SO, WHAT DOES CAUSE HEART DISEASE?

Al. Lohse said:

Please read:

http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2003_aug01.html

Any comments?

A. L.

Few comments:

(1) Dr. Kendrick is not an MD even though your web page cite lists him
as one.

(2) According to the only article by him in PubMed, he is biased about
insulin being the primary cause of atherosclerosis:

http://tinyurl.com/kqzj

(3) Dr. Kendrick left out a number of other things that have been shown
to damage endothelium. These include:

(a) Hypertension
(b) Oxidized LDL
(c) CRP
(d) LP(a)

and lists both high blood sugar and insulin as damaging to endothelium
(there really is not data to support this claim).

This skewed perspection is not surprising given (2)

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Al. Lohse said:

Thanks for the comments. Let us try to be a
little more accurate, since this subject is
difficult enough for most of us.

My comments are accurate.

Quoted message said:

It seems
like you are trying to casually discredit
this document and its writer. Are you?

Not casually, no.

Quoted message said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Al. Lohse said:

Please read:

http://www.redflagsweekly.com/kendrick/2003_aug01.html

Any comments?

A. L.

Few comments:

(1) Dr. Kendrick is not an MD even though your web page cite lists him
as one.

Certainly not *MY* website!

Your cite.

Quoted message said:

Can you establish whether or not he actually
is or ever was an MD?

According to his published article in Medical Hypotheses, he is not an MD.

Quoted message said:

Does anyone know what the credentials he uses
mean? They are: MALCOLM KENDRICK, MD, and
Malcolm Kendrick MbChB, MRCGP.

Perhaps the latter two are British
designations that encompass MD in North
America. (The British do quite well without
any professional engineers... they are
chartered engineers.)

Still would not be an MD.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(2) According to the only article by him in PubMed, he is biased about
insulin being the primary cause of atherosclerosis:

http://tinyurl.com/kqzj

Certainly anyone can get published in a
journal called "Medical Hypotheses" as long
as the hypothesis is well thought out,
reasoned, logical and makes abundant sense.
He includes 62 references with which he
formulated the hypothesis entitled: "Does
insulin resistance cause atherosclerosis in
the post-prandial period?".

References are not data.

Quoted message said:

A hypothesis is turned into reality *only* if
tests show overwhelmingly that the hypothesis
works. Am certain Dr. Kendrick is aware of
that.

A hypothesis is simply a hypothesis.

Quoted message said:

Sometimes, hypotheses are turned into reality
even if major tests are shown to disprove
them. It can be done if there is a dollar to
be made. Am certain Dr. Kendrick is aware of
that as well.

Quoted message said:

(3) Dr. Kendrick left out a number of other things that have been shown
to damage endothelium. These include:

(a) Hypertension

He touches on that:

Not enough, imo.

Quoted message said:

"Whether or not a raised blood pressure can
cause plaques to form is a moot point. One
can see that a high blood pressure may cause
endothelial damage, but the evidence from
blood pressure lowering trials shows zero
impact on the rate of death from CHD. So, I
think the jury is out on this one."

Actually, blood pressure lowering trials have shown a significant impact on
rate of death from coronary disease.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

(b) Oxidized LDL
(c) CRP
(d) LP(a)

LP(a) is included in the article. In the
phrase: "Raised lipoprotein (a) levels (a
clotting factor)"

LP(a) is *not* a clotting factor.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and lists both high blood sugar and insulin as damaging to endothelium
(there really is not data to support this claim).

This skewed perspection is not surprising given (2)

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

We are all in this together... let us try to
get it right. Please dig a little deeper.

A.L.

Most hypotheses are erroneous from the outset. Not sure what your agenda is
here.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
Most hypotheses are erroneous from the outset.

Hypotheses are starting points.

The hypothesis that cholesterol caused CHD
was all but disproved by a massively
expensive trial called MR FIT, The Multiple
Risk Factor Intervention Trial. It nearly
laid cholesterol considerations to rest by
disproving a very good hypothesis.
Unfortunate, but true. Would have been great
if it had found that cholesterol reduction
was a panacea for coronary heart disease, but
it failed to show that it helped at all.

MR FIT invalidated the cholesterol
hypothesis, quite handily.

What study invalidated the results of MR FIT?
None were larger. MR FIT is ignored.

Quoted message said:

Not sure what your agenda is
here.

Certainly not to make you look bad.

My agenda remains the same... to get a handle
on the cholesterol dichotomy. Dr. Kendrick
downplayed both the role of hypertension and
the role of cholesterol concentrations in his
article entitled, "SO, WHAT DOES CAUSE HEART
DISEASE?" That is why I asked for comments.

How am I or anyone like me to make sense of
this if the doctors cannot even agree? Not
interested in trying to determine which to
believe. Am interested in knowing the best
verifiable underlying knowledge in this
matter.

Also, there has been no mention of the role
of cholesterol ratio by either.

I guess Dr. Chung would and Dr. Kendrick
would not treat their own elevated
cholesterol levels or undesirable cholesterol
ratios (TC/HDL). What differing value systems
might motivate them?

Dr. Kendrick's quote:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Whether or not a raised blood pressure can
cause plaques to form is a moot point. One
can see that a high blood pressure may cause
endothelial damage, but the evidence from
blood pressure lowering trials shows zero
impact on the rate of death from CHD. So, I
think the jury is out on this one."

Dr. Chung replied:

Quoted message said:

Actually, blood pressure lowering trials have shown a significant impact on
rate of death from coronary disease.

Great! Now we have a hypertension dichotomy!
Can we not get it together?

A.L.

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Al. Lohse said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do cardiologists get less coronary heart disease than other
physicians, other medical specialists, other professionals,
and/or members of the general population?

That would be the general impression. One of my cardiology mentors died a

few years

Quoted message said:

back from colon cancer. Another of prostate cancer.

Dr. Atkins would be a possible notable exception (cardiac arrest last year

with the

Quoted message said:

suspicious fall leading to death this year) but he was economically

obsessed with

Quoted message said:

high-fat diets for weight loss (apparently subscribing to insulin rather

than

Quoted message said:

cholesterol being causative for atherosclerosis).

"ECONOMICALLY OBSESSED"???

Is this similar to 'entrepreneurial' or 'capitalistic'? Something like the
american dream?

Is profitability something that short-circuits medical knowledge?

Certainly, if making more money than the average person is the mark of a bad
doctor, then most are suspect.

And it is interesting that slipping on an icy sidewalk is termed
"suspicious"... hmmm.

Gosh, there seem to be more perjoratives per sentence in this newsgroup than
in the coverage of the California Recall Election.

JAMA just published some interesting facts:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/290/7/921

"CONCLUSION: Conclusions in trials funded by for-profit organizations may be
more positive due to biased interpretation of trial results. Readers should
carefully evaluate whether conclusions in randomized trials are supported by
data. "

This thread is a perfect example of how those who are pro-wonder drug attack
and denigrate publicly funded trials that clearly show the drug is not a
wonder drug. Now we see the ad hominem attack on the defensless dead.

What is professional about these opinions?

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Al. Lohse said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Do cardiologists get less coronary heart disease than other
physicians, other medical specialists, other professionals,
and/or members of the general population?

That would be the general impression. One of my cardiology mentors died a

few years

Quoted message said:

back from colon cancer. Another of prostate cancer.

Dr. Atkins would be a possible notable exception (cardiac arrest last year

with the

Quoted message said:

suspicious fall leading to death this year) but he was economically

obsessed with

Quoted message said:

high-fat diets for weight loss (apparently subscribing to insulin rather

than

Quoted message said:

cholesterol being causative for atherosclerosis).

"ECONOMICALLY OBSESSED"???

Is this similar to 'entrepreneurial' or 'capitalistic'?

No.

Quoted message said:

Something like the
american dream?

No.

Quoted message said:

Is profitability something that short-circuits medical knowledge?

No. Money from diet book and diet bar sales may color judgement, however.

Quoted message said:

Certainly, if making more money than the average person is the mark of a bad
doctor, then most are suspect.

Depends on how one makes that money.

Quoted message said:

And it is interesting that slipping on an icy sidewalk is termed
"suspicious"... hmmm.

Slipping on an icy sidewalk is not suspicious.

Dying from simply slipping on an icy sidewalk, however, is suspicious.
Especially with the additional h/o of a cardiac arrest just the year before and
a reported severe cardiomyopathy that was not treated with the best treatment
available (an AICD).

Quoted message said:

Gosh, there seem to be more perjoratives per sentence in this newsgroup than
in the coverage of the California Recall Election.

JAMA just published some interesting facts:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/290/7/921

"CONCLUSION: Conclusions in trials funded by for-profit organizations may

The important word here is *may*

Quoted message said:

be
more positive due to biased interpretation of trial results. Readers should
carefully evaluate whether conclusions in randomized trials are supported by
data. "

Duh. This latter statement applies to all trial results irrespective of funding
source.

Quoted message said:

This thread is a perfect example of how those who are pro-wonder drug attack
and denigrate publicly funded trials that clearly show the drug is not a
wonder drug. Now we see the ad hominem attack on the defensless dead.

You sound emotionally overwrought here.

Quoted message said:

What is professional about these opinions?

Opinions are simply that. They are not ad hominems.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Hello,

Bob Cardone said:

The only definitive cause of his death would be proved by an Autopsy
in my opinion, and apparently there was not one performed, which is
sort of strange, isn't it?

The surgeons who removed the clot from his brain got a darn good look at
him. It would have been strange if an autopsy *had* been ordered. The
cause of death was apparent, and no foul play was suspected. Not
everyone who dies is autopsied. If the cause of death is unknown, or
suspicious it might be ordered. A family can request one, and pay for
it themselves. An insurance company isn't going to shell out more money
unnecessarily. The percentage of patients' bodies that undergo autopsy
when the law isn't involved had dropped to 6% by 1994 according to the
College of American Pathologists:
http://www.cap.org/media/MediaInfo/newsrel_ahrqautopsy.htm

Carmen

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Slipping on an icy sidewalk is not suspicious.

Dying from simply slipping on an icy sidewalk, however, is suspicious.
Especially with the additional h/o of a cardiac arrest just the year before and
a reported severe cardiomyopathy that was not treated with the best treatment
available (an AICD).

Perhaps you should alert the National Enquirer or other Tabloids, because
you seem to know something that was not included in the stated cause of
death.

http://12.42.224.168/HealthNews/reuters/NewsStory0417200324.htm
"Spokesman Richard Rothstein said Atkins, 72, died at 11:01 a.m. EDT in the
Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York, where he was admitted on April 8
after falling and hitting his head on an icy sidewalk.
Atkins underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went into
a coma and died more than a week later from complications, Rothstein said...

"The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in a
statement."

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
what _really_ happened.

In article <zuQ1b.238235$uu5.48589@sccrnsc04>,

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Dr. Atkins would be a possible notable exception (cardiac arrest last year with the
suspicious fall leading to death this year) but he was economically obsessed with
high-fat diets for weight loss (apparently subscribing to insulin rather than
cholesterol being causative for atherosclerosis).

"ECONOMICALLY OBSESSED"???

Is this similar to 'entrepreneurial' or 'capitalistic'? Something like the
american dream?

Is profitability something that short-circuits medical knowledge?

Certainly, if making more money than the average person is the mark of a bad
doctor, then most are suspect.

You seem to think so, vis-a-vis big pharma and statins. Are you saying
Dr. Atkins no better? Or are you giving him a pass?

Quoted message said:

And it is interesting that slipping on an icy sidewalk is termed
"suspicious"... hmmm.

It is "suspicious" if you ask the question: Did Dr. Atkins' diet
contribute to his own death? I don't think anyone's bothered to
come up with the answer (for good reason). I could be wrong, though,
I haven't kept up with this story.

Quoted message said:

JAMA just published some interesting facts:

http://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/content/abstract/290/7/921

"CONCLUSION: Conclusions in trials funded by for-profit organizations may be
more positive due to biased interpretation of trial results. Readers should
carefully evaluate whether conclusions in randomized trials are supported by
data. "

Unlike the studies done by not-for-profit organizations, whose
conclusions we should accept as articles of faith?

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,

Sharon Hope said:

Atkins, 72, died at 11:01 a.m. EDT in the
Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York, where he was admitted on April 8
after falling and hitting his head on an icy sidewalk.

I'm just praying I make it to 72 to slip and fall on the ice... Heart or
ice, he lived almost an average male life span. I'm sure many of us hope
for the same.

Owen Lowe <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,

Sharon Hope said:

Atkins, 72, died at 11:01 a.m. EDT in the
Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York, where he was admitted on April 8
after falling and hitting his head on an icy sidewalk.

I'm just praying I make it to 72 to slip and fall on the ice... Heart or
ice, he lived almost an average male life span. I'm sure many of us hope
for the same.

72? That's all? Heck, if I'm going to pray I'm going for 82 and
falling on a 22 year old blonde. 🙂

Mel

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,

Sharon Hope said:

"The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in a
statement."

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
what _really_ happened.

Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an autopsy
to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins' success
and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are on
the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who are
stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is extremely
small.

And his supporters and advocates may have a financial or emotional
incentive in leaving well enough alone. Look, autopsy or no autopsy,
it makes no difference to me. But anyone who says his diet did or did
not contribute to his death doesn't have the evidence to back it up.
(If anyone does have any real evidence, please come forward and settle
this issue once and for all.)

Doesn't the Atkins Diet itself rely on a "pet theory". I mean, his
diet hasn't been subject to any rigorous testing has it? The theory
that underpins his diet is, at this point, just a theory isn't it?

There are two big caveats I feel I need to point out. I'm assuming
that Dr. Atkins was on the Atkins Diet and that, in fact, no autopsy
was done. If I'm wrong on either point somebody let me know and I
take back everything I said on this matter.

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,
"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
> "The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
> occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> statement."
>

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal

episode,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never

know

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what _really_ happened.

Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an

autopsy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins'

success

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is

extremely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

small.

And his supporters and advocates may have a financial or emotional
incentive in leaving well enough alone. Look, autopsy or no autopsy,
it makes no difference to me. But anyone who says his diet did or did
not contribute to his death doesn't have the evidence to back it up.
(If anyone does have any real evidence, please come forward and settle
this issue once and for all.)

Well, the facts are that he was on a low carb diet for YEARS and there was
no
evidence of coronary artery disease up to the time of his fall. If someone
can prove
otherwise, let them so state.

The facts are that there are MANY on the low carb diet and there are years
of data.
It is more than ust a theory.

If you are still one who is a conspiracy theorists, one could say that
because of Dr. Atkins
success and his rocking the boat on conventional thinking, that there may
have been
someone who caused his death - like pushing him or various other means. No,
I don't
believe this but I don't believe the other made up [censored] either.

Quoted message said:

Doesn't the Atkins Diet itself rely on a "pet theory". I mean, his
diet hasn't been subject to any rigorous testing has it? The theory
that underpins his diet is, at this point, just a theory isn't it?

Facts are that the diet has been studied and while there were many who
condemened the
diet earlier, there are many who have now made an about face. This includes
people from
all over the world.

Quoted message said:

There are two big caveats I feel I need to point out. I'm assuming
that Dr. Atkins was on the Atkins Diet and that, in fact, no autopsy
was done. If I'm wrong on either point somebody let me know and I
take back everything I said on this matter.

Another thing you should consider; if Dr. Atkins already had coronary artery
disease
prior to his starting the low carb diet, did his diet contribute to or
advance the condition.
This is something that I think would be impossible to ascertain, even with
an autopsy.
Most of us have some degree of narrowing of our arteries with age regardless
of diet.
Heart attacks often occur by blockage in an artery that is not as severely
blocked as others.

If someone who is on the Two Pound Diet as proposed by the individual who
calls himself Dr. Chung, falls, has a head injury and dies, are you going to
ask for an autopsy?

"Paul E. Lehmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
>
> Slipping on an icy sidewalk is not suspicious.
>
> Dying from simply slipping on an icy sidewalk, however, is suspicious.
> Especially with the additional h/o of a cardiac arrest just the year

before and

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> a reported severe cardiomyopathy that was not treated with the best

treatment

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> available (an AICD).
>

Perhaps you should alert the National Enquirer or other Tabloids,

because

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

you seem to know something that was not included in the stated cause of
death.

http://12.42.224.168/HealthNews/reuters/NewsStory0417200324.htm
"Spokesman Richard Rothstein said Atkins, 72, died at 11:01 a.m. EDT in

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York, where he was admitted on April

8

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

after falling and hitting his head on an icy sidewalk.
Atkins underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went

into

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

a coma and died more than a week later from complications, Rothstein

said...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in a
statement."

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
what _really_ happened.

Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an autopsy
to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins' success
and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are on
the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who are
stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is extremely
small.

I would guess that you have may have put your finger on Dr. Chung's
motivation for hinting that there was a coverup concerning Dr. Atkins'
death. I had a similar exchange with him in which he questioned
whether a subdural hematoma could have caused death. I then directed
him to a reference on the Internet from an expert on emergency
medicine.

Note that Chung has nothing to back up his claim that Weill-Cornell
falsified Dr. Atkins' cause of death except for sheer speculation.
You would think that someone who constantly threatens others with
lawsuits would be a bit more circumspect in leveling serious charges
of medical fraud.

You would also think that a responsible physician would think twice
and check his/her facts. carefully.

"Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Al. Lohse said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
>
> "Al. Lohse" wrote:
>
> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

What role does TYPE A personality play in heart health?

squash players
runners
debaters
hyper-competitive anything....

MFG

"Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Al. Lohse said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
>
> "Al. Lohse" wrote:
>
> > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

but this does introduce

Quoted message said:

something new into the equation.

What if it's not HDL or LDL at all. Since many who die of heart
disease don't have high cholesterol at all--what part does personality
play?

Does competitiveness kill? Does pushing and not knowing when to quit
kill? I remember reading about a man who was in Ornish's program, he
ate well, exercised very competitively...and died shortly after
finishing it. He was 40ish, lean, tall and exercised regularly. But,
they could not make him slow down. I am not talking about stress, but
competitiveness the way it is expressed in our culture especially for
men: Raid the North, beyond marathons, a million before you're 40 and
more. And for those who don't 'achieve' that there is still daily
competitiveness. It's the ethic.

It's not the hdl at all. MFG

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Probably is if you infer from the latter citation.

That is a hasty inference, don't you think?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the last question can be answered in the affirmative,
then there is evidence that statin therapy works outside of
industry funded clinical trials. We can only hope that that
is the case.

Statins do increase HDL.

Is the drug induced, artificial, increase in HDL going to
give us the same benefit as the activity induced one? From
my observation above, I guess the answer is: very doubtful.

Also, most people with coronary heart disease have grey
hair. Would dying the grey away improve heart health? From
my observation above, I guess the answer is: very doubtful.

A.L.

P.S. There was a professional squash player around here. I
remember him giving a TV interview when he was about 48
years old and I was thinking that his cholesterol levels
must be close to perfect, a picture of health. Yep, massive
coronary in early fifties... he bought the farm.

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

"Al. Lohse" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

P.S. There was a professional squash player around here. I
remember him giving a TV interview when he was about 48
years old and I was thinking that his cholesterol levels
must be close to perfect, a picture of health. Yep, massive
coronary in early fifties... he bought the farm.

Goes to show that exercise is not enough. Would not be surprised to
learn he had a horrible lipid profile *despite* the physical fitness.
Perhaps he would still be alive today had he been on a statin.

Or dead from Rhabdomyolysis. Athletes who get the myopathy adverse effects
from statins tend to try to exercise beyond the limit of the 20 minutes of
ATP in the cells. When the OxPhos exchange fails to work because of
mitochondrial damage due to the statin-induced CoQ10 deficiency, the cell
sustains damage or apoptosis, or, if it survives, sucks in Calcium and loses
Carnitine. CK elevates and, if it continues to elevate, the liver and
kidneys go, and Rhabdomyolysis claims another victim. Remember, Baycol had
the highest number of Rhabdo deaths, but all statins were involved. Zocor
and Lipitor had the next highest number of rhabdo deaths and they just keep
on selling.

[email hidden] (mfg) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

"Al. Lohse" wrote:

> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
> >
> > "Al. Lohse" wrote:
> >
> > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

but this does introduce

Quoted message said:

something new into the equation.

What if it's not HDL or LDL at all. Since many who die of heart
disease don't have high cholesterol at all--what part does personality
play?

Does competitiveness kill? Does pushing and not knowing when to quit
kill? I remember reading about a man who was in Ornish's program, he
ate well, exercised very competitively...and died shortly after
finishing it. He was 40ish, lean, tall and exercised regularly. But,
they could not make him slow down. I am not talking about stress, but
competitiveness the way it is expressed in our culture especially for
men: Raid the North, beyond marathons, a million before you're 40 and
more. And for those who don't 'achieve' that there is still daily
competitiveness. It's the ethic.

It's not the hdl at all. MFG

I found it interesting that Ornish "blamed the patient" for this one
failure on his program. The man followed Ornish's "hard"
recommendations to the letter, avoiding all fat and exercising like
mad; he just couldn't adapt to the "soft" requirements, like the group
therapy and meditation.

Ornish obviously had to come up with some explanation as to why the
patient died prematurely of a heart attack. Or else his "low-fat"
doctrine would fall into question.

One thing about the Ornish program and his research is that he does
not separate his low-fat regimen from the "open your heart"
touchy-feely stuff. The problem with the latter is how subjective it
is; eg., how do you know when you are being "too competitive"?

Finally, the evidence of any link between psychological states and
heart disease is very weak and uneven (and I would guess that this is
partly due to the inherent difficulty of measuring the former in an
objective way).

Regards,

Martin Graham

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>

Probably is if you infer from the latter citation.

That is a hasty inference, don't you think?

Quoted message said:

>
> If the last question can be answered in the affirmative,
> then there is evidence that statin therapy works outside of
> industry funded clinical trials. We can only hope that that
> is the case.

Statins do increase HDL.

Is the drug induced, artificial, increase in HDL going to
give us the same benefit as the activity induced one? From
my observation above, I guess the answer is: very doubtful.

Also, most people with coronary heart disease have grey
hair. Would dying the grey away improve heart health? From
my observation above, I guess the answer is: very doubtful.

A.L.

P.S. There was a professional squash player around here. I
remember him giving a TV interview when he was about 48
years old and I was thinking that his cholesterol levels
must be close to perfect, a picture of health. Yep, massive
coronary in early fifties... he bought the farm.

[email hidden] (Martin L. Graham) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (mfg) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
>
> "Al. Lohse" wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
> > >
> > > "Al. Lohse" wrote:
> > >
> > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

but this does introduce

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

something new into the equation.

What if it's not HDL or LDL at all. Since many who die of heart
disease don't have high cholesterol at all--what part does personality
play?

Does competitiveness kill? Does pushing and not knowing when to quit
kill? I remember reading about a man who was in Ornish's program, he
ate well, exercised very competitively...and died shortly after
finishing it. He was 40ish, lean, tall and exercised regularly. But,
they could not make him slow down. I am not talking about stress, but
competitiveness the way it is expressed in our culture especially for
men: Raid the North, beyond marathons, a million before you're 40 and
more. And for those who don't 'achieve' that there is still daily
competitiveness. It's the ethic.

It's not the hdl at all. MFG

I found it interesting that Ornish "blamed the patient" for this one
failure on his program. The man followed Ornish's "hard"
recommendations to the letter, avoiding all fat and exercising like
mad; he just couldn't adapt to the "soft" requirements, like the group
therapy and meditation.

The man did not follow Ornish's program. He entered it under the
urging of his cardiologist and wife and his own expressed wish to live
and acknowledgment his lifestyle was killing him. For him and others
like him, the 'prescription' of the Ornish program was to slow down.
He could not, because of his personality. His wife talked about how
his urge to compete, in business and sport (running, marathons,
training) would kill him. In the television documentary about Ornish's
program, and this man's struggle, he expressed a wish to live, but an
inability to live any other way but his highly competitive lifestyle.
He was a successful businessman, top of his field, innovative and
driven.

What causes heart disease? What role do personality,
hyper-competitevness, drive to succeed in an artificial world and a
constant flush of adrenaline play in inflammation and atherosclerosis?

MFG

Paul E. Lehmann said:

<snip>

This has largely been discussed earlier in another thread.

Quoted message said:

Economically obsessed with diets - Hmmm wonder if the two pound diet
originator falls in this category also.

Nope. This should be obvious to the most casual observer.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/