven uses a space industry grade 3Al-2.5V ti instead a sports or commercial grade, and also
    instead of 6AL-4V (a lower quality alloy for frames), which is what you'll find in some of the
    Moots frame sets.
    3. Seven doesn't do final surface treatments (peening or texturizing), as this can cause stress
    risers and hides sloppy welds (like linings in Gore-Tex jackets).

    Seven allows for a truly custom frame with the axiom not just limiting a customer to tubelengths
    and handling characteristics but also tube dimensions and butt placement. They also use the best
    domestically sourced ti tubes available and as far as i know, they are the only ones to do so
    (though, i think the real world implications of this fact are probably non-existant). welds are
    clean, finish is luxurious. handling is a little risky to comment on as they are custom bikes.
    mine handles like a dream though. ride characteristics also vary with each frame... mine is on the
    steel-like side.

    for the money, Sevens are a terrific value. keep in mind that non-custom Merlins made with
    comparable design considerations (ala butted tubes) cost just as much as fully custom sevens do.
    Litespeeds, anything other than the arenberg and tuscany will cost a pretty penny too. Moots (best
    welds!) and Ibis probably are my favorite Ti bikes after Seven and both only offer straight-gauge
    tubesets at a price comparable to Seven's Alaris model. With Moots, custom will cost extra too.
    also on the side of value is the longevity of Ti. most people complain about the cost of Seven's,
    but in reality, they are not that bad compared with other truly high performance bicycles. plus,
    why would you want a couple of thousand dollars when you could have a great bicycle instead.

    one gripe is that i asked for the bike to be set-up with DT shifter bosses - not because i like
    the way the look or think they are more accessible than STI braze-ons, but because i was actually
    planning to use DT shifters! the boss was inserted so far up the downtube that not only did it
    look funny, but my fingers would get caught in the brake cable housing when i reached for the left
    shifter. i can theorize that the reason was to place the boss at the thickest part of the butt,
    but they could have run the butt longer to lower the boss. another gripe is the ST H20 braze on.
    it's too high at midway down the seattube. it looks odd, and i suppose it raises the bike's center
    of gravity. this, i admit is getting nit-picky. i only wish that i had thought about both of these
    issues (shifter boss & H20 boss) and told Seven _exactly_ where i wanted them placed.

    Overall rating reflects that this is indeed a solid bike and as good if not better than any
    currently available. Still, i don't consider it one of the truly great bikes of all time. Given
    the chance to buy it again though, i'd do it without a second thought.

    Types of Ti In addition to unalloyed titanium, which is called commercially pure or CP, there are
    two alloys commonly used in the cycling industry today: 3AL-2.5V and 6AL-4V.

    3AL-2.5V 3-2.5 titanium is an alloy consisting of 3% aluminum, 2.5% vanadium, and 94.5% pure
    titanium. The properties critical to bicycle tubing are best served by a high quality 3-2.5
    seamless tube. Excellent fatigue life, property consistency, formability, and corrosion resistance
    are but a few of the reasons 3-2.5 is still the premier frame material.

    In the U.S., bicycle frames are commonly manufactured using 3-2.5 certified to either an ASTM
    B-338 or a sports grade specification. ASTM B-338 meets all Aerospace Material Specifications for
    hydraulic tubing. Sports grade, certified according to a less stringent set of chemical and
    mechanical specifications, is typically less expensive.

    Some builders may use surplus material or "scrap", which meets neither aerospace nor sports grade
    specifications. Certification is not available for scrap, making it impossible to determine
    whether the material is of inferior quality.

    6AL-4V An alloy of 6% aluminum, 4% vanadium, and 90% titanium, 6-4 titanium offers some very
    favorable raw material properties, which is why Seven uses it to fabricate dropouts and other
    frame parts. One of the properties that makes 6-4 an optimal material for dropouts is its
    toughness. But this toughness also makes it unattractive as a material from which to make tubing.
    Applying the techniques used to draw 3-2.5 tubing to 6-4 tubing costs more and wears tooling very
    quickly. In addition, tube wall consistency, concentricity, and finish quality-both inside and
    outside-are limited. At the time of this printing, no U.S. mill offers seamless 6-4 tubing.
    However, some do offer 6-4 seamed, or welded, tubing.

    Two major issues prevent Seven Cycles from favoring this method of tube manufacture. First, seamed
    tubing is fabricated by rolling 6-4 sheet into a tube shape while simultaneously welding the seam
    that is created in the rolling process. The result is a tube that has a welded seam-a potential
    failure point-along its length. This seam acts as both a hard point and a stress riser since the
    weld bead is thicker than the tube itself and the weld creates an inconsistency in the tube.

    Second, 6-4 sheet is designed to be used as a sheet, not as a tube. If it is formed into a tube,
    its grain structure can lead to premature tube failure. Indeed, a 6-4 tube will fail through
    fatigue cycling (repeated flexing) before it should, and independent fatigue tests show that
    tubing made from 6-4 sheet does not have the fatigue life of a properly drawn 3-2.5 tube.

    In addition, an examination of some other high-tech industries that depend on high strength alloys
    like 3-2.5 and 6-4 reveals that none use 6-4 small diameter tubing, primarily for the reasons
    mentioned above. Consultation with titanium mills over the past decade tells us that seamless 6-4
    is not on the near horizon.

    CP A small number of titanium frame builders incorporate Commercially Pure (CP) titanium into
    their frames. CP has, at best, half the strength of 3-2.5. A CP frame must be made heavier than an
    equivalent 3-2.5 frame in order to have comparable strength. Even most steels used in high quality
    frames have higher strength than CP. The overall quality of CP tubing is lower because it is
    typically used in low-cost applications-not bicycle building. CP is used mainly in industrial
    applications when corrosion resistance is most important.

  7. [email hidden] (Claire Petersky) writes:

    One thing I noticed about 6Al/3CV Ti frames is that in VeloNews (i think), when they do the 15+ page
    guides to current PRO bicycles available, the 6Al/3CV bikes always list significantly lower weights
    than the 3Al/2.5CV frames.

    - Don

  8. "Claire Petersky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he
    sent me:

    ---

    I know you're sick of hearing about ti bike company comparisons, but here goes. I know that you're
    into the local idea, and if you were considering a custom steel frame, I'd say why not? But there
    are still massive qualitative differences b/w Ti manufacturers' products, and you need, therefore,
    to immerse yourself more into the research process. And, what's more fun than that anyway?!

    There are three primary differences between Seven and the other guys:
    1. Seven uses butted tubing, and they have the longest experience working w/ butten ti (a
    difficult thing to find in frames).

    Serotta has been doing ti for years and has led the Vanguard in ti. Seven may have people from
    Serotta and Merlin who I believe have been around longer.

    Quoted message said:

    2. Seven uses a space industry grade 3Al-2.5V ti instead a sports or commercial grade, and also
    instead of 6AL-4V (a lower quality alloy for frames), which is what you'll find in some of the
    Moots frame sets.

    Serotta uses a much more sofisticated tube than the common space materials.

    Quoted message said:

    3. Seven doesn't do final surface treatments (peening or texturizing), as this can cause stress
    risers and hides sloppy welds (like linings in Gore-Tex jackets).

    Some merit to this argument. However not in the application of bike frames unless you score
    the material.

    Quoted message said:


    Seven allows for a truly custom frame with the axiom not just limiting a customer to tubelengths
    and handling characteristics but also tube dimensions and butt placement.

    Custom fitting is done by Serotta as well. What is more important is the person doing the fitting
    for you. Seven probably uses the Serotta sizing cycle like many others.

    Quoted message said:

    They also use the best domestically sourced ti tubes available and as far as i know, they are the
    only ones to do so (though, i think the real world implications of this fact are probably
    non-existant). welds are clean, finish is luxurious. handling is a little risky to comment on as
    they are custom bikes. mine handles like a dream though. ride characteristics also vary with each
    frame... mine is on the steel-like side

    Variation may occur to a little degree in different tube lengths. The variation your friend
    describes sounds like the process is out of control or materials are different.

    Quoted message said:


    for the money, Sevens are a terrific value. keep in mind that non-custom Merlins made with
    comparable design considerations (ala butted tubes) cost just as much as fully custom sevens do.
    Litespeeds, anything other than the arenberg and tuscany will cost a pretty penny too. Moots (best
    welds!) and Ibis probably are my favorite Ti bikes after Seven and both only offer straight-gauge
    tubesets at a price comparable to Seven's Alaris model. With Moots, custom will cost extra too.

    Moots, I like Moots. Lightspeed is mass produced by Trek or some other big outfit. Is Ibis still
    in business?

    Quoted message said:

    also on the side of value is the longevity of Ti. most people complain about the cost of Seven's,
    but in reality, they are not that bad compared with other truly high performance bicycles. plus,
    why would you want a couple of thousand dollars when you could have a great bicycle instead.

    Sevens are just as indistinct as any vanilla ti tube. Serotta on the other hand has tubes custom
    forged asymetrically to get consistent and repeatable ride for the geometry of the bike.

    Quoted message said:


    one gripe is that i asked for the bike to be set-up with DT shifter bosses - not because i like
    the way the look or think they are more accessible than STI braze-ons, but because i was actually
    planning to use DT shifters! the boss was inserted so far up the downtube that not only did it
    look funny, but my fingers would get caught in the brake cable housing when i reached for the left
    shifter. i can theorize that the reason was to place the boss at the thickest part of the butt,
    but they could have run the butt longer to lower the boss. another gripe is the ST H20 braze on.
    it's too high at midway down the seattube. it looks odd, and i suppose it raises the bike's center
    of gravity. this, i admit is getting nit-picky. i only wish that i had thought about both of these
    issues (shifter boss & H20 boss) and told Seven _exactly_ where i wanted them placed.

    Overall rating reflects that this is indeed a solid bike and as good if not better than any
    currently available. Still, i don't consider it one of the truly great bikes of all time. Given
    the chance to buy it again though, i'd do it without a second thought.

    Personal preference is great but it is your money. Try a Serotta Legend or Otrott with Carbon before
    you go with the fancy headbadge with good engineering and the abiity to stick ti tubes together.

    Quoted message said:


    Types of Ti In addition to unalloyed titanium, which is called commercially pure or CP, there are
    two alloys commonly used in the cycling industry today: 3AL-2.5V and 6AL-4V.

    3AL-2.5V 3-2.5 titanium is an alloy consisting of 3% aluminum, 2.5% vanadium, and 94.5% pure
    titanium. The properties critical to bicycle tubing are best served by a high quality 3-2.5
    seamless tube. Excellent fatigue life, property consistency, formability, and corrosion resistance
    are but a few of the reasons 3-2.5 is still the premier frame material.

    In the U.S., bicycle frames are commonly manufactured using 3-2.5 certified to either an ASTM
    B-338 or a sports grade specification. ASTM B-338 meets all Aerospace Material Specifications for
    hydraulic tubing. Sports grade, certified according to a less stringent set of chemical and
    mechanical specifications, is typically less expensive.

    Some builders may use surplus material or "scrap", which meets neither aerospace nor sports grade
    specifications. Certification is not available for scrap, making it impossible to determine
    whether the material is of inferior quality.

    6AL-4V An alloy of 6% aluminum, 4% vanadium, and 90% titanium, 6-4 titanium offers some very
    favorable raw material properties, which is why Seven uses it to fabricate dropouts and other
    frame parts. One of the properties that makes 6-4 an optimal material for dropouts is its
    toughness. But this toughness also makes it unattractive as a material from which to make tubing.
    Applying the techniques used to draw 3-2.5 tubing to 6-4 tubing costs more and wears tooling very
    quickly. In addition, tube wall consistency, concentricity, and finish quality-both inside and
    outside-are limited. At the time of this printing, no U.S. mill offers seamless 6-4 tubing.
    However, some do offer 6-4 seamed, or welded, tubing.

    Two major issues prevent Seven Cycles from favoring this method of tube manufacture. First, seamed
    tubing is fabricated by rolling 6-4 sheet into a tube shape while simultaneously welding the seam
    that is created in the rolling process. The result is a tube that has a welded seam-a potential
    failure point-along its length. This seam acts as both a hard point and a stress riser since the
    weld bead is thicker than the tube itself and the weld creates an inconsistency in the tube.

    Second, 6-4 sheet is designed to be used as a sheet, not as a tube. If it is formed into a tube,
    its grain structure can lead to premature tube failure. Indeed, a 6-4 tube will fail through
    fatigue cycling (repeated flexing) before it should, and independent fatigue tests show that
    tubing made from 6-4 sheet does not have the fatigue life of a properly drawn 3-2.5 tube.

    In addition, an examination of some other high-tech industries that depend on high strength alloys
    like 3-2.5 and 6-4 reveals that none use 6-4 small diameter tubing, primarily for the reasons
    mentioned above. Consultation with titanium mills over the past decade tells us that seamless 6-4
    is not on the near horizon.

    CP A small number of titanium frame builders incorporate Commercially Pure (CP) titanium into
    their frames. CP has, at best, half the strength of 3-2.5. A CP frame must be made heavier than an
    equivalent 3-2.5 frame in order to have comparable strength. Even most steels used in high quality
    frames have higher strength than CP. The overall quality of CP tubing is lower because it is
    typically used in low-cost applications-not bicycle building. CP is used mainly in industrial
    applications when corrosion resistance is most important.

  9. (Claire Petersky) said:

    for the money, Sevens are a terrific value.

    Here's what to tell him -- just quote the section above and say "ha ha, you're such a kidder.
    Now shut up."

    JT
    *******************************************
    NB: reply-to address is munged

    Visit jt10000.comjt10000.com
    *******************************************

  10. aside from all the marketing hype, i have the following technical comments:

    Quoted message said:

    1. Seven uses butted tubing, and they have the longest experience working w/ butten ti (a
    difficult thing to find in frames).

    yes, butted is better, but 7 are not the only ones using it.

    Quoted message said:

    2. Seven uses a space industry grade 3Al-2.5V ti instead a sports or commercial grade, and also
    instead of 6AL-4V (a lower quality alloy for frames), which is what you'll find in some of the
    Moots frame sets.

    incorrect. 6-4 is unquestionably the superior technical tubeset - better specific modulus. but it's
    significanly more expensive and therefore less profitable.

    Quoted message said:

    3. Seven doesn't do final surface treatments (peening or texturizing),

    peening is good for fatigue.

    Quoted message said:

    as this can cause stress risers

    risers are typically helped by finishing, not hindered.

    and hides sloppy welds (like linings

    Quoted message said:

    in Gore-Tex jackets).

    the primary determinant of strength in a ti weld is oxygen absorption and usually this leads to
    coloration around the heated zone - with the color roughly corresponding to degree of oxygen
    reaction. but even 7 clean their welds so you can't tell if there's any disclororation. this
    argument is incorrect.

    <snip>

    Quoted message said:

    Second, 6-4 sheet is designed to be used as a sheet, not as a tube.

    incorrect.

    Quoted message said:

    If it is formed into a tube, its grain structure can lead to premature tube failure.

    absolutely incorrect.

    Quoted message said:

    Indeed, a 6-4 tube will fail through fatigue cycling (repeated flexing) before it should, and
    independent fatigue tests show that tubing made from 6-4 sheet does not have the fatigue life of
    a properly drawn 3-2.5 tube.

    incorrect. 6-4 still has perfectly acceptable fatigue properties.

    Quoted message said:

    Consultation with titanium mills over the past decade tells us that seamless 6-4 is not on the
    near horizon.

    really? someone had better tell reynolds!

    reynolds-cycle.comtitanium.htm

  11. Claire Petersky said:

    custom steel frame, I'd say why not? But there are still massive qualitative differences b/w Ti
    manufacturers' products,

    According to whom? You have to take your source of information into account, you know. Looks like
    your source is ... Seven.

    Quoted message said:

    There are three primary differences between Seven and the other guys: 1. Seven uses butted tubing,
    and they have the longest experience working w/ butten ti (a difficult thing to find in frames).

    Lots of high-end ti bikes use butted tubing.

    Quoted message said:

    2. Seven uses a space industry grade 3Al-2.5V ti instead a sports or commercial grade, and also
    instead of 6AL-4V (a lower quality alloy for frames),

    Their 3/2.5 is "better" than everyone else's?  Is that what they claim? And 6/4 is not "lower
    quality"; it is, however, harder to work with. It is also stiffer for the same size. Hard to find
    6/4 in non-seamed tubing, but it does exist if you are willing to pay for it.

    Quoted message said:

    also on the side of value is the longevity of Ti. most people complain about the cost of Seven's,
    but in reality, they are not that bad compared with other truly high performance bicycles. plus,
    why would you want a couple of thousand dollars when you could have a great bicycle instead.

    Note that that is a couple thousand _extra_....

    Quoted message said:

    A small number of titanium frame builders incorporate Commercially Pure
    (CP) titanium into their frames.

    These are mostly cheap knock-offs. Don't presume that Lightspeed will try to sell you
    commercially-pure ti frames.

    --

    David L. Johnson

    __o | You will say Christ saith this and the apostles say this; but _`\(,_ | what canst thou say?
    -- George Fox. (_)/ (_) |

  12. (Claire Petersky) said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay
    he sent me:

    ---


    " the boss was inserted so far up the downtube that not only did it look funny"

    did he get a pay raise for getting him out?

  13. Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay
    he sent me:

    You're not a Seven person, Claire.

    That's JMHO. I see you going to Breinigsville, PA, I see you on a Spectrum bicycle.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

  14. Eric S. Sande' from Realtime Limited said:
    Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he
    sent me:

    You're not a Seven person, Claire.

    That's JMHO. I see you going to Breinigsville, PA, I see you on a Spectrum bicycle.

    She strikes me as more of a Heron or Waterford person.

    --
    home.sport.rr.comcuthulu human rights = peace shoe ash a bike assuming
    12:12:11 AM 11 October 2003

  15. Quoted message said:

    for the money, Sevens are a terrific value.....

    Quoted message said:

    also on the side of value is the longevity of Ti. most people complain about the cost of Seven's,
    but in reality, they are not that bad compared with other truly high performance bicycles.

    Well, remember: It's your money. What do *you* consider to be a "terrific value"?

    Quoted message said:

    plus, why would you want a couple of thousand dollars when you could have a great bicycle instead.

    Geez. There's a local bike shop here that would LOVE to have more customers like this guy.

  16. "onefred" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:
    Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike.

    Why should he hound you? What's in it for him?

    He has no money. He thinks I do. If I buy one, he'd enjoy it vicariously.

    --
    Warm Regards,

    Claire Petersky Please substitute earthlink.net for mousepotato.com Home of the meditative cyclist
    at: home.earthlink.netWelcome.htm

    Books just wanna be FREE! See what I mean at: bookcrossing.comCpetersky

  17. In rec.bicycles.misc Kevan Smith <[email hidden]/\/\> wrote:
    : She strikes me as more of a Heron or Waterford person.

    yea, waterford is spot on.
    --
    david reuteler [email hidden]

  18. "Claire Petersky" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
    "]news:[email hidden]...

    Quoted message said:

    My co-worker has been hounding me to buy a Seven bike. Please critique this little essay he
    sent me:

    <snip lots of Seven Bikes drivel>.

    My sister just bought a Seven. Many riders in my Boston-area club ride them. I've come to associate
    Ti bikes with middle-age crisis. She also bought a BMW convertible. She was also talked into the
    Seven by someone else, in her case a (now ex) boyfriend, using all the same
    techno-elite-consumer-babble. People have waaaay too much money.

  19. Quoted message said:

    People have waaaay too much money.

    And I thought I was splurging on new tires. What a world.

    --

    _______________________ALL AMIGA IN MY MIND_______________________ ------------------"Buddy Holly,
    the Texas Elvis"------------------
    __________306.350.357.38>>[email hidden]__________

  20. Brian Wax said:
    Quoted message said:

    Lightspeed is mass produced by Trek or some other big outfit.

    Huh?

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