SO, WHAT DOES CAUSE HEART DISEASE?

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

Slipping on an icy sidewalk is not suspicious.

Dying from simply slipping on an icy sidewalk, however, is suspicious.
Especially with the additional h/o of a cardiac arrest just the year

before and

Quoted message said:

a reported severe cardiomyopathy that was not treated with the best

treatment

Quoted message said:

available (an AICD).

Perhaps you should alert the National Enquirer or other Tabloids, because
you seem to know something that was not included in the stated cause of
death.

Yes, I do know to be skeptical especially when it comes to news-print.

Quoted message said:

http://12.42.224.168/HealthNews/reuters/NewsStory0417200324.htm
"Spokesman Richard Rothstein said Atkins, 72, died at 11:01 a.m. EDT in the
Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York, where he was admitted on April 8
after falling and hitting his head on an icy sidewalk.
Atkins underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went into
a coma and died more than a week later from complications, Rothstein said...

"The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in a
statement."

Curious that Mr. Rothstein did not come right and say that the cause of death
was directly attributable to the fall.

Quoted message said:

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/04/17/obit.atkins/index.html
"Atkins, 72, was rushed to New York Weill Cornell Medical Center by his
colleague, Dr. Keith Berkowitz, where surgeons removed a blood clot to
relieve pressure in his brain on April 9.
Atkins slipped on an icy sidewalk outside his New York office."

Lots of folks slip on ice without dying. Why didn't Dr. Atkins break his fall
with his hands? Why did he not at least protect his head from hitting the
ground. I have a baby girl who is learning to walk. She is falling all the
time. She instinctively brings her hands up to protect her face. Perhaps Dr.
Atkins was unconscious when his head hit the ground.

Quoted message said:

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-04-17-atkins-dies_x.htm
"Atkins fell and hit his head while walking to his office April 8, a day
after a spring storm iced sidewalks. Surgeons removed a blood clot, but he
lapsed into a coma. "

Sounds like something he has done everyday for years doesn't it. They probably
get ice all the time in New York, don't they?

Just makes you go hmmmmm, doesn't it?

Quoted message said:

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

This thread is a perfect example of how those who are pro-wonder drug

attack

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and denigrate publicly funded trials that clearly show the drug is not a
wonder drug. Now we see the ad hominem attack on the defensless dead.

You sound emotionally overwrought here.

Should I use a different font to indicate calm contemplative observation and
disapproval of illogical specious arguments and ad hominems? What about
that indicates a "wrought" scale?

Use of hyperbole and phrases such as "attack and denigrate" and "defenseless
dead."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

What is professional about these opinions?

Opinions are simply that. They are not ad hominems.

And my opinions concerning the suspicious circumstances of Dr. Atkins death are
*my* professional opinions on the matter.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Bob Cardone said:

"Sharon Hope" <[email hidden]> wrote:

snip

Quoted message said:

Perhaps you should alert the National Enquirer or other Tabloids, because
you seem to know something that was not included in the stated cause of
death.

http://12.42.224.168/HealthNews/reuters/NewsStory0417200324.htm
"Spokesman Richard Rothstein said Atkins, 72, died at 11:01 a.m. EDT in the
Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York, where he was admitted on April 8
after falling and hitting his head on an icy sidewalk.
Atkins underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went into
a coma and died more than a week later from complications, Rothstein said...

"The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in a
statement."

http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/04/17/obit.atkins/index.html
"Atkins, 72, was rushed to New York Weill Cornell Medical Center by his
colleague, Dr. Keith Berkowitz, where surgeons removed a blood clot to
relieve pressure in his brain on April 9.
Atkins slipped on an icy sidewalk outside his New York office."

http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2003-04-17-atkins-dies_x.htm
"Atkins fell and hit his head while walking to his office April 8, a day
after a spring storm iced sidewalks. Surgeons removed a blood clot, but he
lapsed into a coma. "

I certainly wouldn't take the word of new services as proof that
something was a fact or not.

You are wise.

Quoted message said:

I have seen events during my life, and
read about them later on a news service, and I felt as though the
reporter must have been watching some other event than the one I had
witnessed.

Ditto.

Quoted message said:

The only definitive cause of his death would be proved by an Autopsy
in my opinion, and apparently there was not one performed, which is
sort of strange, isn't it?

Bob

Certainly is, Bob. Especially when there are valid reasons to believe that there
may have been a cardiac cause for the "slip".

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Carmen said:

Hello,

Bob Cardone said:

The only definitive cause of his death would be proved by an Autopsy
in my opinion, and apparently there was not one performed, which is
sort of strange, isn't it?

The surgeons who removed the clot from his brain got a darn good look at
him.

Not really. Removing the subdural hematoma only required drilling a little
burr hole. Typically neurosurgeons will not look elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

It would have been strange if an autopsy *had* been ordered.

It is my understanding that Dr. Pritikin specified in his will that an
autopsy be performed to check on his coronary arteries at the time of his
death. That autopsy was performed and revealed complete regression of the
known atherosclerosis he had.

Quoted message said:

The
cause of death was apparent, and no foul play was suspected. Not
everyone who dies is autopsied. If the cause of death is unknown, or
suspicious it might be ordered.

Given Dr. Atkins history of recent cardiac arrest, the cause of the "slip"
leading to severe head injuries that resulted in death is less than certain.

Quoted message said:

A family can request one, and pay for
it themselves. An insurance company isn't going to shell out more money
unnecessarily. The percentage of patients' bodies that undergo autopsy
when the law isn't involved had dropped to 6% by 1994 according to the
College of American Pathologists:
http://www.cap.org/media/MediaInfo/newsrel_ahrqautopsy.htm

Carmen

The Atkins family probably would not have requested an autopsy unless a
doctor was compelled to write on the death certificate that there was a
cardiac cause.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Eric Inazaki said:

In article <Z0R1b.237230$Ho3.30583@sccrnsc03>,

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Slipping on an icy sidewalk is not suspicious.

Dying from simply slipping on an icy sidewalk, however, is suspicious.
Especially with the additional h/o of a cardiac arrest just the year before and
a reported severe cardiomyopathy that was not treated with the best treatment
available (an AICD).

Perhaps you should alert the National Enquirer or other Tabloids, because
you seem to know something that was not included in the stated cause of
death.

http://12.42.224.168/HealthNews/reuters/NewsStory0417200324.htm
"Spokesman Richard Rothstein said Atkins, 72, died at 11:01 a.m. EDT in the
Weill Cornell Medical Center in New York, where he was admitted on April 8
after falling and hitting his head on an icy sidewalk.
Atkins underwent surgery to remove a blood clot from his brain but went into
a coma and died more than a week later from complications, Rothstein said...

"The cause of death was related to head trauma from an accident that
occurred while Dr. Atkins was on his way to work," Rothstein said in a
statement."

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
what _really_ happened.

You are correct, Eric.

It is not as if Dr. Atkins has never had a cardiac arrest before.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Martin L. Graham said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
what _really_ happened.

Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an autopsy
to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins' success
and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are on
the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who are
stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is extremely
small.

I would guess that you have may have put your finger on Dr. Chung's
motivation for hinting that there was a coverup concerning Dr. Atkins'
death.

Are you suggesting that had it been proven by autopsy that Dr. Atkin's had severe ischemic
cardiomyopathy and that this was the likely contributor to the fall that led to his death that this
would mean more economic gain for me? If you are, you are going to have to produce that 2PD book
and/or related knick-knacks.

Quoted message said:

I had a similar exchange with him in which he questioned
whether a subdural hematoma could have caused death. I then directed
him to a reference on the Internet from an expert on emergency
medicine.

We did discuss your reference. The conclusion remains that a subdural hematoma (SDH) is at the
most an uncommon way to die though I would still assert based on my emergency medicine experience
at a large county hospital, that dying from an isolated and timely treated SDH is rare.

Quoted message said:

Note that Chung has nothing to back up his claim that Weill-Cornell
falsified Dr. Atkins' cause of death except for sheer speculation.

Because there was not autopsy, there is no proof one way or another. As discussed earlier in
another thread, this does leave things open to speculation.

Quoted message said:

You would think that someone who constantly threatens others with
lawsuits would be a bit more circumspect in leveling serious charges
of medical fraud.

Fyi, I've done more than threaten.

Quoted message said:

You would also think that a responsible physician would think twice
and check his/her facts. carefully.

I have.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

Sharon Hope said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
>
> "Al. Lohse" wrote:
>
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:

<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

P.S. There was a professional squash player around here. I
remember him giving a TV interview when he was about 48
years old and I was thinking that his cholesterol levels
must be close to perfect, a picture of health. Yep, massive
coronary in early fifties... he bought the farm.

Goes to show that exercise is not enough. Would not be surprised to
learn he had a horrible lipid profile *despite* the physical fitness.
Perhaps he would still be alive today had he been on a statin.

Or dead from Rhabdomyolysis.

Dead either way, then. Imo, his chances would have probably been better on the
statin.

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Paul E. Lehmann said:

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...
<snip>

Quoted message said:

But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal

episode,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never

know

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

what _really_ happened.

Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an

autopsy

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins'

success

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who

are

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is

extremely

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

small.

My bet is that you have zero credibility.

Careful, Andy, your credibility is sinking to new lows.
Keep on talking. The credibility hole you are digging is getting deeper and
deeper.
I think you should publish your theory in some prestigious medical journals
AND in the local news media. Why don't you request an appearance on
national TV to discuss your theory of Dr. Atkins Death. In my opinion you
will NEVER be the man or man of science that Dr. Atkins was. I think you
may have a case of extreme jealousy.

Quoted message said:

--
Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD
Board-Certified Cardiologist
http://www.heartmdphd.com/

[email hidden] (mfg) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Martin L. Graham) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (mfg) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
> "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
> >
> > "Al. Lohse" wrote:
> >
> > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > "Al. Lohse" wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

but this does introduce

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> something new into the equation.

What if it's not HDL or LDL at all. Since many who die of heart
disease don't have high cholesterol at all--what part does personality
play?

Does competitiveness kill? Does pushing and not knowing when to quit
kill? I remember reading about a man who was in Ornish's program, he
ate well, exercised very competitively...and died shortly after
finishing it. He was 40ish, lean, tall and exercised regularly. But,
they could not make him slow down. I am not talking about stress, but
competitiveness the way it is expressed in our culture especially for
men: Raid the North, beyond marathons, a million before you're 40 and
more. And for those who don't 'achieve' that there is still daily
competitiveness. It's the ethic.

It's not the hdl at all. MFG

I found it interesting that Ornish "blamed the patient" for this one
failure on his program. The man followed Ornish's "hard"
recommendations to the letter, avoiding all fat and exercising like
mad; he just couldn't adapt to the "soft" requirements, like the group
therapy and meditation.

The man did not follow Ornish's program. He entered it under the
urging of his cardiologist and wife and his own expressed wish to live
and acknowledgment his lifestyle was killing him. For him and others
like him, the 'prescription' of the Ornish program was to slow down.
He could not, because of his personality. His wife talked about how
his urge to compete, in business and sport (running, marathons,
training) would kill him. In the television documentary about Ornish's
program, and this man's struggle, he expressed a wish to live, but an
inability to live any other way but his highly competitive lifestyle.
He was a successful businessman, top of his field, innovative and
driven.

What causes heart disease? What role do personality,
hyper-competitevness, drive to succeed in an artificial world and a
constant flush of adrenaline play in inflammation and atherosclerosis?

According to Ornish's book (pages 96-98 of the Ballantine paperback),
"Sam" followed the [Ornish] diet religiously" as well as the exercise
components. However, he "refused to discuss his feelings" which
Ornish believes are part of "the more fundamental issues that can lead
to heart disease".

Unfortunately, there is no reliable scientific evidence that
"feelings" or "stress" or "competitiveness" is in any way, shape, or
form correlated with heart disease.

Another conclusion one might draw from the example of "Sam" is that
Ornish's program does not work as well as he claims.

MG

Quoted message said:

MFG

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Martin L. Graham said:

"Paul E. Lehmann" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

"Eric Inazaki" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

<snip>

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> But did he simply slip and fall? Could he have had a syncopal episode,
> brought on by some sort of cardiac dysrythmia, which then caused him
> to fall? I gather that no autopsy was done so I guess we'll never know
> what _really_ happened.

Gosh, I bet you will want all people who die in accidents to have an autopsy
to see if they were caused by a heart attack. I think the skeptics and
doubters in the above case are those who can not stand Dr. Atkins' success
and have a "True Belief" in their own pet theories.
Perhaps we should autopsy all those who die from accidents and also are on
the Two Pound Diet. Of course, one would first have to find those who are
stupid enough to go on such a diet. My bet is that the number is extremely
small.

I would guess that you have may have put your finger on Dr. Chung's
motivation for hinting that there was a coverup concerning Dr. Atkins'
death.

Are you suggesting that had it been proven by autopsy that Dr. Atkin's had severe ischemic
cardiomyopathy and that this was the likely contributor to the fall that led to his death that this
would mean more economic gain for me? If you are, you are going to have to produce that 2PD book
and/or related knick-knacks.

Since you have no factual basis for your rank speculations, there must
be some other motivation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I had a similar exchange with him in which he questioned
whether a subdural hematoma could have caused death. I then directed
him to a reference on the Internet from an expert on emergency
medicine.

We did discuss your reference. The conclusion remains that a subdural hematoma (SDH) is at the
most an uncommon way to die though I would still assert based on my emergency medicine experience
at a large county hospital, that dying from an isolated and timely treated SDH is rare.

You began by claiming that I had confused SDH as a cause of death with
something else; you then backed off from "rare" to "uncommon".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Note that Chung has nothing to back up his claim that Weill-Cornell
falsified Dr. Atkins' cause of death except for sheer speculation.

Because there was not autopsy, there is no proof one way or another. As discussed earlier in
another thread, this does leave things open to speculation.

There was a death certificate. That establishes an official cause of
death under the law. Autopsies are done when a crime is suspected or
under other special circumstances, none of which include "a demand by
Dr. Andrew Chung."

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You would think that someone who constantly threatens others with
lawsuits would be a bit more circumspect in leveling serious charges
of medical fraud.

Fyi, I've done more than threaten.

Good for you. Then you should know how irresponsible your statements
about Dr. Atkins are.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You would also think that a responsible physician would think twice
and check his/her facts. carefully.

I have.

Don't think so, as is further established by this latest message.

-MG

In article <[email hidden]>,

(Martin L. Graham) said:

You began by claiming that I had confused SDH as a cause of death with
something else; you then backed off from "rare" to "uncommon".

And, both "rare" and "uncommon" don't mean impossible. Atkins could have
been that 1 in a thousand, ten-thousand, or what ever. Many folks
experience rarities in life - it only takes one.

"Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Carmen said:

Hello,

Bob Cardone said:

The only definitive cause of his death would be proved by an Autopsy
in my opinion, and apparently there was not one performed, which is
sort of strange, isn't it?

The surgeons who removed the clot from his brain got a darn good look at
him.

Not really. Removing the subdural hematoma only required drilling a

little

Quoted message said:

burr hole. Typically neurosurgeons will not look elsewhere.

That comment reminds me of cardiologists who typically will not look into
muscle complaints from patients taking statins. Nor do they look into
complaints cognitive decline, memory loss, repeated episodes of transient
global amnesia, nor aphasia. Nor do they look into complaints of
polyneuropathy, nor peripheral neuropathy.

Pity.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Dr. Andrew B. Chung said:

Given Dr. Atkins history of recent cardiac arrest, the cause of the "slip"
leading to severe head injuries that resulted in death is less than certain.

Let's say that Atkins *did* have cardiac issues that led to his death...
So what? He lived to 72 and who knows how long he may have lived without
his diet or for that matter if he had implemented someone else's.

If his diet is as bad as many think - and was a contributing factor in
his death - it still does nothing to seal the fate of his methods. He
lived to the neighborhood of the average male lifespan while following
his way of eating for 30 years. If it was a timebomb diet, then he
shouldn't have lasted anywhere near as long.

Yes Dr. Chung, an autopsy would have been interesting and a curiosity
just from a medical point of view in relation to his teachings, but IMO,
it has little bearing on the safety of his diet (see above). If the
autopsy results showed advanced build up, what does that tell you? If it
had showed little build up, how would you respond to that as well?

One last thought... one person's situation (Dr. Atkins'😉 does not a
medical certainty make. Whether he suffered from cardio problems or not
doesn't mean squat for the rest of us - maybe he was that
one-in-a-thousand who didn't benefit from his own ideas - maybe he was
that one-in-a-thousand who was immune to the timebomb of a diet he
espoused - maybe he was that one-in-a-thousand who slipped on the ice
and died from his injuries.

So, Dr. Chung...

Speaking of those who go against the status quo (Atkins)... what do you
think of Dr. Linus Pauling's research on Vitamin C and amino acids with
regard to atherosclerosis?

Good morning,
On 25-Aug-2003, "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Carmen said:

Hello,

Bob Cardone said:

The only definitive cause of his death would be proved by an
Autopsy in my opinion, and apparently there was not one performed,
which
is sort of strange, isn't it?

The surgeons who removed the clot from his brain got a darn good
look at him.

Not really. Removing the subdural hematoma only required drilling a
little burr hole. Typically neurosurgeons will not look elsewhere.

So if one of your patients died you wouldn't have a CAT scan done of
their head to ensure that they didn't die of a brain aneurysm instead of
heart failure? Not your area so I guess not....

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It would have been strange if an autopsy *had* been ordered.

It is my understanding that Dr. Pritikin specified in his will that an
autopsy be performed to check on his coronary arteries at the time of
his death. That autopsy was performed and revealed complete
regression of
the known atherosclerosis he had.

Last time I checked Dr. Atkins and Dr. Pritikin were two completely
different people. Do all your patients behave in exactly the same way,
and express exactly the same desires and (just to take this to the
logical endpoint) respond equally well to the same therapies? Even if
an autopsy had been done, and even if they'd found significant
atherosclerotic plaques - heck even if they'd found that he'd had a
cardiac event that precipitated his fall - what would that prove? David
Lettermen is a poster boy for the AHA's "healthy lifestyle" and still
requires regular bypasses to keep him alive. BTW, I'd be shocked if a
few CPKs hadn't been run on that man (Atkins) in an attempt to track the
amount of brain tissue destruction - which means they'd have to
fractionate it and cardiac damage would have shown up in neon.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

The cause of death was apparent, and no foul play was suspected.
Not
everyone who dies is autopsied. If the cause of death is unknown,
or suspicious it might be ordered.

Given Dr. Atkins history of recent cardiac arrest, the cause of the
"slip" leading to severe head injuries that resulted in death is less
than
certain.

Uh huh. <G> What with the ice and all I could see how a reasonable
person might conclude that a 72 year old man's reflexes ought to have
been enough to make death due to the above circumstances somehow worthy
of investigation.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

A family can request one, and pay for
it themselves. An insurance company isn't going to shell out more
money unnecessarily. The percentage of patients' bodies that
undergo
autopsy when the law isn't involved had dropped to 6% by 1994
according to
the College of American Pathologists:
http://www.cap.org/media/MediaInfo/newsrel_ahrqautopsy.htm

Carmen

The Atkins family probably would not have requested an autopsy unless
a doctor was compelled to write on the death certificate that there
was
a cardiac cause.

So, do you think the family paid off the doctor who signed the death
certificate, or do you think a secret cabal is involved? The beef
industry perhaps? That "Got Milk?" campaign looks mighty suspicious to
me. The dairy and beef industries could be in cahoots with the
pharmaceutical industry, and maybe Atkins was their "front man". Yes,
it all begins to come together now.....

Take care,
Carmen

Paul E. Lehmann said:

I think you should publish your theory in some prestigious medical journals
AND in the local news media.

What, Usenet, an international forum is not good enough for you, Paul?

Quoted message said:

Why don't you request an appearance on
national TV to discuss your theory of Dr. Atkins Death.

I would love to.

Quoted message said:

In my opinion you
will NEVER be the man or man of science that Dr. Atkins was.

Thank you, Jesus, for not aligning me and Chung with a despicable
charlatan like Atkins.

Quoted message said:

I think you
may have a case of extreme jealousy.

I do.

I am jealous of Michael Douglas.

http://www.zeta-jones-fan.com/czj.html

On 25 Aug 2003 18:44:42 -0700, [email hidden] (Martin L.

Graham) said:

Unfortunately, there is no reliable scientific evidence that
"feelings" or "stress" or "competitiveness" is in any way, shape, or
form correlated with heart disease.

Depends on what you call "reliable".

Quoted message said:

Another conclusion one might draw from the example of "Sam" is that
Ornish's program does not work as well as he claims.

I believe Ornish' program for the reversal of some CAD/CVD is right on
line.

As a general, all purpose diet, it sucks. Failure rates are
astronomically high.

As Ornish once said (before he decided to extrapolate his diet into
the public mess it has become), "It is for people who have no other
choice".

Btw, I do like the emphasis on reduced food consumption.

Hello again,
In light of the recent discussions concerning the late Dr. Atkins'
death, I went looking for some stats. Below are some relevant excerpts
and the links they came from:
http://www.nsc.org/library/rept2000.htm
Deaths and Injuries in the Community
The 19,000 fatalities in 2001 include deaths in public places or places
used in a public way and not involving motor vehicles. Most sports,
recreation, and transportation deaths are included. This number excludes
work-related deaths.
Therre is a public fatal injury every 28 minutes and a disabling injury
every 5 seconds.
The number of public unintentional-injury deaths decreased by 900, or
5%, between 2000 and 2001.
The five leading fatal causes are falls, poisoning, drowning,
suffocation by ingestion, and air, water and railroad transportation.
People 65 and over suffer almost half of the fatalities due to public
injuries.
Recreational boating resulted in 701 deaths in 2000. Alcohol was
reported to be involved in 215 (31%) of recreational boating deaths.
445 boating fatalities in 2000 could have been avoided if the victim had
been wearing a life jacket.
********************************************************
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_dls/m3225/7_61/61432995/p1/article.jhtml
Epidemiology of Falls in the Elderly
From 1992 through 1995, 147 million injury-related visits were made to
emergency departments in the United States.(1) Falls were the leading
cause of external injury, accounting for 24 percent of these visits.1
Emergency department visits related to falls are more common in children
less than five years of age and adults 65 years of age and older.
Compared with children, elderly persons who fall are 10 times more
likely to be hospitalized and eight times more likely to die as the
result of a fall.(2)
Trauma is the fifth leading cause of death in persons more than 65 years
of age,(3) and falls are responsible for 70 percent of accidental deaths
in persons 75 years of age and older. The elderly, who represent 12
percent of the population, account for 75 percent of deaths from
falls.(4) The number of falls increases progressively with age in both
sexes and all racial and ethnic groups.(5) The injury rate for falls is
highest among persons 85 years of age and older (e.g., 171 deaths per
100,000 white men in this age group).(6)
*****************************************************************
http://www.rehabpub.com/ltrehab/112001/3.asp
Statistics Are Grim
The statistics are sobering. Approximately 35% of people over the age of
65 years experience one or more falls each year.1 Nearly 70% of all
emergency department visits by people over the age of 75 are related to
falls.2 Although the home is often considered the safest place, this is
not true. More than 60% of falls occur in the home.3 As the population
in the United States continues to age, preventing falls is paramount to
keeping health costs down and preventing further disability of the
elderly.
*****************************************************************
Finally, David Brinkley also died of "...complications from a fall, ABC
News said...". Or *did* he?
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2003/06/12/national/main558326.shtml
Dr. Chung, what's your take on his death?
Take care,
Carmen

On Tue, 26 Aug 2003 11:43:00 GMT, "Carmen " <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Last time I checked Dr. Atkins and Dr. Pritikin were two completely
different people. Even if an autopsy had been done, and even if they'd found significant
atherosclerotic plaques - heck even if they'd found that he'd had a
cardiac event that precipitated his fall - what would that prove?

The same as good research....nothing. However, we perform good, solid
research all the time. Do we now stop researching because nothing is
proved.

The value is in the information and what is done with it. Having no
autopsy from Atkins is not only an enormous information void it
compromises the entire validity of his diet, imo.

Atkins resisted research his whole life and his patient pool held
extremely valuable information.

Like Atkins fails miserably over the long haul.

Quoted message said:

David
Lettermen is a poster boy for the AHA's "healthy lifestyle" and still
requires regular bypasses to keep him alive.

Lettermen was screwed physically well before he took on his role.

Carmen said:

Hello again,
In light of the recent discussions concerning the late Dr. Atkins'
death, I went looking for some stats. Below are some relevant excerpts
and the links they came from:
http://www.nsc.org/library/rept2000.htm
<<<<<<<<<< sipped >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

This is an interesting sideline having very
little to do with cardiology.

One of the professors around here told me
that a multimillion dollar study was
conducted on veterans in Texas regarding
their balance and stability. (This professor
is brother-in-law to one of the researchers.)
After trying various things, they discovered
the best method was the practice of Tai Chi.
This is a no impact exercise which helps
coordinate mind and body.

Ancient chinese secret?

A.L.

[email hidden] (Martin L. Graham) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (mfg) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Martin L. Graham) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (mfg) wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
> "Al. Lohse" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...
> > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
> > >
> > > "Al. Lohse" wrote:
> > >
> > > > "Dr. Andrew B. Chung, MD/PhD" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > "Al. Lohse" wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<snipped>>>>>>>>>>>

but this does introduce

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > something new into the equation.
>
> What if it's not HDL or LDL at all. Since many who die of heart
> disease don't have high cholesterol at all--what part does personality
> play?
>
> Does competitiveness kill? Does pushing and not knowing when to quit
> kill? I remember reading about a man who was in Ornish's program, he
> ate well, exercised very competitively...and died shortly after
> finishing it. He was 40ish, lean, tall and exercised regularly. But,
> they could not make him slow down. I am not talking about stress, but
> competitiveness the way it is expressed in our culture especially for
> men: Raid the North, beyond marathons, a million before you're 40 and
> more. And for those who don't 'achieve' that there is still daily
> competitiveness. It's the ethic.
>
> It's not the hdl at all. MFG

I found it interesting that Ornish "blamed the patient" for this one
failure on his program. The man followed Ornish's "hard"
recommendations to the letter, avoiding all fat and exercising like
mad; he just couldn't adapt to the "soft" requirements, like the group
therapy and meditation.

The man did not follow Ornish's program. He entered it under the
urging of his cardiologist and wife and his own expressed wish to live
and acknowledgment his lifestyle was killing him. For him and others
like him, the 'prescription' of the Ornish program was to slow down.
He could not, because of his personality. His wife talked about how
his urge to compete, in business and sport (running, marathons,
training) would kill him. In the television documentary about Ornish's
program, and this man's struggle, he expressed a wish to live, but an
inability to live any other way but his highly competitive lifestyle.
He was a successful businessman, top of his field, innovative and
driven.

What causes heart disease? What role do personality,
hyper-competitevness, drive to succeed in an artificial world and a
constant flush of adrenaline play in inflammation and atherosclerosis?

According to Ornish's book (pages 96-98 of the Ballantine paperback),
"Sam" followed the [Ornish] diet religiously" as well as the exercise
components. However, he "refused to discuss his feelings" which
Ornish believes are part of "the more fundamental issues that can lead
to heart disease".

Unfortunately, there is no reliable scientific evidence that
"feelings" or "stress" or "competitiveness" is in any way, shape, or
form correlated with heart disease.

M. Graham said: Another conclusion one might draw from the example of
"Sam" is that Ornish's program does not work as well as he claims.

Did the man have some pre-existing heart disease? I'm not really
familiar with Ornish's program but also wonder if people entering the
program had a so-called type A personality.

MFG