SO, WHAT DOES CAUSE HEART DISEASE?

Paul E. Lehmann said:

Careful, Andy, your credibility is sinking to new lows.

Doubtful.

Quoted message said:

Keep on talking.

You mean writing.

Quoted message said:

The credibility hole you are digging is getting deeper and
deeper.

That hole would be your imagination.

Quoted message said:

I think you should publish your theory in some prestigious medical journals
AND in the local news media.

Which theory might that be?

Quoted message said:

Why don't you request an appearance on
national TV to discuss your theory of Dr. Atkins Death.

Is that how the media works?

Quoted message said:

In my opinion you
will NEVER be the man or man of science that Dr. Atkins was.

That would be easy because Dr. Atkins wasn't a man of science. Diet guru,
yes.... scientist, no.

Quoted message said:

I think you
may have a case of extreme jealousy.

What happened to your theory that I am in it for the money?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Martin L. Graham said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Martin L. Graham said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
> "Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> news:[email hidden]...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

> > But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
> > brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
> > to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
> > what _really_ happened.
>
> Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an autopsy
> to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
> doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins' success
> and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
> Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are on
> the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who are
> stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is extremely
> small.

I would guess that you have may have put your finger on Dr. Chung's
motivation for hinting that there was a coverup concerning Dr. Atkins'
death.

Are you suggesting that had it been proven by autopsy that Dr. Atkin's had severe ischemic
cardiomyopathy and that this was the likely contributor to the fall that led to his death that this
would mean more economic gain for me? If you are, you are going to have to produce that 2PD book
and/or related knick-knacks.

Since you have no factual basis for your rank speculations, there must
be some other motivation.

My professional experience would be factual. My speculations arise from my clinical experience with cardiac
syncope. As for motivation, I enjoy figuring things out.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had a similar exchange with him in which he questioned
whether a subdural hematoma could have caused death. I then directed
him to a reference on the Internet from an expert on emergency
medicine.

We did discuss your reference. The conclusion remains that a subdural hematoma (SDH) is at the
most an uncommon way to die though I would still assert based on my emergency medicine experience
at a large county hospital, that dying from an isolated and timely treated SDH is rare.

You began by claiming that I had confused SDH as a cause of death with
something else;

If you had continued to assert that SDH is a common cause of death, you would be confusing it with a *subarachnoid*
hemorrhage.

Quoted message said:

you then backed off from "rare" to "uncommon".

It remains rare, ime.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Note that Chung has nothing to back up his claim that Weill-Cornell
falsified Dr. Atkins' cause of death except for sheer speculation.

Because there was not autopsy, there is no proof one way or another. As discussed earlier in
another thread, this does leave things open to speculation.

There was a death certificate.

Not the same thing.

Quoted message said:

That establishes an official cause of
death under the law.

Official causes are not necessarily true causes.

Quoted message said:

Autopsies are done when a crime is suspected or
under other special circumstances, none of which include "a demand by
Dr. Andrew Chung."

Autopsies are done to remove all doubt one way or another. Don't you think that the Atkin's foundation owes that to
the public especially to the hapless folks who are trying this WOE?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You would think that someone who constantly threatens others with
lawsuits would be a bit more circumspect in leveling serious charges
of medical fraud.

Fyi, I've done more than threaten.

Good for you. Then you should know how irresponsible your statements
about Dr. Atkins are.

Notes of caution are not irresponsible.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You would also think that a responsible physician would think twice
and check his/her facts. carefully.

I have.

Don't think so, as is further established by this latest message.

Sorry, but I have.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Owen Lowe said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Martin L. Graham) said:

You began by claiming that I had confused SDH as a cause of death with
something else; you then backed off from "rare" to "uncommon".

And, both "rare" and "uncommon" don't mean impossible. Atkins could have
been that 1 in a thousand, ten-thousand, or what ever. Many folks
experience rarities in life - it only takes one.

So why not have an autopsy to remove all doubt one way or another?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carmen said:

Hello,
On 23-Aug-2003, Bob Cardone <[email hidden]> wrote:

> The only definitive cause of his death would be proved by an Autopsy
> in my opinion, and apparently there was not one performed, which is
> sort of strange, isn't it?

The surgeons who removed the clot from his brain got a darn good look at
him.

Not really. Removing the subdural hematoma only required drilling a

little

Quoted message said:

burr hole. Typically neurosurgeons will not look elsewhere.

That comment reminds me of cardiologists who typically will not look into
muscle complaints from patients taking statins.

Typically the prescribing physician whether it be cardiologist, internist, or GP
will look into adverse reactions from the prescribed medication. Sorry that was
not the case with your husband. However, it sounds like your husband's case has
been atypical.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Owen Lowe said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Given Dr. Atkins history of recent cardiac arrest, the cause of the "slip"
leading to severe head injuries that resulted in death is less than certain.

Let's say that Atkins *did* have cardiac issues that led to his death...
So what?

Would mean greater scepticism regarding the long term safety of his WOE.

Quoted message said:

He lived to 72 and who knows how long he may have lived without
his diet or for that matter if he had implemented someone else's.

Dr. Pritikin's coronaries were reportedly clean as a whistle at his autopsy.

Quoted message said:

If his diet is as bad as many think - and was a contributing factor in
his death - it still does nothing to seal the fate of his methods.

It would cast a bad shadow on it.

Quoted message said:

He
lived to the neighborhood of the average male lifespan while following
his way of eating for 30 years. If it was a timebomb diet, then he
shouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long.

A timebomb diet, imo, is one that would cut short a man's life by more than 10
years. For all we know, Dr. Atkins would have lived more than an additional 30
yrs had he not been using his WOE.

Quoted message said:

Yes Dr. Chung, an autopsy would have been interesting and a curiosity
just from a medical point of view in relation to his teachings, but IMO,
it has little bearing on the safety of his diet (see above).

Sorry, have to disagree here. See above.

Quoted message said:

If the
autopsy results showed advanced build up, what does that tell you?

That the Atkin's diet should be avoided until proven safe.

Quoted message said:

If it
had showed little build up, how would you respond to that as well?

That the Atkin's diet is probably safe.

Quoted message said:

One last thought... one person's situation (Dr. Atkins'😉 does not a
medical certainty make.

Correct. However, it is enough to cast something into doubt.

Quoted message said:

Whether he suffered from cardio problems or not
doesn't mean squat for the rest of us - maybe he was that
one-in-a-thousand who didn't benefit from his own ideas - maybe he was
that one-in-a-thousand who was immune to the timebomb of a diet he
espoused - maybe he was that one-in-a-thousand who slipped on the ice
and died from his injuries.

So why not remove all doubt one way or another with an autopsy?

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Carmen said:

Good morning,
On 25-Aug-2003, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Carmen said:

Hello,
On 23-Aug-2003, Bob Cardone <[email hidden]> wrote:

> The only definitive cause of his death would be proved by an
> Autopsy in my opinion, and apparently there was not one performed,
> which
> is sort of strange, isn't it?

The surgeons who removed the clot from his brain got a darn good
look at him.

Not really. Removing the subdural hematoma only required drilling a
little burr hole. Typically neurosurgeons will not look elsewhere.

So if one of your patients died you wouldn't have a CAT scan done of
their head to ensure that they didn't die of a brain aneurysm instead of
heart failure? Not your area so I guess not....

CAT scans aren't typically done on dead folks. If there is uncertainty
about why someone has died, the appropriate post-mortem test is an autopsy.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would have been strange if an autopsy *had* been ordered.

It is my understanding that Dr. Pritikin specified in his will that an
autopsy be performed to check on his coronary arteries at the time of
his death. That autopsy was performed and revealed complete
regression of
the known atherosclerosis he had.

Last time I checked Dr. Atkins and Dr. Pritikin were two completely
different people.

They are.

Quoted message said:

Do all your patients behave in exactly the same way,
and express exactly the same desires and (just to take this to the
logical endpoint) respond equally well to the same therapies?

No.

Quoted message said:

Even if
an autopsy had been done, and even if they'd found significant
atherosclerotic plaques - heck even if they'd found that he'd had a
cardiac event that precipitated his fall - what would that prove?

See my earlier response to a similar question in the same thread.

Quoted message said:

David
Lettermen is a poster boy for the AHA's "healthy lifestyle" and still
requires regular bypasses to keep him alive.

It is reported that he loves to eat chocolate.

Quoted message said:

BTW, I'd be shocked if a
few CPKs hadn't been run on that man (Atkins) in an attempt to track the
amount of brain tissue destruction - which means they'd have to
fractionate it and cardiac damage would have shown up in neon.

Perhaps it did. However, cardiogenic syncope may not cause elevated CPK-MB.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The cause of death was apparent, and no foul play was suspected.
Not
everyone who dies is autopsied. If the cause of death is unknown,
or suspicious it might be ordered.

Given Dr. Atkins history of recent cardiac arrest, the cause of the
"slip" leading to severe head injuries that resulted in death is less
than
certain.

Uh huh. <G> What with the ice and all I could see how a reasonable
person might conclude that a 72 year old man's reflexes ought to have
been enough to make death due to the above circumstances somehow worthy
of investigation.

A 72 yo man walking daily to work taking the same route he always takes ...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A family can request one, and pay for
it themselves. An insurance company isn't going to shell out more
money unnecessarily. The percentage of patients' bodies that
undergo
autopsy when the law isn't involved had dropped to 6% by 1994
according to
the College of American Pathologists:
http://www.cap.org/media/MediaInfo/newsrel_ahrqautopsy.htm

Carmen

The Atkins family probably would not have requested an autopsy unless
a doctor was compelled to write on the death certificate that there
was
a cardiac cause.

So, do you think the family paid off the doctor who signed the death
certificate, or do you think a secret cabal is involved?

This would be outside my professional experience on the topic.

Quoted message said:

The beef
industry perhaps? That "Got Milk?" campaign looks mighty suspicious to
me. The dairy and beef industries could be in cahoots with the
pharmaceutical industry, and maybe Atkins was their "front man". Yes,
it all begins to come together now.....

Why not remove all doubt and speculations with an autopsy? He can be
exhumed.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Carmen said:

Hello again,
In light of the recent discussions concerning the late Dr. Atkins'
death, I went looking for some stats. Below are some relevant excerpts
and the links they came from:
http://www.nsc.org/library/rept2000.htm
Deaths and Injuries in the Community
The 19,000 fatalities in 2001 include deaths in public places or places
used in a public way and not involving motor vehicles. Most sports,
recreation, and transportation deaths are included. This number excludes
work-related deaths.
Therre is a public fatal injury every 28 minutes and a disabling injury
every 5 seconds.
The number of public unintentional-injury deaths decreased by 900, or
5%, between 2000 and 2001.
The five leading fatal causes are falls, poisoning, drowning,
suffocation by ingestion, and air, water and railroad transportation.
People 65 and over suffer almost half of the fatalities due to public
injuries.
Recreational boating resulted in 701 deaths in 2000. Alcohol was
reported to be involved in 215 (31%) of recreational boating deaths.
445 boating fatalities in 2000 could have been avoided if the victim had
been wearing a life jacket.
********************************************************
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3225/7_61/61432995/p1/article.jhtml
Epidemiology of Falls in the Elderly
From 1992 through 1995, 147 million injury-related visits were made to
emergency departments in the United States.(1) Falls were the leading
cause of external injury, accounting for 24 percent of these visits.1
Emergency department visits related to falls are more common in children
less than five years of age and adults 65 years of age and older.
Compared with children, elderly persons who fall are 10 times more
likely to be hospitalized and eight times more likely to die as the
result of a fall.(2)
Trauma is the fifth leading cause of death in persons more than 65 years
of age,(3) and falls are responsible for 70 percent of accidental deaths
in persons 75 years of age and older. The elderly, who represent 12
percent of the population, account for 75 percent of deaths from
falls.(4) The number of falls increases progressively with age in both
sexes and all racial and ethnic groups.(5) The injury rate for falls is
highest among persons 85 years of age and older (e.g., 171 deaths per
100,000 white men in this age group).(6)
*****************************************************************
http://www.rehabpub.com/ltrehab/112001/3.asp
Statistics Are Grim
The statistics are sobering. Approximately 35% of people over the age of
65 years experience one or more falls each year.1 Nearly 70% of all
emergency department visits by people over the age of 75 are related to
falls.2 Although the home is often considered the safest place, this is
not true. More than 60% of falls occur in the home.3 As the population
in the United States continues to age, preventing falls is paramount to
keeping health costs down and preventing further disability of the
elderly.
*****************************************************************
Finally, David Brinkley also died of "...complications from a fall, ABC
News said...". Or *did* he?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/12/national/main558326.shtml
Dr. Chung, what's your take on his death?
Take care,
Carmen

Not enough details in the link provided regarding either the circumstances
of the fall or the injuries sustained.
Sorry.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Quoted message said:

Owen Lowe said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Martin L. Graham) said:

You began by claiming that I had confused SDH as a cause of death with
something else; you then backed off from "rare" to "uncommon".

And, both "rare" and "uncommon" don't mean impossible. Atkins could have
been that 1 in a thousand, ten-thousand, or what ever. Many folks
experience rarities in life - it only takes one.

MD/PhD said:

So why not have an autopsy to remove all doubt one way or another?

Why not? My belief is was absolutely, positively incumbent on Atkins
to do so. He made millions, affected other people's health immensely
and, in the end, he crapped out. Flat crapped out.

I hope his casket and vault leak sewer water.

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

Careful, Andy, your credibility is sinking to new lows.

Doubtful.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Keep on talking.

You mean writing.

I assume you also talk but I could be wrong - or maybe you do not say the
same things you write.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The credibility hole you are digging is getting deeper and
deeper.

That hole would be your imagination.

Cute but not even close. You seem to have a pretty good imagination
yourself. In fact, I believe your imagination supercedes whatever
scientific skills you may possess.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you should publish your theory in some prestigious medical

journals

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

AND in the local news media.

Which theory might that be?

You sure can play dumb; or are you playing?

Come on Andy, you have stated that his fall was most likely due to a
coronary event.
Do you now deny inferring such? If "probably or most likely triggered by a
coronary event" is not your position, please state your position more
precisely.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why don't you request an appearance on
national TV to discuss your theory of Dr. Atkins Death.

Is that how the media works?

Come on Andy, think of the publicity you could garner for yourself (an
alleged "Board Certified Cardiologist"😉. You could also promote your two
pound diet. If you put in enough language about jesus, god and your
religious convictions, I am sure you could convince at least some of the
people.

It is easy for you to give a snow job on newsgroups and hide behind your
alleged Dr. and "Board Certified Cardiologist" title. It is time to go big
time and go national. You could at least publish your doubts and concerns
in the national papers. A "Certified Cardiologist" should get the attention
of some publishers. This could launch your career as a diet guru. Your ego
would swell. Your suporters would do more than admire you; they would
worship you. After all, that is what you really want, isn't it.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In my opinion you
will NEVER be the man or man of science that Dr. Atkins was.

That would be easy because Dr. Atkins wasn't a man of science. Diet guru,
yes.... scientist, no.

That is your opinion. Opinions are like watches. Everyone has them but
none are exactly the same. I think, however, that it is time for you to set
you watch and calendar to the 21st Century.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you
may have a case of extreme jealousy.

What happened to your theory that I am in it for the money?

Are you saying they are mutually exclusive?

Quoted message said:

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist???????????????????????????????????

Paul E. Lehmann said:

<babbling snipped>

Quoted message said:

Come on Andy, you have stated that his fall was most likely due to a
coronary event.

Go ahead and cite the post.

Quoted message said:

Do you now deny inferring such?

Yes.

Quoted message said:

If "probably or most likely triggered by a
coronary event" is not your position, please state your position more
precisely.

See my earlier post(s).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Why don't you request an appearance on
national TV to discuss your theory of Dr. Atkins Death.

Is that how the media works?

Come on Andy, think of the publicity you could garner for yourself (an
alleged "Board Certified Cardiologist"😉.

Don't really need to be busier. Sorry to disappoint you.

Yes, I am board-certified in cardiology (and internal medicine).

Quoted message said:

You could also promote your two
pound diet.

To what end, pray tell?

Quoted message said:

If you put in enough language about jesus, god and your
religious convictions, I am sure you could convince at least some of the
people.

My speculating about Dr. Atkin's death is warranted because it remains unclear
why he fell especially given his cardiac arrest before. I doubt that Jesus/God
was involved in Dr. Atkin's death.

Quoted message said:

It is easy for you to give a snow job on newsgroups and hide behind your
alleged Dr. and "Board Certified Cardiologist" title.

Not hiding. I will not seek the publicity. However, *if* a news reported
interviewed me about my thoughts regarding Dr. Atkin's death, I would say the
same things that I have written here.

Quoted message said:

It is time to go big
time and go national.

If it is the Lord's will, yes.

Quoted message said:

You could at least publish your doubts and concerns
in the national papers.

To what end?

Quoted message said:

A "Certified Cardiologist" should get the attention
of some publishers.

Perhaps. See above.

Quoted message said:

This could launch your career as a diet guru.

Not one of my career goals. Sorry to disappoint you.

Quoted message said:

Your ego
would swell.

Actually it wouldn't. Really couldn't care less about it.

Quoted message said:

Your suporters would do more than admire you; they would
worship you.

Don't believe in idolatry. Kind of against my religious beliefs as a Christian.

Quoted message said:

After all, that is what you really want, isn't it.

See above.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In my opinion you
will NEVER be the man or man of science that Dr. Atkins was.

That would be easy because Dr. Atkins wasn't a man of science. Diet guru,
yes.... scientist, no.

That is your opinion. Opinions are like watches. Everyone has them but
none are exactly the same. I think, however, that it is time for you to set
you watch and calendar to the 21st Century.

In the 21st Century, Dr. Atkin's will return to being dust rather than diet
guru.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I think you
may have a case of extreme jealousy.

What happened to your theory that I am in it for the money?

Are you saying they are mutually exclusive?

I am saying you are changing your tune.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist???????????????????????????????????

Yes, board-certified. You can even pull up a JPEG of the certificate on my web
site, if you choose.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Variations On Mu <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Owen Lowe said:

In article <[email hidden]>,
[email hidden] (Martin L. Graham) wrote:

> You began by claiming that I had confused SDH as a cause of death with
> something else; you then backed off from "rare" to "uncommon".

And, both "rare" and "uncommon" don't mean impossible. Atkins could have
been that 1 in a thousand, ten-thousand, or what ever. Many folks
experience rarities in life - it only takes one.

MD/PhD said:

So why not have an autopsy to remove all doubt one way or another?

Why not? My belief is was absolutely, positively incumbent on Atkins
to do so. He made millions, affected other people's health immensely
and, in the end, he crapped out. Flat crapped out.

I hope his casket and vault leak sewer water.

Oh, you are so right. How dare a 72-year-old man die! What a
betrayal.

And I have to admire the charm and sophistication you display in
making that point, Mu/Mel/Roose/Chung: "Flat crapped out"! What wit!

Hmmm... if I were one of the many employees, owners or partners -- or
indeed heirs to the Atkins fortune -- I would much prefer that no
autopsy took place. As long as there is any doubt, people will keep
trying the Aktins diet. In other words:

1) If there was an autopsy and it was positive (he was healthy), great
-- more book sales.
2) If there was an autopsy and it was negative (that his heart and
arteries were under stress), damn -- no more book sales.

So by simply avoiding an autopsy the "vested" parties guaranty future
book sales and avoid giving any kind of gift to those of us that would
like to know how healthy he really was.

Eric Inazaki <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

In article <[email hidden]>,

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,
"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote:

>
> "The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
> occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in a
> statement."
>

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
what _really_ happened.

Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an autopsy
to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins' success
and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are on
the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who are
stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is extremely
small.

And his supporters and advocates may have a financial or emotional
incentive in leaving well enough alone. Look, autopsy or no autopsy,
it makes no difference to me. But anyone who says his diet did or did
not contribute to his death doesn't have the evidence to back it up.
(If anyone does have any real evidence, please come forward and settle
this issue once and for all.)

Doesn't the Atkins Diet itself rely on a "pet theory". I mean, his
diet hasn't been subject to any rigorous testing has it? The theory
that underpins his diet is, at this point, just a theory isn't it?

There are two big caveats I feel I need to point out. I'm assuming
that Dr. Atkins was on the Atkins Diet and that, in fact, no autopsy
was done. If I'm wrong on either point somebody let me know and I
take back everything I said on this matter.

[email hidden] (BasicMan) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Hmmm... if I were one of the many employees, owners or partners -- or
indeed heirs to the Atkins fortune -- I would much prefer that no
autopsy took place. As long as there is any doubt, people will keep
trying the Aktins diet. In other words:

1) If there was an autopsy and it was positive (he was healthy), great
-- more book sales.
2) If there was an autopsy and it was negative (that his heart and
arteries were under stress), damn -- no more book sales.

So by simply avoiding an autopsy the "vested" parties guaranty future
book sales and avoid giving any kind of gift to those of us that would
like to know how healthy he really was.

Yes, there is a conflict of interests here. "Caveat emptor" in a big way.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com

On 31-Aug-2003, [email hidden] (Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there had been an autopsy and it DID find coronary artery
disease, it still would not mean a damn thing UNLESS there was a
previous study
done before he started his low carb diet which indicated no such
disease
being present.

Given his young age and reportedly good exercise tolerance when he
started his diet, it would be reasonable to presume little to no
coronary disease at the outset.

<Raised eyebrows> "Presume"? Come on, you know better than that. It's
quite possible to appear to be young and healthy - even be a world class
athlete - and drop dead of CVD. "Postulate" at best, and even that
would be difficult to support from a scientific standpoint.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The conclusions and insinuations you proclaim in the death of Dr.
Atkins
indicate you are NOT a man with scientific skills but rather a "True
Believer" who is prone to disregard scientific methods and
investigation.

Without an autopsy, it does leave things open to speculation.

If it really bothers you that much, ask Mu if he'd front the cost and
offer to pay for the disinterrment and autopsy. He seems to have the
financial wherewithal to do so from previous statements he's made. He
could make the offer to the Atkins family in such a way that they were
made to view it as a tribute to his methods and memory - an opportunity
for a final vindication. You two seem to be good friends, and he seems
to be of like mind concerning Dr. Atkins so he might be willing to do
so.

Heck, maybe the AMA could make a public offer to pay for the process.
That would be more along the lines of a challenge, but AMA statements
towards Dr. Atkins have been of that ilk all along, so it would be
expected. As a member (especially as a cardiologist) perhaps you could
suggest it to the organization. I'd like to see an autopsy done myself,
but haven't got the money it would take to pay for it, plus I'm just a
face in the crowd with no credentials to pave the way.

Take care,
Carmen

"Carmen " <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

On 31-Aug-2003, [email hidden] (Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there had been an autopsy and it DID find coronary artery
disease, it still would not mean a damn thing UNLESS there was a
previous study
done before he started his low carb diet which indicated no such
disease
being present.

Given his young age and reportedly good exercise tolerance when he
started his diet, it would be reasonable to presume little to no
coronary disease at the outset.

<Raised eyebrows> "Presume"? Come on, you know better than that. It's
quite possible to appear to be young and healthy - even be a world class
athlete - and drop dead of CVD. "Postulate" at best, and even that
would be difficult to support from a scientific standpoint.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The conclusions and insinuations you proclaim in the death of Dr.
Atkins
indicate you are NOT a man with scientific skills but rather a "True
Believer" who is prone to disregard scientific methods and
investigation.

Without an autopsy, it does leave things open to speculation.

If it really bothers you that much, ask Mu if he'd front the cost and
offer to pay for the disinterrment and autopsy. He seems to have the
financial wherewithal to do so from previous statements he's made. He
could make the offer to the Atkins family in such a way that they were
made to view it as a tribute to his methods and memory - an opportunity
for a final vindication. You two seem to be good friends, and he seems
to be of like mind concerning Dr. Atkins so he might be willing to do
so.

Heck, maybe the AMA could make a public offer to pay for the process.
That would be more along the lines of a challenge, but AMA statements
towards Dr. Atkins have been of that ilk all along, so it would be
expected. As a member (especially as a cardiologist) perhaps you could
suggest it to the organization. I'd like to see an autopsy done myself,
but haven't got the money it would take to pay for it, plus I'm just a
face in the crowd with no credentials to pave the way.

Take care,
Carmen

The vey LEAST Chung should do is write articles to nationally distributed
newspapers and magazines and challenge the cause of death with his own pet
theory. He could also request to be on Television shows and spout the same.
My guess he will do neither because in my opinion, he is a coward. He likes
to use buzz words and medical jargon in a newsgroup with common lay people
but he lacks the courage to tell everyone, including medical professionals.
My guess is that he would be even more of a laughing stock than he is at
present. He might even have his alleged "Board Certification" stripped.

On Sun, 31 Aug 2003 12:52:58 GMT, "Carmen " <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

If it really bothers you that much, ask Mu if he'd front the cost and
offer to pay for the disinterrment and autopsy. He seems to have the
financial wherewithal to do so from previous statements he's made. He
could make the offer to the Atkins family in such a way that they were
made to view it as a tribute to his methods and memory - an opportunity
for a final vindication. You two seem to be good friends, and he seems
to be of like mind concerning Dr. Atkins so he might be willing to do
so.

FYI - they never answered, I offered and the offer stands permanently.

Paul E. Lehmann said:

The vey LEAST Chung should do is write articles to nationally distributed
newspapers and magazines and challenge the cause of death with his own pet
theory.

Who defined you as the determiner of what is least and most? Outside
of you, that is?

Imo, the VERY LEAST you could do is to troll another group.

Carmen said:

On 31-Aug-2003, [email hidden] (Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If there had been an autopsy and it DID find coronary artery
disease, it still would not mean a damn thing UNLESS there was a
previous study
done before he started his low carb diet which indicated no such
disease
being present.

Given his young age and reportedly good exercise tolerance when he
started his diet, it would be reasonable to presume little to no
coronary disease at the outset.

<Raised eyebrows> "Presume"? Come on, you know better than that. It's
quite possible to appear to be young and healthy - even be a world class
athlete - and drop dead of CVD.

Dropping dead from CVD and having severe CVD are two distinct clinical
entities.

Quoted message said:

"Postulate" at best, and even that
would be difficult to support from a scientific standpoint.

The majority of folks with significant CVD will have angina or related
cardiac symptoms (dyspnea or syncope). Because Dr. Atkin's did not these
symptoms until about a year before his death, it remains reasonable to
presume that as a young man he had little or no coronary disease when he
started his diet.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The conclusions and insinuations you proclaim in the death of Dr.
Atkins
indicate you are NOT a man with scientific skills but rather a "True
Believer" who is prone to disregard scientific methods and
investigation.

Without an autopsy, it does leave things open to speculation.

If it really bothers you that much,

It doesn't.

Quoted message said:

ask Mu if he'd front the cost and
offer to pay for the disinterrment and autopsy.

If it bothered me that much, I would front the cost.

Quoted message said:

He seems to have the
financial wherewithal to do so from previous statements he's made.

Wouldn't know.

Quoted message said:

He
could make the offer to the Atkins family in such a way that they were
made to view it as a tribute to his methods and memory - an opportunity
for a final vindication.

Do you really believe that the cost of an autopsy is what has been
prohibitive to the Atkin's family?

Quoted message said:

You two seem to be good friends, and he seems
to be of like mind concerning Dr. Atkins so he might be willing to do
so.

Why are you of the opinion that Mu and I are good friends?

Quoted message said:

Heck, maybe the AMA could make a public offer to pay for the process.

That would be weird.

Quoted message said:

That would be more along the lines of a challenge, but AMA statements
towards Dr. Atkins have been of that ilk all along, so it would be
expected.

Why do you believe that the AMA, AHA, and ACC have been so anti-Atkin's?

Quoted message said:

As a member (especially as a cardiologist) perhaps you could
suggest it to the organization. I'd like to see an autopsy done myself,
but haven't got the money it would take to pay for it, plus I'm just a
face in the crowd with no credentials to pave the way.

Take care,
Carmen

If you are on the Atkin's diet, I would think the Atkin's foundation kind of
owes it to you.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/