Followups

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

If they don't, you need to ask yourself if you are you willing to start
paying list price for your high-end rides.

--
Bill Asher

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

Do you realize you are talking to yourself?

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

I've never said anything about a complete TT bike. I don't own one
myself. I also don't claim to be a TT expert. I just said you're a bad
koach.

You've been arguing against the use of all TT equipment at Cat 4/5. I
think everyone who does TTs should at minimum use clip-on aerobars
which are quite affordable. The next step would be a rear disk wheel
and a deep section front wheel. That's enough to compete without a
severe handicap. I wouldn't begrudge anyone that equipment choice. Why
do you?

Your numbers are also way off. Here in CO, we recently had more than
twenty cat 4's (ACA has no cat 5) over 25 mph in the 38K State TT:

http://www.americancycling.org/results/2006/june/stenner.htm

Bret

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

Tom -

Kindly show where I advised anyone to acquire any piece of equipment
for any time trial.

Question: Why is your speed criterion dropping from 25 mph to 23 mph?

Also, note that my name is spelled Ronaldo.

Finally, thank you for acknowledging me as an 'expert.' I may not be
expert in as many areas as you (who is?), but it would be fair to say I
have some expertise in bicycle racing.

-RJ

Bret said:

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

I've never said anything about a complete TT bike. I don't own one
myself. I also don't claim to be a TT expert. I just said you're a bad
koach.

For suggesting that someone learn to TT before buying specialize
equipment? Obviously you're a good koach suggesting that buying special
stuff is a better idea than learning what you're supposed to do first.

Quoted message said:

You've been arguing against the use of all TT equipment at Cat 4/5. I
think everyone who does TTs should at minimum use clip-on aerobars
which are quite affordable. The next step would be a rear disk wheel
and a deep section front wheel. That's enough to compete without a
severe handicap. I wouldn't begrudge anyone that equipment choice. Why
do you?

Your numbers are also way off. Here in CO, we recently had more than
twenty cat 4's (ACA has no cat 5) over 25 mph in the 38K State TT:

http://www.americancycling.org/results/2006/june/stenner.htm

Is it just me or do you have a problem with English in general? What
does some Cat 4's being faster than 25 mph have to do with the majority
under that?

ronaldo_jeremiah said:

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

Tom -

Kindly show where I advised anyone to acquire any piece of equipment
for any time trial.

Question: Why is your speed criterion dropping from 25 mph to 23 mph?

Also, note that my name is spelled Ronaldo.

Finally, thank you for acknowledging me as an 'expert.' I may not be
expert in as many areas as you (who is?), but it would be fair to say I
have some expertise in bicycle racing.

Why do you feel the need to hite your identity?

Quoted message said:

Why do you feel the need to hite your identity?

My identity is well known. I'm not hiting anything.

Why do you feel the need ignore direct questions?

-RJ

"Tom Kunich" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Bret said:

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

I've never said anything about a complete TT bike. I don't own one
myself. I also don't claim to be a TT expert. I just said you're a bad
koach.

For suggesting that someone learn to TT before buying specialize
equipment? Obviously you're a good koach suggesting that buying special
stuff is a better idea than learning what you're supposed to do first.

Could you please give detailed instruction, point by point, on how to time
trial? Could you also make that for with and without the use of a heart
rate monitor?

Thanks in advance for answering my questions.

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Tom Kunich said:

Bret said:

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

I've never said anything about a complete TT bike. I don't own one
myself. I also don't claim to be a TT expert. I just said you're a bad
koach.

For suggesting that someone learn to TT before buying specialize
equipment? Obviously you're a good koach suggesting that buying special
stuff is a better idea than learning what you're supposed to do first.

Quoted message said:

You've been arguing against the use of all TT equipment at Cat 4/5. I
think everyone who does TTs should at minimum use clip-on aerobars
which are quite affordable. The next step would be a rear disk wheel
and a deep section front wheel. That's enough to compete without a
severe handicap. I wouldn't begrudge anyone that equipment choice. Why
do you?

Your numbers are also way off. Here in CO, we recently had more than
twenty cat 4's (ACA has no cat 5) over 25 mph in the 38K State TT:

http://www.americancycling.org/results/2006/june/stenner.htm

Is it just me or do you have a problem with English in general? What
does some Cat 4's being faster than 25 mph have to do with the majority
under that?

You didn't limit your arguments to absolute beginners, you included all
cat 4/5's. In fact, you even expanded on that with this absurd
statement:

"In ANY case, a person should be setting records for his area without
Aero stuff before he starts using it".

I'm not sure what "records for his area" means, but you seem to be
saying that anyone below a competitive cat 2 should not use areo
equipment. How you are supposed to compete at this level (say 29 mph)
with a serious equipment disadvantage is not explained.

Bret

Bret said:

You've been arguing against the use of all TT equipment at Cat 4/5. I
think everyone who does TTs should at minimum use clip-on aerobars
which are quite affordable. The next step would be a rear disk wheel
and a deep section front wheel.

<snip>

Dumbass -

Rear disc isn't that important.

The first order effect is spending a lot of time dialing in the
position. The body is, by far, the biggest component of drag.

Second order effects are anything that are in "clean" air. Helmet, deep
section front wheel, forks.

The rear disc is a fifth order effect. It spins in "dirty" air. Last is
the frame - goes through "dirty" air and doesn't spin.

Ironically, the aerodynamic importance of a component seems to be
inversely proportional to the cost. It is a fortuitous occurrence.
Getting "aero" doesn't cost very much. Bars, helmet, fork, deep section
front wheel. Can be done for less than $500 if you buy used on ebay or
at swap meeets. If money is an issue, skip the fifth order effects, the
rear wheel and frame. The system won't look as impressive as a setup w/
the rear disc and snazzy frame, but it will be very close in
performance.

The last step: once one has the setup, train on it, at least once a
week. Get used to making wattage in the bars.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Bret schreef:

Quoted message said:

equipment. How you are supposed to compete at this level (say 29 mph)
with a serious equipment disadvantage is not explained.

Time trialling is for pussies.

--
E. Dronkert

Kurgan Gringioni said:

The first order effect is spending a lot of time dialing in the
position. The body is, by far, the biggest component of drag.

Second order effects are anything that are in "clean" air. Helmet, deep
section front wheel, forks.

The rear disc is a fifth order effect. It spins in "dirty" air. Last is
the frame - goes through "dirty" air and doesn't spin.

So I'm guessing its better to spend a couple of grand removing
unnecessary body parts out in clean air -perhaps large ears as an
example, than wasting it on a TT frame. For a small minority on rbr,
thinking clean thoughts might have an impact. Just theorizing...

I just realized - I wasn't getting my nose broke, I was going aero.

Curtis L. Russell
Odenton, MD (USA)
Just someone on two wheels...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

Do you realize you are talking to yourself?

And like most who do so, he's not making any sense.

Andy Coggan

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Who you callin' a beginner! Slow maybe, but beginner not. My license
even says I'm a Cat3. (ok, so it expired 15 years ago...)

For what it's worth, I took some of the advice from the 10km TT thread
and applied way more effort than I had been previously. BIG
improvements. Holding my HR down to around LT resulted in about 23mph,
but hammering all I have got me to 14:52. That's over 40 km/h or just
over 25mph. That was also just me on the road, not at an arranged TT
event which might have given me a mental boost. Still on a regular
bike.

I appreciate you sentiments that there are lots of other very important
factors to time trialing other than aero equipment, and mastering those
first may be a good idea, but all the others at the races have the
gear, and I am left comparing apples to oranges.

I'm going to get clip on aero bars and work on a position. Anyone care
to guess how much they will help?

Joseph

Tom Kunich said:

ronaldo_jeremiah said:

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Makes sense to me.

Henry, "renaldo", Asher, RonSonic, Bret and Charles know where it's at!

Tom -

Kindly show where I advised anyone to acquire any piece of equipment
for any time trial.

Question: Why is your speed criterion dropping from 25 mph to 23 mph?

Also, note that my name is spelled Ronaldo.

Finally, thank you for acknowledging me as an 'expert.' I may not be
expert in as many areas as you (who is?), but it would be fair to say I
have some expertise in bicycle racing.

Why do you feel the need to hite your identity?

Ooohhh, very clever! So you're saying Ronaldo is REALLY:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shere_Hite

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Tom Kunich said:

Well, according to the group experts, a beginning racer who can't
average 23 mph on a ten kilometer flat course should run out and buy a
complete TT bike.

Who you callin' a beginner! Slow maybe, but beginner not. My license
even says I'm a Cat3. (ok, so it expired 15 years ago...)

For what it's worth, I took some of the advice from the 10km TT thread
and applied way more effort than I had been previously. BIG
improvements. Holding my HR down to around LT resulted in about 23mph,
but hammering all I have got me to 14:52. That's over 40 km/h or just
over 25mph. That was also just me on the road, not at an arranged TT
event which might have given me a mental boost. Still on a regular
bike.

I appreciate you sentiments that there are lots of other very important
factors to time trialing other than aero equipment, and mastering those
first may be a good idea, but all the others at the races have the
gear, and I am left comparing apples to oranges.

I'm going to get clip on aero bars and work on a position. Anyone care
to guess how much they will help?

Joseph

12%-15%

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Rear disc isn't that important.

The first order effect is spending a lot of time dialing in the
position. The body is, by far, the biggest component of drag.

Second order effects are anything that are in "clean" air. Helmet, deep
section front wheel, forks.

The rear disc is a fifth order effect. It spins in "dirty" air. Last is
the frame - goes through "dirty" air and doesn't spin.

Dumbass,

Although the rear wheel sees "dirty" air, the reduction in drag from
using a disk is essentially the same as from using an aero front wheel.
The frame is also far more important than you imply. Lastly, while the
human body, and hence your position, is the most important factor of
all (as you say), for a well-positioned rider the bicycle itself
accounts for about one-third of the overall drag. To ignore this fact
is Kunichish.

Andy Coggan

Kurgan Gringioni said:

Get used to making wattage in the bars.

thanks,

K. Gringioni.

Is "making wattage" a euphemism for picking up chicks?

Frankly, I don't see how spending more time in bars is going to improve
one's TT, though getting laid more often might help indirectly. It's
at least as good as any of Tom's advice so far.

-RJ

Ewoud Dronkert said:

Bret schreef:

Quoted message said:

equipment. How you are supposed to compete at this level (say 29 mph)
with a serious equipment disadvantage is not explained.

Time trialling is for pussies.

--
E. Dronkert

You'll get no argument from me. I'm more of a cyclocross specialist
myself now. I used some very bad judgement getting into a TT discussion
with Koach K.

Bret (who's racing a cross bike in an MTB hillclimb to 11,200 ft this
Sat)