ITTs for lightweights

nm... didn't notice it was top to bottom. "Jiyang Chen" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using

no

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force save gravity

Wouldn't the times be different for the next few trials? How do you evaluate your aero performance
if your watts are different every time?

Steven said:

[John] Cobb commented that one must do the measurement; setting up a rider so that "the rider
looks right" does not give good results....

I reckon it depends on how closely and what method one uses while "eyeballing" a TT position.

I'm a fan of dialing in positioning using frontal area as a first order measurement method - and
some data sets exist that lend support to the validity of this idea. For best results, though, a
wind tunnel is the way to go.

--
==================
Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
==================

"Kraig Willett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steven said:

[John] Cobb commented that one must do the measurement; setting up a rider so that "the rider
looks right" does not give good results....

I reckon it depends on how closely and what method one uses while "eyeballing" a TT position.

I'm a fan of dialing in positioning using frontal area as a first order measurement method - and
some data sets exist that lend support to the validity of this idea. For best results, though, a
wind tunnel is the way to go.

Nobody is taking the position that the wind tunnel is anything but the preferred method. The whole
discussion was about what is the best approach if you do not have access?

FWIW, I agree with Kraig and have had the most benefit from the approach he recommends. Use cameras
to reduce the frontal area. Kraig's web site has a good discussion on the method (I don't remember
if it's in the free or subscriber area though).

. In the months to come, I will be doing some strength training, but

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that

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won't help me in time for any of these races.

It won't help you for these races ever.

Andy, can you elaborate on that statement? It seems to me that strength training helped my time
trialing immensely last season. The winter of '02/'03 was the first time I've done any serious
lifting, (okay, so I've only been racing 2 years). But I saw big improvements in my TT'ing,
confirmed by monthly computrainer testing, an increase by 3-7 watts each month through out the
winter-spring. It has leveled off a bit since my March test (also when I stopped lifting).
Strength training was the biggest change in my training plan last season. I realize this is purely
anecdotal evidence, but I can only guess that the strength training made the biggest difference.
What do you think?

Suz

"Suz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. In the months to come, I will be doing some strength training, but

Quoted message said:

that

Quoted message said:

won't help me in time for any of these races.

It won't help you for these races ever.

Andy, can you elaborate on that statement? It seems to me that strength training helped my time
trialing immensely last season. The winter of '02/'03 was the first time I've done any serious
lifting, (okay, so I've only been racing 2 years). But I saw big improvements in my TT'ing,
confirmed by monthly computrainer testing, an increase by 3-7 watts each month through out the
winter-spring. It has leveled off a bit since my March test (also when I stopped lifting).
Strength training was the

biggest

Quoted message said:

change in my training plan last season. I realize this is purely

anecdotal

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evidence, but I can only guess that the strength training made the biggest difference. What do
you think?

Suz

Strength training is not a panacea, but it can help some people. Don't feel bad about what Andy tell
you, this is just a hang-up he has.

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Suz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Strength training is not a panacea, but it can help some people. Don't

feel

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bad about what Andy tell you, this is just a hang-up he has.

Yeah, I don't think I had a lot of leg strength last year. My legs would usually tire out before my
heart rate got very high. No worries about Andy's comments, I'm pretty familiar with his work- my
coach is at Andy's clinic in Colorado Springs at this very moment. Don't know if they are discussing
strength training though.

Suz

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Strength training is not a panacea, but it can help some people. Don't

feel

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bad about what Andy tell you, this is just a hang-up he has.

Yeah, I don't think I had a lot of leg strength last year. My legs would usually tire out before
my heart rate got very high. No worries about Andy's comments, I'm pretty familiar with his work-
my coach is at Andy's clinic in Colorado Springs at this very moment. Don't know if they are
discussing strength training though.

Suz

You can do some of the same strength training stuff on the bike: big gear, low RPM, hill intervals
for example.

The added benefit is that you're doing something bike-specific. What's better to help you be a
better cyclist than riding a bicycle?

Mike

Quoted message said:

You can do some of the same strength training stuff on the bike: big gear, low RPM, hill intervals
for example.

The added benefit is that you're doing something bike-specific. What's better to help you be a
better cyclist than riding a bicycle?

Mike

Yeah, I know. Doesn't seem to be enough for me, though, and it's hard to get out and do that a lot
during the winter when it's dark before i leave work. I don't much like doing that kind of stuff on
the trainer.

Suz

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Suz" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

. In the months to come, I will be doing some strength training, but

Quoted message said:

that
> won't help me in time for any of these races.

It won't help you for these races ever.

Andy, can you elaborate on that statement? It seems to me that strength training helped my time
trialing immensely last season. The winter of '02/'03 was the first time I've done any serious
lifting, (okay, so I've only been racing 2 years). But I saw big improvements in my TT'ing,
confirmed by monthly computrainer testing, an increase by 3-7 watts each month through out the
winter-spring. It has leveled off a bit since my March test (also when I stopped lifting).
Strength training was the

biggest

Quoted message said:

change in my training plan last season. I realize this is purely

anecdotal

Quoted message said:

evidence, but I can only guess that the strength training made the

biggest

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

difference. What do you think?

Suz

Strength training is not a panacea, but it can help some people. Don't feel bad about what Andy
tell you, this is just a hang-up he has.

I agree with Andy's attitude, strength is rarely the limiting factor in ITT.

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

I agree with Andy's attitude, strength is rarely the limiting factor in

ITT.

Like I said, rarely is not the same thing as never. More and more people are realizing this.

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

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I agree with Andy's attitude, strength is rarely the limiting factor in

ITT.

Like I said, rarely is not the same thing as never.

Dumbass -

That is true.

"Steve" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 10/2/03 10:34 PM, in article 1U7fb.45500$vj2.39388@fed1read06, "Mike

S."

Quoted message said:

mikeshaw2@coxDOTnet said:

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Dumbass -

1) Go to a long straight hill with no stoplights on a windless day.
2) Try different aero setups and time yourself from top to bottom using

no

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force save gravity
3) Do not change more than one parameter at a time. (for obvious

reasons)

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4) The results will be similar to that of a wind tunnel. If you use a

GPS

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(for altitude difference), cyclometer, and some physics, you could

probably

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figure out what your drag coefficient is.
5) use your brain - this stuff is not rocket science.

Hey Dipshit, nice recommendations.

Finally something helpful from ole Henry! (no I'm actually not being sarcastic.)

Since Dumbass is "taken" I figure Dipshit's a good one...

Mike

How about "AssClown"

Nah, I like Dipshit better, but thanks anyway.

Mike

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

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I agree with Andy's attitude, strength is rarely the limiting factor in ITT.

Rarely, but in this case, I think it is. My lungs are three or four steps ahead of my legs.

-Sonarrat.

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kraig Willett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Steven said:

[John] Cobb commented that one must do the measurement; setting up

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

rider so that "the rider looks right" does not give good

results....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I reckon it depends on how closely and what method one uses while "eyeballing" a TT position.

I'm a fan of dialing in positioning using frontal area as a first

order

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

measurement method - and some data sets exist that lend support to

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

validity of this idea. For best results, though, a wind tunnel is

the way

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to go.

Nobody is taking the position that the wind tunnel is anything but the preferred method. The whole
discussion was about what is the best

approach

Quoted message said:

if you do not have access?

FWIW, I agree with Kraig and have had the most benefit from the

approach he

Quoted message said:

recommends. Use cameras to reduce the frontal area. Kraig's web site

has a

Quoted message said:

good discussion on the method (I don't remember if it's in the free or subscriber area though).

This sounds like a reasonable approach. Thumbing through my college Math book I found a
reference to the DuBois formula which relates a person's surface area to weight and height. s
(m^2) = 0.01*w^0.25*h^0.75 (w (kg), h (cm)) It would be neat to map a series of frontal area
values from these, i.e for a given surface area a target frontal area to shoot for. Not
forgetting that being able to maintain power output in a radical position will also be a
consideration. Using Tom Compton's website analyticcycling.comanalyticcycling.comOpen ↗ I came up with an
estimate for my frontal area of .56 m^2 using a known power and speed ratio. Using the DuBois
formula for surface area, I came up with
1.52 m^2 so frontal area is 37% of surface area. Anyone interested in posting their %.

Phil Holman

"Sonarrat" <[email hidden]..> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in

message

Quoted message said:

"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I agree with Andy's attitude, strength is rarely the limiting factor in

ITT.

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Rarely, but in this case, I think it is. My lungs are three or four steps

ahead

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of my legs.

Spin faster?

(unless that gets silly, of course...)

Peter

"Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Using Tom Compton's website analyticcycling.comanalyticcycling.comOpen ↗ I came up with an estimate for my
frontal area of .56 m^2 using a known power and speed ratio.

Is this in a TT position, Phil, or on the hoods?

I've measured the frontal area of my TT setup to be in the 0.30 m^2 range (I am 6'0 and 160 lbs).
The lowest I've measured is in the 0.25 m^2 range. I would estimate an error of <5% on these
measurements.

FWIW, the results of my TT position study can be viewed for free at:

biketechreview.comkw.htmOpen ↗

--
==================
Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
==================

"Kraig Willett" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Phil Holman" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Using Tom Compton's website analyticcycling.comanalyticcycling.comOpen ↗ I came

up

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

with an estimate for my frontal area of .56 m^2 using a known power

and

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speed ratio.

Is this in a TT position, Phil, or on the hoods?

This is in the TT position. I'm 6'2" and 175lb. .56m^2 would therefore appear to be high but if I
plug your numbers into Tom's website it spits out 251 watts for 30mph. Something is not right here.

Phil Holman

Quoted message said:

I've measured the frontal area of my TT setup to be in the 0.30 m^2

range (I

Quoted message said:

am 6'0 and 160 lbs). The lowest I've measured is in the 0.25 m^2

range. I

Quoted message said:

would estimate an error of <5% on these measurements.

FWIW, the results of my TT position study can be viewed for free at:

biketechreview.comkw.htmOpen ↗

--
==================
Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
==================

Sonarrat .. said:

"Kurgan Gringioni" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I agree with Andy's attitude, strength is rarely the limiting factor in ITT.

Quoted message said:

Rarely, but in this case, I think it is. My lungs are three or four steps ahead of my legs.

A) All this aero [censored] is well and good, but if I understand your level correctly, read
bikerace.ahc.umn.edufirstrace.htmlOpen ↗

B) You know your body better than I do. OTOH, riding a TT at a cadence of 80-90 or whatever means
each leg is doing 80-90 reps a minute and of necessity, the force in each rep is much less then
when you do leg presses or similar lifting exercises. That's why ultimate strength
(B.a. how much you can press for 10 reps) in your legs is unlikely to be a limiter.

We've probably all had the experience where you go for a long ride and towards the end, you struggle
up a climb, your legs feeling heavy and screaming in pain even though your breathing doesn't seem
hard. If I understand the physiology correctly, this is because you've worked your muscles to
fatigue, and probably has something to do with recruiting and fatiguing fast-twitch muscles. But it
doesn't really have much to do with ultimate strength; you (we) need more glycogen stores, not more
muscle mass. Any real physiologists can feel free to correct me.

Mike S said:

Quoted message said:

You can do some of the same strength training stuff on the bike: big gear, low RPM, hill
intervals for example.

The added benefit is that you're doing something bike-specific. What's better to help you be a
better cyclist than riding a bicycle?

Suz said:

Yeah, I know. Doesn't seem to be enough for me, though, and it's hard to get out and do that a lot
during the winter when it's dark before i leave work. I don't much like doing that kind of stuff
on the trainer.

One way of combining on bike strength work and going to the gym is using a spinning bike for power
training (if your gym allows you to use the spinning bikes outside of spinning classes). The
flywheel on most spinning bikes can be set to a very high resistance, much higher than most indoor
trainers. Make sure you use proper cycling pedals if you value your toes. I used this method to do
power work while my collar bone was broken.

Cd for a cyclist in the TT position is _around_ 0.7. Not 0.5 as is indicated at Tom's site. The
product, CdA, is _typically_ in the 0.25 range.

I can understand why it is done the way it is done at his site, but it does lead to a bit of
confusion, IMHO.

--
==================
Kraig Willett www.biketechreview.com
==================