Improving speed?

Beach Runner said:

It seemed obvious that distance is required.

When you hear that a 5:40 marathoner is training with ankle weights, I don't
think you can take anything for granted about their training.

Tim

"Subba Rao" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:CnlTf.62439$Ug4.1046@dukeread12...

Quoted message said:

This site may be commercial but talks about a study peformed at Texas
Tech University.

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0001.htm

======================
Do's and don'ts
It's important to bear the following points in mind, however:
1. Remember that you should not rush pell-mell into plyometric training
with added weight. Before undertaking plyometric-plus-weight work, you
should carry out several months of regular plyometric training, starting
cautiously and using only your body weight for resistance. Don't forget
that the forces on your musculoskeletal system during plyometric
training are often far greater than the forces felt during regular
running workouts. It doesn't make sense to magnify these forces even
further with extra weight until your body is really ready to handle the
extra load

2. If you decide to utilise a weight training vest, make sure you wear
it as much as possible during your daily activities, not just during
some of your workouts

3. Don't start your vest workouts with 10 per cent of body weight in the
vest. Begin with just 2 per cent and gradually work up to the 10-per
cent figure as your musculoskeletal system becomes stronger

4. Some of the vests on the market are uncomfortable and/or too
loose-fitting. The best vest I have been able to locate is made by
Training Zone Concepts (phone 810-732-0849 or fax 810-732-4859) in the
United States

5. Don't try to carry out your regular running workouts while wearing
ankle weights. If you do, you may increase your risk of injury. However,
it IS okay to run up hills while wearing a weight vest. Bear in mind,
though, that you should first train extensively on hills without the
vest, then utilise just 2 per cent of body weight in the vest, and
gradually work your way up to 10 per cent.

==================================

The people involved in this study were skilled, experienced(likely
years) track runners. Please note all the disclaimers above. As Tim
suggested and I'll concur but in my own directness, you need more base
work at this point if your running a 5:40. Simply adding and building a
solid base should be you primary goal. This alone will also bring your
speed up. Strong legs will let you hold pace longer. I'll go as far as
to suggest some fartleks and only with your body weight.

More directly, stay the hell away from weights!!! Be it simple use or
too much use for your abilities, you body is telling you, please stop!
After about 3-5 years of running and you want to get your marathon
times from 3:01 to 2:55, maybe then. You're trying to fly an SST after
a few basic lessons - get back to the basics!

-DougF

Subba Rao said:

Phil M. said:

Subba Rao said:

I ran my first marathon last fall. I completed in about 5:40 minutes
which is something that I am not too proud of. I wanted to complete
it under 5 hours. This year I want to complete under 5 hours. How
do I improve my speed?

First off, forget the ankle weights. There are a lot of factors that
go into improving your marathon speed. As a relative beginner at the
distance, you'll want to focus in on a few of these...

1) High lactate threshold
2) High glycogen store and fat utilization
3) Improved running economy
3) High maximal oxygen uptake
4) Quick Recovery

You work these things in a steady, progressive manner, emphasizing
certain aspects depending on where you are in your marathon training.
Most plans start out with an endurance phase, where you steadily build
your weekly mileage and weekly long running most of your runs at an
easy pace. Then you'll maintain that and introduce LT and marathon
paced runs. Then introduce some tune-up races of 8k to 15k distance
every other week or so (this will give you some VO2 max training).
Then you taper for your goal race with 3 or 4 weeks to go, cutting
back on the mileage while maintaining the speed.

IMO, the most important thing that will get you faster over the
marathon distance is consistant training that involves a relatively
high weekly mileage and long runs in the 20-25 mile range every other
week. If you find that the plan is too tough to maintain, then drop
some of the speed workouts, but don't drop the long runs.

I suggest getting a good marathon training book and find a plan that
suits your goals.

Thank you for the advice. I am 45 years old. Last fall, I ran my first
marathon (Marine Corp) in Washington DC. For that marathon, I have only
trained the endurance portion of it. At that time I did not have time
nor the resources to do strength training. This year I have started a
lot of workout at the gym (weight equipment, spinning and swimming).
Last year I did not do any such exercises. I did use a knee support for
the marathon. My leg muscles were hurting from the lactic acid build
up. This year it is a totally different story. Since I am working out
a lot at the gym, on the weekends my long distance runs are not that
bothersome. My leg muscle don't hurt as much from lactic acid build up.

I will ignore the ankle weights. Thank you for the advice.

Regards,

Subbarao

PS - Please excuse any typos.

Weights at the gym is great. Anything that increases your weight while
running puts a greater strain on your feet, ankles, knees and back, and
can increase your injury.

In article <zVfTf.62416$Ug4.55144@dukeread12>,

Subba Rao said:

Hello,

I ran my first marathon last fall. I completed in about 5:40 minutes
which is something that I am not too proud of. I wanted to complete it
under 5 hours. This year I want to complete under 5 hours. How do I
improve my speed? I do the run/walk method. Considering the time it
took me to finish the marathon, I would be considered a jogger (more or
less). I do want to finish under 5 hours or sooner (4 hours). How
should I prepare for increasing my speed?

It would help to know more (a lot more!) about your running and
training before saying much about how to run faster.

First off, what are your race times at other distances? If you
run something like 34 minutes for a 5k, which is in accord with a
5:40 marathon, then the answers will be different than if you run
a 20 minute 5k. In the former case, you need to rebuild your running
and speed from very short distances and up. In the latter, you've
got plenty of speed and 'merely' need to work on endurance.

Second, what training did you do in the 6 months prior to last
fall's marathon?

Quoted message said:

In the past I have tried ankle weights. Most of my friends were against
using ankle weights. I paid dearly late last summer with muscle craps
and knee injury for 2 weeks. Some of the literature I came across on
the Internet suggests that I use 2% of the body weight to start with for
ankle weights. Gradually that weight can be increased to 7%-10% of the
body weight. Is this true?

If you're training for a race in which competitors will be required
to wear ankle weights, then maybe. Otherwise, they're a route to injury --
not faster times. You've already done the experiment.

Quoted message said:

Currently, I am exercising and swimming as cross training. But I am
begining to realize that I need to keep my mileage up as well.

Swimming is fine for your aerobic base. It doesn't give you the
marathon-specific training you'll need, but can be a good way of
fleshing our your aerobic base without incurring the impact forces
of running.

If you're looking to race for 5-ish hours, a typical running week needs
at least that much aerobic time. Better if you're more like 7-10 hours.
(At 5 mph, this is 35-50 miles per week, fairly ordinary marathon training.)
The more you are below this (hence the question about your training) the
slower you're going to go. A friend went from 5:20-ish to 3:55 almost
solely on the strength of running more miles, more often. Very little
speed work. Speed wasn't her problem, holding speed was the problem.

--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Robert Grumbine said:

In article <zVfTf.62416$Ug4.55144@dukeread12>,

<SNIP>

Swimming is fine for your aerobic base. It doesn't give you the
marathon-specific training you'll need, but can be a good way of
fleshing our your aerobic base without incurring the impact forces
of running.

If you're looking to race for 5-ish hours, a typical running week needs
at least that much aerobic time. Better if you're more like 7-10 hours.
(At 5 mph, this is 35-50 miles per week, fairly ordinary marathon training.)
The more you are below this (hence the question about your training) the
slower you're going to go. A friend went from 5:20-ish to 3:55 almost
solely on the strength of running more miles, more often. Very little
speed work. Speed wasn't her problem, holding speed was the problem.

Thank for this advice. I really want to drastically improve my speed!
Just like your friend did. I know I can add the miles easily. I am
totally discarding the idea of using ankle weights. The only problem I
have is the lactic acid build up. Lactic acid hurts my legs since I can
add the miles easily to my training program. How do I handle lactic
acid issue when I am adding up my long distance miles?

Thank you once again.

Regards,

Subbarao

In article <Wo2Uf.75$EZ6.28@dukeread12>,

Subba Rao said:

Robert Grumbine said:

In article <zVfTf.62416$Ug4.55144@dukeread12>,

<SNIP>

Swimming is fine for your aerobic base. It doesn't give you the
marathon-specific training you'll need, but can be a good way of
fleshing our your aerobic base without incurring the impact forces
of running.

If you're looking to race for 5-ish hours, a typical running week needs
at least that much aerobic time. Better if you're more like 7-10 hours.
(At 5 mph, this is 35-50 miles per week, fairly ordinary marathon training.)
The more you are below this (hence the question about your training) the
slower you're going to go. A friend went from 5:20-ish to 3:55 almost
solely on the strength of running more miles, more often. Very little
speed work. Speed wasn't her problem, holding speed was the problem.

Thank for this advice. I really want to drastically improve my speed!
Just like your friend did. I know I can add the miles easily. I am
totally discarding the idea of using ankle weights. The only problem I
have is the lactic acid build up. Lactic acid hurts my legs since I can
add the miles easily to my training program. How do I handle lactic
acid issue when I am adding up my long distance miles?

If it's lactic acid, then your problem is that you're sprinting or
racing middle distance. For marathon-oriented training you don't run
fast enough to accumulate much lactic acid, and that is very temporarily
only (during a hard uphill -- that you don't slow down enough for).
Maybe on a not even once a week basis you would do speed work that is
faster than tempo pace (using the definition of 60 minute race pace --
faster than this about pace and you can experience some buildup).

If you're hitting significant lactic loads regularly, you're just running
too fast in your training. No surprise, really. You (most of us go
through this) figure that the way to race faster is to train faster, so
run too fast, too often in your training. Come race day, you discover
that it didn't work as a training method.

Putting in the miles, regularly, and _slowly_ enough, is the route
to the faster marathon (assuming you have the faster 5k I asked about).

It's counterintuitive, especially when so much training program
planning is based on 'training VO2max', 'improving lactic tolerance',
etc. The thing is, your body doesn't know any of those things. It
knows physiological demands, and it meets those demands. _Regardless_
of pace, your body uses all biochemical pathways to generate energy.
Send a 4 hour marathoner out at 11 minutes per mile (2 minutes/mile slower
than marathon pace), and you're training all of his sprint metabolism,
VO2 max, lactic, efficiency at LT, ... Being out for 5-10 hours a week
doing this does produce results -- even though you never went any
faster than the 11 minute/mile pace.

Ingrid Kristiansen was mentioned in another post. She's a type case
for this. Her world record for the marathon stood for more than a
decade. Yet she did very little running faster than marathon pace.
More locally is former regular Dana Laird, who did her training at
2 minutes per mile slower than marathon pace, and little fast work.
And who regularly qualified for the Boston Marathon.

My friend who dropped the about 1.5 hours did do some faster than
tempo pace training. But ... not that much, not even once a week.
The main things were to put in the miles and to figure out hydration/
electrolyte management for during the race. She seldom ran fast
enough to accumulate any lactic acid.
--
Robert Grumbine http://www.radix.net/~bobg/ Science faqs and amateur activities notes and links.
Sagredo (Galileo Galilei) "You present these recondite matters with too much
evidence and ease; this great facility makes them less appreciated than they
would be had they been presented in a more abstruse manner." Two New Sciences

Subba Rao said:

The only problem I
have is the lactic acid build up. Lactic acid hurts my legs since I can
add the miles easily to my training program. How do I handle lactic
acid issue when I am adding up my long distance miles?

As Bob mentioned, slow down. Run at a conversational pace so you are
brathing easily. Talk with yourself if you run alone. You shouldn't have
lactic acid build up at that effort level.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

You need mental intensity to run fast. If you are basically a lazy and
self-satisfied person, i dont think there is hope.
most people run too fast. A race is war, and you should forget the pain
and kill your opponents. That is my attitude. Im injured alot , though.

"Robert Grumbine" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

If you're hitting significant lactic loads regularly, you're just
running
too fast in your training. No surprise, really. You (most of us go
through this) figure that the way to race faster is to train faster,
so
run too fast, too often in your training. Come race day, you discover
that it didn't work as a training method.

Bingo with accent on the 'if'. What makes you think it is lactic acid
and not just tired legs from trying to run too far, too fast, too soon?
As Dot said, I think it was her, give us some details on how you train
and your physical activity background before you started running. Ankle
weights, well, we all agree, not a good idea. The fact that you're in a
hurry to go fast suggests a type A behavior that will work against you.
You have the rest of your life to run, what's the haste?

-DF

Phil said:

Several times a week I see a guy running with dumbbells. [...] He
runs with his arms dangling from his shoulders, elbows almost straight.

This morning I saw a guy doing the same thing at my local park. Dude
appeared to be a boxer - I'm guessing a light heavyweight, maybe super
middleweight (and yeah, I needed to google a cheat sheet for that). I've
seen a handful of boxer-looking guys at this park, but this is the first
time I've noticed one running straight-armed with dumbbells like that.

Charlie Pendejo said:

Phil said:

Several times a week I see a guy running with dumbbells. [...] He
runs with his arms dangling from his shoulders, elbows almost straight.

This morning I saw a guy doing the same thing at my local park. Dude
appeared to be a boxer - I'm guessing a light heavyweight, maybe super
middleweight (and yeah, I needed to google a cheat sheet for that). I've
seen a handful of boxer-looking guys at this park, but this is the first
time I've noticed one running straight-armed with dumbbells like that.

We do that in xt class (all runners) - but just a couple laps (floor
exercise mat), walking then running very gently; making small, almost
imperceptible circles with hands. Handweights are light - 3-8 lb for the
women (we all started with 3 a few years ago; guys might use 10 now).
For me, it's like a cooldown after the other hand weight drills (6
drills with about 100 reps each). But what it's real purpose is, I've
never figured out (why would I want those long arm pendulums with
weights at the end?) and haven't asked - it just comes with the package,
most of which I do understand. Our instructor does come from a
gymnastics / lifting / martial arts background.

Dot

--
"Success is different things to different people"
-Bernd Heinrich in Racing the Antelope

Dot said:

Charlie Pendejo said:

Phil said:

Several times a week I see a guy running with dumbbells. [...] He
runs with his arms dangling from his shoulders, elbows almost
straight.

This morning I saw a guy doing the same thing at my local park. Dude
appeared to be a boxer - I'm guessing a light heavyweight, maybe
super middleweight (and yeah, I needed to google a cheat sheet for
that). I've seen a handful of boxer-looking guys at this park, but
this is the first time I've noticed one running straight-armed with
dumbbells like that.

We do that in xt class (all runners) - but just a couple laps (floor
exercise mat), walking then running very gently; making small, almost
imperceptible circles with hands. Handweights are light - 3-8 lb for
the women (we all started with 3 a few years ago; guys might use 10
now). For me, it's like a cooldown after the other hand weight drills
(6 drills with about 100 reps each). But what it's real purpose is,
I've never figured out (why would I want those long arm pendulums with
weights at the end?) and haven't asked - it just comes with the
package, most of which I do understand. Our instructor does come from
a gymnastics / lifting / martial arts background.

The guy I see appears to be carrying 10 lb weights. He dangles the
weights down around his thighs, arms slightly bent. It's almost like
he's a marionette and his arms are being controlled by attached strings.
Very odd.

--
Phil M.