ITTs for lightweights

"Sonarrat" <[email hidden]..> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

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I got my USCF license just a few days ago, looked on their website and

found the

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Tom's Time Trial series, a series of four 10-mile ITTs in Corona,

California. I

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love ITTs and if I were to choose a specialty, knowing I could succeed in

any of

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them, it would be that one. I even work on my form using a full-length

mirror.

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The problem is that the prototypical time-trialist is heavier and more

solidly

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built than I am - I'm the same height (and shoe size) as Isidro Nozal, but

I

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weigh 20 pounds less. I fare rather poorly alone on the flats - I'm just

not a

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powerhouse with deep reserves to call on. I can't fight my way through

the

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wind. In the months to come, I will be doing some strength training, but

that

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won't help me in time for any of these races.

It won't help you for these races ever.

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What can I do to minimize the damage in the meantime?

Keep working on that aero position - in the modern era, there seems to be a niche for riders of
rather modest stature and absolute power output, but excellent aerodynamic characteristics (e.g.,
Colby Pearce).

Andy Coggan

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Quoted message said:

Keep working on that aero position - in the modern era, there seems to be a niche for riders of
rather modest stature and absolute power output, but excellent aerodynamic characteristics (e.g.,
Colby Pearce).

Andy Coggan

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Is that meant to be a rhetorical question? I ask because the answer seems pretty obvious to me: read
*everything* you can possibly find on the subject, then implement what you have learned. If you do
that, and do it well, then a visit to the local "aero expert" or even the wind tunnel will most
likely just confirm that you're on the right track.

Andy Coggan

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Do what I do, tape a profile shot of Miguel Indurain to a mirror, and adjust your bike and position
until it looks like the picture. 🙂

-Sonarrat.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using no force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons)
4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude difference),
cyclometer, and some physics, you could probably figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using no force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons)
4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude
difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

Quoted message said:

figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Hey Dipshit, nice recommendations.

Finally something helpful from ole Henry! (no I'm actually not being sarcastic.)

Since Dumbass is "taken" I figure Dipshit's a good one...

Mike

Kurgan Gringioni said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using no force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons) 4) The results will be
similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude difference), cyclometer, and
some physics, you could probably figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

I guess it could be similar to the results from a wind tunnel in the sense that Microsoft Flight
Simulator is similar to flying a real 747, or the stuff from Taco Bell is similar to real food, or
that what we have is similar to a real foreign policy.

Coast down testing doesn't have nearly the level of sensitivity of a wind tunnel.

none said:

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How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbass -
1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using no force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons)
4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude
difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could probably figure out what your drag
coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Pretty good advice, the only problem is that in a real TT you have to pedal and your optimal aero
position for descending might not give you optimal power output. But in the absence of a wind tunnel
this is probably still the best (or only) option as long as you remember you need a position in
which you can pedal too.

"]news:[email hidden]...

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none said:

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing
or "aero experts" to visit locally?

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Dumbass -
1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons)
4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude
difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Pretty good advice, the only problem is that in a real TT you have to pedal and your optimal aero
position for descending might not give you optimal power output. But in the absence of a wind
tunnel this is probably still the best (or only) option as long as you remember you need a
position in which you can pedal too.

Dumbass -

Put it in the 39x21 and pedal at 90rpm after you coast and hit 15 mph. There will be no power input
into the system (the gear is too small).

"Robert Chung" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Kurgan Gringioni said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing
or "aero experts" to visit locally?

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using no force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons) 4) The results will be
similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude difference), cyclometer, and
some physics, you could probably figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

I guess it could be similar to the results from a wind tunnel in the sense that Microsoft Flight
Simulator is similar to flying a real 747, or the stuff from Taco Bell is similar to real food, or
that what we have is similar to a real foreign policy.

Coast down testing doesn't have nearly the level of sensitivity of a wind tunnel.

Dumbass -

It doesn't matter. You need to know which setup changes reduce drag and which ones are not. As long
as the wind conditions are calm and the right hill is chosen, it should be possible to tell.

"Mike S." <mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet> wrote in message news:1U7fb.45500$vj2.39388@fed1read06...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons)
4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude
difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

Quoted message said:

figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Hey Dipshit, nice recommendations.

Finally something helpful from ole Henry! (no I'm actually not being sarcastic.)

Since Dumbass is "taken" I figure Dipshit's a good one...

Dumbass -

All of my posts are helpful.

This one is a prime example.

Henry Chang said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious

reasons)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a

GPS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(for altitude difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

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figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Hey Dumbass,

Have you actually *tried* doing this? If so, what was the variability?

Andy Coggan

Coming from someone who is of very modest stature, I've had the same problems, but I've learned
over the years that training and position can take you a long way. E.G., When I was 19, I could
barely muster a
23.30 for 10 miles, but I managed to post a PR a few years ago of nearly sub-20, as well as a 54 min
40 km. Most of those gains could be attributed to increased training/racing demands and position,
which I believe is very good for not having a wind tunnel. Here's my advice:

24. Throw out that Miguel Indurain shot...besides having a rather poor TT position (relative to
others) - it was stated that his position on the drops was more aero, but brutally
uncomfortable for him. Besides emulating one position of a great time trialist gives you his
best position, not your own. You need to find one that works for you by adjusting it to what we
know to be aero and tweaking from there. The best resource I've found is John Cobb's
bicyclesports.com. That will give some real starting points for position.

25. As Andy said, READ & LEARN!

26. Buy an adjustable stem, like Look makes. This is probably one of the best pieces of equipment
that I've purchased, and one that no one ever buys. It will eliminate A LOT of headaches
adjusting your position. If you're interested, I have one that has been barely used (threadless,
1 1/8"😉; I just don't need two.

27. Once the postion is set, then start buying wheels. I've seen a lot of nice bikes going real slow
due to poor position! BTW: cover those air vents on the helmet.

Try these out.

Chris Harnish, M.S. Exercise Physiologist & Coach

"Sonarrat" <[email hidden]..> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

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<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Do what I do, tape a profile shot of Miguel Indurain to a mirror, and adjust your bike and
position until it looks like the picture. 🙂

-Sonarrat.

fatass;-dumbass.... the only thing this will show you due to the variable delta is if you have tires
with a low friction factor........

you never have tried it. just something pulled out of your fatass-almost mensa-dumbass self....

On 10/2/03 10:34 PM, in article 1U7fb.45500$vj2.39388@fed1read06, "Mike S."

mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using no force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious reasons)
4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a GPS (for altitude
difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

Quoted message said:

figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Hey Dipshit, nice recommendations.

Finally something helpful from ole Henry! (no I'm actually not being sarcastic.)

Since Dumbass is "taken" I figure Dipshit's a good one...

Mike

How about "AssClown"

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

Quoted message said:

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom

using

Quoted message said:

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious

reasons)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a

GPS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(for altitude difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

Quoted message said:

figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Hey Dumbass,

Have you actually *tried* doing this? If so, what was the variability?

Andy Coggan

?WHAT?! Henry ride?? WTF are you thinking?

Mike

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Henry Chang said:

Quoted message said:

Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using

no

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious

reasons)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a

GPS

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(for altitude difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

Quoted message said:

figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Hey Dumbass,

Have you actually *tried* doing this? If so, what was the variability?

Dumbass -

We've got a 1.5 mile 6% grade that's convenient here (Torry Pines). It's good for 1st order effects
where the difference will be large (tri spoke front wheel vs. 28 spokes for example), but it's not
as good for small variations in position because the test only lasts for ~3 minutes.

To really fine-tune, a longer hill would be needed.

As an aside, I think about 5-6% is about right, because coasting speed should be close to TT speed.
I'll guess that the fluid dynamics of the system could be different at 15mph or at 45 mph.

An example of this is the Russian Skval torpedo. Once that thing reaches a certain velocity,
supercavitation occurs and an airpocket forms around the head, allowing for obscene speeds (since
friction vs. air is less than friction vs. water). Don't ask me why, I tried reading a fluid
dynamics textbook and couldn't get past the first example.

"Andy Coggan" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

<[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

How can an "average Joe" work on his aero position without the benefit of wind tunnel testing or
"aero experts" to visit locally?

Is that meant to be a rhetorical question? I ask because the answer seems pretty obvious to me:
read *everything* you can possibly find on the subject, then implement what you have learned. If
you do that, and do it well, then a visit to the local "aero expert" or even the wind tunnel will
most likely just confirm that you're on the right track.

Andy Coggan

Dammit Andy you are a really smart guy but you fall down when you pretend to know everything...

[John] Cobb commented that one must do the measurement; setting up a rider so that "the rider looks
right" does not give good results....

I am sorry but I am taking John's word over yours.

Quoted message said:

2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using no force save gravity

Wouldn't the times be different for the next few trials? How do you evaluate your aero performance
if your watts are different every time?