Improving speed?

Subba Rao said:

I completed in about 5:40 minutes

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Subba Rao said:

with muscle craps

I'd like to see that.

Subba Rao said:

In the past I have tried ankle weights.

What a [censored]...

Quoted message said:

Subba Rao said:

In the past I have tried ankle weights.

What a [censored]...

Naw, I'd say he's more of a dumbass.

Subba Rao wrote:
<snip>

Quoted message said:

In the past I have tried ankle weights. Most of my friends were
against using ankle weights. I paid dearly late last summer with
muscle craps and knee injury for 2 weeks. Some of the literature I
came across on the Internet suggests that I use 2% of the body weight
to start with for ankle weights. Gradually that weight can be
increased to 7%-10% of the body weight. Is this true?

For the love of God, why on earth would you want to use ankle weights
again?? Can you point to a single non-commercial website that encourages
their use?

Your friends advised against them, you've tried them and got injured. How
many times do you want to try them before you give up on them?

Tim

Tim Downie said:

For the love of God, why on earth would you want to use ankle weights
again??

Of course I now realize, you're an ignorat dipshit. Sorry, my mistake.

Tim Downie

Subba Rao said:

Hello,

I ran my first marathon last fall. I completed in about 5:40 minutes
which is something that I am not too proud of. I wanted to complete it
under 5 hours. This year I want to complete under 5 hours. How do I
improve my speed? I do the run/walk method. Considering the time it
took me to finish the marathon, I would be considered a jogger (more or
less). I do want to finish under 5 hours or sooner (4 hours). How
should I prepare for increasing my speed?

In the past I have tried ankle weights. Most of my friends were against
using ankle weights. I paid dearly late last summer with muscle craps
and knee injury for 2 weeks. Some of the literature I came across on
the Internet suggests that I use 2% of the body weight to start with for
ankle weights. Gradually that weight can be increased to 7%-10% of the
body weight. Is this true?

Currently, I am exercising and swimming as cross training. But I am
begining to realize that I need to keep my mileage up as well.

Any advice you can give is appreciated.

Thank you in advance.

Regards,

Subbarao

It's too bad about the morons that get their pleasure with their bizarre
posting.

A lot of sprinting... Don't know about leg weights, maybe in moderation.

Hill running.

Beach Runner said:

A lot of sprinting...

Some speedwork maybe, but a lot of sprinting for a 5:40 marathoner? I
reckon a lot more mileage needed first! I think the OPs problem is that
he's trying everything *except* the thing he really needs to do.

Quoted message said:

Don't know about leg weights, maybe in
moderation.

Again, show me a good non-commercial site that recommends training with
weights for marathon.

Quoted message said:

Hill running.

But not before building base mileage.

Tim

Tim Downie said:

Beach Runner said:

A lot of sprinting...

Some speedwork maybe, but a lot of sprinting for a 5:40 marathoner? I
reckon a lot more mileage needed first! I think the OPs problem is that
he's trying everything *except* the thing he really needs to do.

Quoted message said:

Don't know about leg weights, maybe in
moderation.

Again, show me a good non-commercial site that recommends training with
weights for marathon.

Quoted message said:

Hill running.

But not before building base mileage.

Tim

This site may be commercial but talks about a study peformed at Texas
Tech University.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0001.htm

Sorry, I had a few typos in my original posting.

Regards,

Subbarao

Subba Rao said:

Tim Downie said:

Beach Runner said:

A lot of sprinting...

Some speedwork maybe, but a lot of sprinting for a 5:40 marathoner? I
reckon a lot more mileage needed first! I think the OPs problem is
that he's trying everything *except* the thing he really needs to do.

Quoted message said:

Don't know about leg weights, maybe in
moderation.

Again, show me a good non-commercial site that recommends training
with weights for marathon.

Quoted message said:

Hill running.

But not before building base mileage.

Tim

This site may be commercial but talks about a study peformed at Texas
Tech University.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0001.htm

Sorry, I had a few typos in my original posting.

Regards,

Subbarao

I'm a real believer in resistance training. I ran faster after serious
weight training, even though I was carrying around about 20 more pounds
of muscle. Faster than anytime in my life, and I was around 50. Sadly,
a car wreck knocked me out for a few years, but I'll be back.

Of course he needs serious distance, hopefully on soft ground. The
distance needs to include short speed work to increase speed. A slow
quarter, than go all out for 100 feet type of thing. To raise his pulse
and demands on his circulatory system.

He should not run every day, the body needs time to rebuild. But doing
alternative training on off days is great. I'd also recommend organic
food not fool of pesticides and hormones. Let your body clean out. If
you have a juicer, lots of leafy green juices.

The hill running challenges the cardio system. Show me a marathon
that's completely flat?

It seemed obvious that distance is required.

Subba Rao said:

I ran my first marathon last fall. I completed in about 5:40 minutes
which is something that I am not too proud of. I wanted to complete it
under 5 hours. This year I want to complete under 5 hours. How do I
improve my speed?

First off, forget the ankle weights. There are a lot of factors that go
into improving your marathon speed. As a relative beginner at the
distance, you'll want to focus in on a few of these...

1) High lactate threshold
2) High glycogen store and fat utilization
3) Improved running economy
3) High maximal oxygen uptake
4) Quick Recovery

You work these things in a steady, progressive manner, emphasizing
certain aspects depending on where you are in your marathon training.
Most plans start out with an endurance phase, where you steadily build
your weekly mileage and weekly long running most of your runs at an easy
pace. Then you'll maintain that and introduce LT and marathon paced runs.
Then introduce some tune-up races of 8k to 15k distance every other week
or so (this will give you some VO2 max training). Then you taper for your
goal race with 3 or 4 weeks to go, cutting back on the mileage while
maintaining the speed.

IMO, the most important thing that will get you faster over the marathon
distance is consistant training that involves a relatively high weekly
mileage and long runs in the 20-25 mile range every other week. If you
find that the plan is too tough to maintain, then drop some of the speed
workouts, but don't drop the long runs.

I suggest getting a good marathon training book and find a plan that
suits your goals.

--
Phil M.

Beach Runner said:

Show me a marathon that's completely flat?

Chicago. I did it 3 times. In fact, the difficulty of that race is that it
is completely flat. You beat up your legs from the constant repetitive
pounding. No hills to change the motion and angle of impact on your body.

--
Phil M.

Subba Rao wrote:

It's beneficial for those trying to help if you could provide some idea
of your background - age, years running, training plan (if any) or at
least volume and frequency.

Phil gave you some sound advice. Some suggested hills (favorite of many,
but there's 100 flavors), but you should have a base first, and we don't
know if you do or not. Here's some other starting points if you're new
to formal plans.

Build large base of running - run aerobically - lots. There's an
assortment of training schedules on line, including some run/walk. Some
require you to have a base first to implement them relatively safely.

http://www.runnersworld.com/channel/1,10314,s1-51-0-0-0,00.html
http://www.runnersworld.com/category/1,5034,s1-51-55-0-0,00.html

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/index.shtml
http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/2/2_4/index.shtml

Note: I haven't used any of these directly (ie you're on your own), but
have used tidbits from these and numerous other sites in my own
training. (but I'm slow)

Here's a couple more ideas from the pponline site:
periodization
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0147.htm
effects of different workouts
http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0966.htm

Quoted message said:

This site may be commercial but talks about a study peformed at Texas
Tech University.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0001.htm

Read that site very carefully - as well as all training studies. Pay
attention to who the subjects were and whether you are in that
population or have reason to believe the protcols / results would apply
to you.

The subjects were college track and field athletes. Are you that
trained? This can make a huge difference as to whether you get positive
results or get injured.

Did you follow the protocols it said - esp. the do's and don'ts?

Have you been doing weight or other strength training? Have you done
unweighted plyometrics? It's too bad they didn't have a plyometric-only
group for comparison.

Did you only run in place / recover for 30-sec, 5 times with high knee
lifts - like they describe? Or did you actually try running with them,
like they caution against at the bottom of the page.

The 2-10% of body weight was in vest weights, not ankle weights.

If you're going to put weights on your feet, I'd suggest snowshoes and
snowshoe run, esp. in soft snow, if you have the opportunity. They're a
little more than 1+ lb per foot and a lot of fun. 🙂 Even
unstrength-trained beginners like me can do this. When you consider each
foot is lifted about 80-90 times / minute and the impact, that's a lot
of extra effort if you use 2.5 lb weights on a firm surface, like they
do - and why they only do 150 sec worth (5x30sec).

I don't run with vest weights, but I do run with a camelbak full of
fluid, food, and gear, which probably weighs 10+ lb (maybe 7+%). My
races don't have aid stations, and I like to wander on my long runs, so
it's specific training for me.

BUT, I have never done plyometrics with the pack on - and don't intend
to. I do add weights to things like lunges, where there's no impact -
and may do them quickly to emphasize power more so than strength. (I
vary what I do when.)

I do find some strength work and plyometrics help with injury prevention
(but also probably contributed to injuries early on before I learned to
listen to body).

Hope this helps.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Phil said:

the most important thing that will get you faster over the marathon
distance is consistant training that involves a relatively high weekly
mileage and long runs in the 20-25 mile range every other week.

SR, you've gotten some good advice on improving from your 5:30 maiden
marathon voyage from Phil and a few others. I'll repackage this in
hierarchical form:

1a - plenty of milage, most of it slow & easy, on 5-7 days of running each
week
1b - consistent long runs

2 - drop the ankle weights, they're ridiculous and stupid and dangerous, not
even "maybe" or "questionable"

..
..
..

6 - everything else

I'm leaving out 3 through 5 to emphasize the relative priorities here.
"Everything else" will include things like some faster running, eating well,
sleeping enough, avoiding injuries, getting your mind right, and more. But
don't worry too much about any of that until you're well under way with 1 &
2.

Phil M. said:

Subba Rao said:

I ran my first marathon last fall. I completed in about 5:40 minutes
which is something that I am not too proud of. I wanted to complete it
under 5 hours. This year I want to complete under 5 hours. How do I
improve my speed?

First off, forget the ankle weights. There are a lot of factors that go
into improving your marathon speed. As a relative beginner at the
distance, you'll want to focus in on a few of these...

1) High lactate threshold
2) High glycogen store and fat utilization
3) Improved running economy
3) High maximal oxygen uptake
4) Quick Recovery

You work these things in a steady, progressive manner, emphasizing
certain aspects depending on where you are in your marathon training.
Most plans start out with an endurance phase, where you steadily build
your weekly mileage and weekly long running most of your runs at an easy
pace. Then you'll maintain that and introduce LT and marathon paced runs.
Then introduce some tune-up races of 8k to 15k distance every other week
or so (this will give you some VO2 max training). Then you taper for your
goal race with 3 or 4 weeks to go, cutting back on the mileage while
maintaining the speed.

IMO, the most important thing that will get you faster over the marathon
distance is consistant training that involves a relatively high weekly
mileage and long runs in the 20-25 mile range every other week. If you
find that the plan is too tough to maintain, then drop some of the speed
workouts, but don't drop the long runs.

I suggest getting a good marathon training book and find a plan that
suits your goals.

Thank you for the advice. I am 45 years old. Last fall, I ran my first
marathon (Marine Corp) in Washington DC. For that marathon, I have only
trained the endurance portion of it. At that time I did not have time
nor the resources to do strength training. This year I have started a
lot of workout at the gym (weight equipment, spinning and swimming).
Last year I did not do any such exercises. I did use a knee support for
the marathon. My leg muscles were hurting from the lactic acid build
up. This year it is a totally different story. Since I am working out
a lot at the gym, on the weekends my long distance runs are not that
bothersome. My leg muscle don't hurt as much from lactic acid build up.

I will ignore the ankle weights. Thank you for the advice.

Regards,

Subbarao

PS - Please excuse any typos.

Charlie Pendejo said:

2 - drop the ankle weights, they're ridiculous and stupid and
dangerous, not even "maybe" or "questionable"

Several times a week I see a guy running with dumbbells. He's been doing it
for a few years now. He can't possibly be trying to improve his running. He
runs with his arms dangling from his shoulders, elbows almost straight. One
of these days I'm going to stop my car and ask him what he thinks he's
doing.

--
Phil M.

Phil M. said:

Several times a week I see a guy running with dumbbells. He's been doing it
for a few years now. He can't possibly be trying to improve his running. He
runs with his arms dangling from his shoulders, elbows almost straight. One
of these days I'm going to stop my car and ask him what he thinks he's
doing.

And I'll punch you in the mouth.

Ed

"One of these days I'm going to stop my car and ask him what
he thinks he's doing. "
I can tell you what he'll say: "I'm burning calories" or "I think
they'll build my arms" or "I'm getting more fit". Obviously, the
answer is meaningless. He won't really KNOW why he's
doing it. It's just something to do. And that type of runner
doesn't have any understanding what risk-of-injury means.

As for the OP, all this advice and no-one asks how many
miles per week he's doing presently. I bet 10 to 15.
I'd suggest forgetting about anything else until base mileage
per week is 25 miles or so.
....thehick

thehick said:

As for the OP, all this advice and no-one asks how many
miles per week he's doing presently. I bet 10 to 15.
I'd suggest forgetting about anything else until base mileage
per week is 25 miles or so.

Good point. And Dot alluded to it by saying...

Quoted message said:

It's beneficial for those trying to help if you could provide some idea
of your background - age, years running, training plan (if any) or at
least volume and frequency.

--
Phil M.