Materials?

Hell and High Water said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

You forgot "bamboo".

This is a discussion that's been repeated over and over, here and
elsewhere. STFW.

Jeff

Hell and High Water said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

I don't know much about boron or scandium, just sound expensive to me.
As for the rest, I like the OPINIONS expressed on the Rivendell
website:

http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_pureopinions.html

My opinion:

Don't care for lightweight Aluminum frames, they dent way too easy -
check out all of the frames for sale on eBay with dents in the top
tube. One crash and you have to shell out more cash. Not repairable.
The straight gage (cheaper but high quality, not Kmart) aluminum frames
are pretty bomb proof. I rode one for ~7 years. My friends and I would
practice our "bunny hopping" skills by hopping on rocks and picnic
tables. We hit the chainstays and the bike went crashing to the ground
several times a day, never dented or broke. Those old Zaskar frames
were the best frames in the world. Again, not repairable.

Carbon fiber is the frame of the future. They ride nice, very good
fatigue resistance and look pretty. Take care of it and it will last.
Small scrapes and hits can cause failure, but this can be true for many
materials. The biggest problem to my understanding is damage can be
hard to detect in carbon frames and forks. Rivendell makes classic
steel frames, so they don't have many nice things to say about carbon.
Carbon fiber is repairable but most of the time just replaced.

I personally have two ti bikes, they ride nice and work well. They are
made of straight gage tubing, nothing special. Ti does not rust, no
need for a paint job and scratches buff right out with a scotch-brite
pad. Ti is repairable, but the cost is pretty damn high.

Steel has been beaten down over and over again by marketing people,
they say it is low end or cheap. In the end it makes a very practical
frame material. Steel rides nice, has good dent resistance and fatigues
very well. Steel is easy and cheap to repair. Buy a steel frame from a
good builder and it will last you many, many years.

Everyone talks about the "ride quality" ti and carbon, I honestly can't
tell much of a difference between ti, carbon and steel. Alum can cause
a tad harsher of a ride, but from what I understand the new lightweight
cannondales are pretty forgiving.

As for weight: if your racing, it matters. If your not, don't buy based
on lightweight. Lightweight components generally don't last as long.
They are expensive and need to be replaced more often. Spend your money
on something else.

If I had to buy again, I would probably buy plain old steel. Way to
much hype put into this kind of thing. Go ride the frames, buy the one
that feels good and fits in you budget.

-nate

Hell and High Water <[email hidden]> wrote in
news:[email hidden]:

Quoted message said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

How the material is used in a frame is just as, if not more, important than
what material was used. A carefully designed and built aluminum frame can
give you a much nicer ride than a poorly made titanium frame.

Frames are not primarily made from boron or scanadium. These are additives
that amount to only a small percentage of an alloy. Calling a frame
"scanadium" is pretty slimey when it is really 99% aluminum.

Per JeffWills:

Quoted message said:

You forgot "bamboo"

.... and titanium
--
PeteCresswell

Per Hell and High Water:

Quoted message said:

Aluminum
Steel

One diff that's relevant to me sometimes is abrasion resistance.

Steel will take a lot. You can wear a hole in alu just by drubbing a rope or
brake cable against it enough times...

Probably moot for bikes that get cared for properly, but in a rough-and-tumble
world I'd expect steel of have an edge durability-wise.
--
PeteCresswell

Hell and High Water said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon

(you mean plastic with carbon reinforcement)

Quoted message said:

Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

And don't forget Unobtainium.

the difference?

Some cost more than others. Otherwise, nothing important.

"bill" wrote: And don't forget Unobtainium. (clip)
^^^^^^^^^^^^^
I tried to order one of those, but my LBS said they were not available at
any price. I did find a seller in Nigeria who was willing to ship me one,
provided I sent the full payment in advance.

Hell and High Water said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon

Light, expensive, fashionable, usually hard to repair or modify, not
as resistant to casual damage as most metals.

Quoted message said:

Aluminum

Can be light, can be cheap, not fashionable at all.

Quoted message said:

Steel

Not a single material, but a wide range of alloys with substantial
variance in characteristics. As a class, steel is considered "oh so
19th century" by many fashion-driven riders; oddly enough, though,
it's favored by a large number of experienced riders whose focus is on
strength, reliability, and value.

Quoted message said:

Boron

As a minor-fraction component in steel alloys, it affords some
advantages over the use of plain carbon steel. Cr-Mo alloys are more
common.

Quoted message said:

Scandium

A minor additive to aluminum; essentially a buzzword in this context.

Not mentioned:

Titanium - Can be used to make corrosion-resistant frames that are
both light and strong, but has some issues with respect to fasteners.

Magnesium - Used as a fractional component in alloys with aluminum, it
stiffens the material but also makes it much more likely to crack.
IMO, magnesium alloys should be avoided.

You will notice that there are no claims made for "vibration damping",
"harshness", "compliance", "feel", etc., in the comments above. Frame
design factors have at least as much of a bearing on those qualities
as the choice of material.

Most of the mentioned materials can be employed to produce a frame
that is well suited to a wide variety of uses...but no single frame
design or material is going to be the perfect choice for all
applications. Any material can be used to produce a bad frame. The
mere use of a given substance or technique is not a guarantee that the
frame is right for what you want to do.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
Some gardening required to reply via email.
Words processed in a facility that contains nuts.

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per JeffWills:

Quoted message said:

You forgot "bamboo"

... and titanium

Californium as well.

"Hell and High Water" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

??

Thanks

-Bob

Boron is generally used in composites (Kestrel and Trek spring to mind).
composites generally have carbon and aramid fibres (Kevlar) . Some have
glass.

And not forgetting metal-matrix composites.

Skippy
E&OE

"Tosspot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per JeffWills:

Quoted message said:

You forgot "bamboo"

... and titanium

Californium as well.

And Beryllium.. great stuff, shame about the toxicity.

Quoted message said:

And Beryllium.. great stuff, shame about the toxicity.

Same as uranium, great for training at night though.

"Skippy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Tosspot" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

(PeteCresswell) said:

Per JeffWills:

>You forgot "bamboo"

... and titanium

Californium as well.

And Beryllium.. great stuff, shame about the toxicity.

Hell and High Water said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

Magnets only stick to the steel ones.

Ron

Skippy said:

"Hell and High Water" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

??

Thanks

-Bob

Boron is generally used in composites (Kestrel and Trek spring to
mind). composites generally have carbon and aramid fibres (Kevlar) . Some
have glass.

The Bianchi Boron XL apparently has some boron in the steel. From their
marketing-spew:

Triple-butted Boron steel alloy. Very high tensile strength of 1800N/mm2, 3
times stronger than the best aluminum alloys, 2 times stronger than titanium
alloy and 25% stronger than the best non-Boron steel alloys. An exclusive
heat-treated Boron steel alloy produced to Bianchi's specifications. MegaPro
downtube is 0.6mm thick at butts and only 0.4mm thick in the center.
Post-welding stresses eliminated by water quenching, tempering, heat
treatment and open air cooling.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

Llatikcuf said:

Hell and High Water said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

I don't know much about boron or scandium, just sound expensive to me.
As for the rest, I like the OPINIONS expressed on the Rivendell
website:

http://www.rivendellbicycles.com/html/101_pureopinions.html

My opinion:

Don't care for lightweight Aluminum frames, they dent way too easy -
check out all of the frames for sale on eBay with dents in the top
tube. One crash and you have to shell out more cash. Not repairable.
The straight gage (cheaper but high quality, not Kmart) aluminum
frames are pretty bomb proof. I rode one for ~7 years. My friends and
I would practice our "bunny hopping" skills by hopping on rocks and
picnic tables. We hit the chainstays and the bike went crashing to
the ground several times a day, never dented or broke. Those old
Zaskar frames were the best frames in the world. Again, not
repairable.

Carbon fiber is the frame of the future. They ride nice, very good
fatigue resistance and look pretty. Take care of it and it will last.
Small scrapes and hits can cause failure, but this can be true for
many materials. The biggest problem to my understanding is damage can
be hard to detect in carbon frames and forks. Rivendell makes classic
steel frames, so they don't have many nice things to say about carbon.
Carbon fiber is repairable but most of the time just replaced.

I personally have two ti bikes, they ride nice and work well. They are
made of straight gage tubing, nothing special. Ti does not rust, no
need for a paint job and scratches buff right out with a scotch-brite
pad. Ti is repairable, but the cost is pretty damn high.

You can even drop big wrenches on it and it doesn't leave a mark! Don't ask
me how I know.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

In article <A4hYf.4553$fS6.742@dukeread11>,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training"

Quoted message said:

Skippy said:

"Hell and High Water" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

??

Thanks

-Bob

Boron is generally used in composites (Kestrel and Trek spring to
mind). composites generally have carbon and aramid fibres (Kevlar) . Some
have glass.

The Bianchi Boron XL apparently has some boron in the steel. From their
marketing-spew:

Triple-butted Boron steel alloy. Very high tensile strength of 1800N/mm2, 3
times stronger than the best aluminum alloys, 2 times stronger than titanium
alloy and 25% stronger than the best non-Boron steel alloys. An exclusive
heat-treated Boron steel alloy produced to Bianchi's specifications. MegaPro
downtube is 0.6mm thick at butts and only 0.4mm thick in the center.
Post-welding stresses eliminated by water quenching, tempering, heat
treatment and open air cooling.

Who draws those tubes? What is triple butted? Is it double
butted with variable taper around the circumference of the
tube?

--
Michael Press

Michael Press said:

In article <A4hYf.4553$fS6.742@dukeread11>,
"Phil, Squid-in-Training"

Quoted message said:

Skippy said:

"Hell and High Water" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

>What are the main differences between frame materials??
>
>Carbon
>Aluminum
>Steel
>Boron
>Scandium
>
>
>??
>
>
>Thanks
>
>-Bob
>

Boron is generally used in composites (Kestrel and Trek spring to
mind). composites generally have carbon and aramid fibres (Kevlar) . Some
have glass.

The Bianchi Boron XL apparently has some boron in the steel. From their
marketing-spew:

Triple-butted Boron steel alloy. Very high tensile strength of 1800N/mm2, 3
times stronger than the best aluminum alloys, 2 times stronger than titanium
alloy and 25% stronger than the best non-Boron steel alloys. An exclusive
heat-treated Boron steel alloy produced to Bianchi's specifications. MegaPro
downtube is 0.6mm thick at butts and only 0.4mm thick in the center.
Post-welding stresses eliminated by water quenching, tempering, heat
treatment and open air cooling.

Who draws those tubes? What is triple butted?

triple butted? instead of something like 0.8-0.5-0.8, it's say
0.8-0.5-1.0. hypothetical example.

Quoted message said:

Is it double
butted with variable taper around the circumference of the
tube?

Hell and High Water said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

what's the difference between frames? subjective, that's what it is!

Quoted message said:

Carbon

carbon fiber reinforced plastic.

Quoted message said:

Aluminum

aluminum alloy. there's many.

Quoted message said:

Steel

steel alloy. there's many.

Quoted message said:

Boron

subset of steel. minute alloying of boron helps control grain size, a
useful property when welding.

Quoted message said:

Scandium

subset of aluminum. scandium helps control grain size on welding.

Quoted message said:

??

Thanks

-Bob

"Phil, Squid-in-Training" <[email hidden]> wrote in
message news:A4hYf.4553$fS6.742@dukeread11...

Quoted message said:

Skippy said:

"Hell and High Water" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

What are the main differences between frame materials??

Carbon
Aluminum
Steel
Boron
Scandium

??

Thanks

-Bob

Boron is generally used in composites (Kestrel and Trek spring to
mind). composites generally have carbon and aramid fibres (Kevlar) . Some
have glass.

The Bianchi Boron XL apparently has some boron in the steel. From their
marketing-spew:

Triple-butted Boron steel alloy. Very high tensile strength of 1800N/mm2,
3 times stronger than the best aluminum alloys, 2 times stronger than
titanium alloy and 25% stronger than the best non-Boron steel alloys. An
exclusive heat-treated Boron steel alloy produced to Bianchi's
specifications. MegaPro downtube is 0.6mm thick at butts and only 0.4mm
thick in the center. Post-welding stresses eliminated by water quenching,
tempering, heat treatment and open air cooling.

--
Phil, Squid-in-Training

I'm sure almost every element has been tried in alloys of steel, aluminium
and titanium. Trek market on the fact that they've got zirconium in their
ZR9000 stuff. Gaint used to go on about the copper in their CU92. Definite
marketting waffle though, no mention of modulus.

Skippy
E&OE