Gunk on Chain

Kenny said:

Took out a brand new chain to replace the worn one. The new chain had a
really sticky, gummy like feel to it. I figured I'd better clean the
gunk off of it before installing it. I put the new chain in a metal
cannister and then poured in a citrus based degreaser (undiluted) until
the chain was completely submerged by it. I've used this degreaser many
times before with good results.

The gunk on the chain is a nice, thick lubricant -- it works well
inside the chain but not outside (where it picks up dirt too easily).
With new chains, a good practice is to use a rag soaked in degreaser
to wipe it off the outside. That'll leave it inside.

JT

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John Forrest Tomlinson said:

The gunk on the chain is a nice, thick lubricant --
JT

Sorry, not. The stuff is a protectant, not a lubricant. Clean it
throughly and use a real chain lube.
Phil Brown

Kenny said:

Took out a brand new chain to replace the worn one. The new chain had a
really sticky, gummy like feel to it. I figured I'd better clean the
gunk off of it before installing it.

If this was an SRAM chain, the sticky, gummy stuff you removed was an
exceptionally good and obscenely expensive chain lube called Gleitmo.
Removing it probably reduced the life expectancy of the chain.

Quoted message said:

I put the new chain in a metal
cannister and then poured in a citrus based degreaser (undiluted) until
the chain was completely submerged by it.

Perhaps you might want to read the SRAM chain maintenance instructions
sometime. They explicitly advise against this. There is no
explanation given.

If your "citrus based cleaner" was Simple Green, you're in for a
surprise; it's not citrus-based.

Quoted message said:

I've used this degreaser many
times before with good results. Well, I let the chain soak for about 4
hours. After four hours the degreasing solution had no effect on the
chain gunk. It seemed to make the chain more gunkier and gooey.

Probably having diminished the effectiveness of the lubricant in the
process.

Quoted message said:

Being
the impatient type I switched from a citrus based solvent to a
petroleum one, that being kerosene. Soaked the gummy chain in kerosene
and the muck came right off.

Well, there went the factory's lube.

Quoted message said:

The kerosene that I used was supposed to
be recycled a long time ago because it had been used over and over
again and was already a brownish-yellow color, but it still worked this
one last time. It was interesting to note that when I went to pour the
kerosene back into its container I noticed a clear substance suspended
in the kerosene. I guess it may have been the stuff washed off of the
chain.

No, that would have been the fraction of the cleaner which had become
mixed with the lubricant, and the additional amount of the cleaner
that had been trapped between the side plates and in the rollers.

Quoted message said:

But then why didn't it mix into solution with the kerosene?

Because it wasn't miscible with kerosene, obviously. Likely, it's
water-based.

Quoted message said:

Also
why didn't the original citrus based degreaser have any effect on the
chain gunk? Any ideas? Don't really want to go back to using kerosene.

Okay. First, as mentioned above, many chains are shipped
pre-lubricated with stuff that's better at protecting the chain than
just about anything that you can buy as chain lube yourself. Most of
the rest are shipped with a lube applied that's at least as good as
the best you can buy. Washing off the factory lube before
installation is a bad idea; just take the new chain from the package,
match it for length to the old one, and install it. Follow the
manufacturer's recommendations for cleaning and re-lube as needed.

Second, some citrus-based cleaner formulations are slightly acidic; as
a result, they may etch the metal that they come into contact with.
This is not a good thing with a chain; etching can create grain lines
in the metal that form stress risers which can lead to the side plates
splitting from the eye to the edge.
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On 28 Feb 2006 08:34:34 -0800, "philcycles" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

The gunk on the chain is a nice, thick lubricant --
JT

Sorry, not. The stuff is a protectant, not a lubricant. Clean it
throughly and use a real chain lube.

I agree with JFT; in the majority of cases, the thick gunk is, in
fact, a really good lubricant. Removing it is a bad idea. This is
particularly true for SRAM chains.
--
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Werehatrack said:

Second, some citrus-based cleaner formulations are slightly acidic; as
a result, they may etch the metal that they come into contact with.
This is not a good thing with a chain; etching can create grain lines
in the metal that form stress risers which can lead to the side plates
splitting from the eye to the edge.

Use kerosene or other petroleum based solvent to clean chains. Never use
a citrus based product or Simple Green.

What is the fascination with these other cleaners, when they are
ineffective, damaging, and more expensive than kerosene?

SMS said:

Werehatrack said:

Second, some citrus-based cleaner formulations are slightly acidic; as
a result, they may etch the metal that they come into contact with.
This is not a good thing with a chain; etching can create grain lines
in the metal that form stress risers which can lead to the side plates
splitting from the eye to the edge.

Use kerosene or other petroleum based solvent to clean chains. Never use
a citrus based product or Simple Green.

What is the fascination with these other cleaners, when they are
ineffective, damaging, and more expensive than kerosene?

Because there are other things to worry about besides your chain. Like
your health and the health of those around you.

--
Dave T.
http://www.flickr.com/photos/timandmegan/

On Tue, 28 Feb 2006 10:53:31 -0700, Dave T <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

SMS said:

Werehatrack said:

Second, some citrus-based cleaner formulations are slightly acidic; as
a result, they may etch the metal that they come into contact with.
This is not a good thing with a chain; etching can create grain lines
in the metal that form stress risers which can lead to the side plates
splitting from the eye to the edge.

Use kerosene or other petroleum based solvent to clean chains. Never use
a citrus based product or Simple Green.

What is the fascination with these other cleaners, when they are
ineffective, damaging, and more expensive than kerosene?

Because there are other things to worry about besides your chain. Like
your health and the health of those around you.

And as far as I can tell, no one seems to have actually proven that
aggressively solvent- or detergent-cleaning a chain significantly
extends its life relative to a lube-and-wipe regimen anyway.

(I will note the obvious exception of the bike whose chain suffers
from exposure to the elements after its eviction from the domicile
owing to the filthy chain's presence; cleaning is sometimes a
necessity for reasons that have nothing to do with directly trying to
extend the chain's life.)

Egad. This seems to be devolving into yet another of Those Threads.
I think I'll duck out and go wear some of the tread off a tire. The
weather's too nice to be sitting here.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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philcycles said:

Sorry, not. The stuff is a protectant, not a lubricant. Clean it
throughly and use a real chain lube.

No, it's an excellent lubricant. You think bike shops clean the chains
on new bikes? The stuff used by SRAM is made by Gleitmo and is a
special lubricant for roller chains.

The chain in questions is the cheapest 9sp chain sold by KMC. Whom, as
they claim, is one of the largest roller chain makers in the world. It
came in a plastic bag with no instructions or quick-link. The goo on
the chain was so viscous that after the kerosene bath it still wasn't
completely clean. Maybe it was a very good lubricant but it sure would
have picked up a lot of road muck after only a couple of rides. I
think that on the next chain change I'll use a rag wet with kerosene
and try to just get the gunk off of the side plates and keep the
factory lube in use where it's needed most.

Kenny said:

The chain in questions is the cheapest 9sp chain sold by KMC. Whom, as
they claim, is one of the largest roller chain makers in the world. It
came in a plastic bag with no instructions or quick-link. The goo on
the chain was so viscous that after the kerosene bath it still wasn't
completely clean. Maybe it was a very good lubricant but it sure would
have picked up a lot of road muck after only a couple of rides. I
think that on the next chain change I'll use a rag wet with kerosene
and try to just get the gunk off of the side plates and keep the
factory lube in use where it's needed most.

I've found the best solvent for this is a little carb cleaner sprayed into
a rag. It's strong enough to remove even the stickiest cosmoline without
being too wet and getting into the links.

Matt O.

Kenny said:

The chain in questions is the cheapest 9sp chain sold by KMC. Whom, as
they claim, is one of the largest roller chain makers in the world. It
came in a plastic bag with no instructions or quick-link. The goo on
the chain was so viscous that after the kerosene bath it still wasn't
completely clean. Maybe it was a very good lubricant but it sure would
have picked up a lot of road muck after only a couple of rides. I
think that on the next chain change I'll use a rag wet with kerosene
and try to just get the gunk off of the side plates and keep the
factory lube in use where it's needed most.

That sounds like a worthwhile compromise.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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Kenny said:

Took out a brand new chain to replace the worn one. The new chain had a
really sticky, gummy like feel to it. I figured I'd better clean the
gunk off of it before installing it. I put the new chain in a metal
cannister and then poured in a citrus based degreaser (undiluted) until
the chain was completely submerged by it. I've used this degreaser many
times before with good results. Well, I let the chain soak for about 4
hours. After four hours the degreasing solution had no effect on the
chain gunk. It seemed to make the chain more gunkier and gooey. Being
the impatient type I switched from a citrus based solvent to a
petroleum one, that being kerosene. Soaked the gummy chain in kerosene
and the muck came right off. The kerosene that I used was supposed to
be recycled a long time ago because it had been used over and over
again and was already a brownish-yellow color, but it still worked this
one last time. It was interesting to note that when I went to pour the
kerosene back into its container I noticed a clear substance suspended
in the kerosene. I guess it may have been the stuff washed off of the
chain. But then why didn't it mix into solution with the kerosene? Also
why didn't the original citrus based degreaser have any effect on the
chain gunk? Any ideas? Don't really want to go back to using kerosene.

That stuff is a preservative, antirust stuff. Don't know why a water
based solvent won't take it off but as a rust inhibator, not surprised.
I use WD-40-great solvent.

Zog The Undeniable said:

philcycles said:

Sorry, not. The stuff is a protectant, not a lubricant. Clean it
throughly and use a real chain lube.

No, it's an excellent lubricant. You think bike shops clean the chains
on new bikes? The stuff used by SRAM is made by Gleitmo and is a
special lubricant for roller chains.

Why yes we do, take the crappola off. It attracts dirt better than
anything I have seen. New bikes from other places come in for service,
with chains that were not cleaned and are black from dirt and [censored] that
is stuck to the chain. You might as well use 15w-30 if you like the
stuff on new chains.

Qui si parla Campagnolo said:

Kenny said:

Took out a brand new chain to replace the worn one. The new chain had a
really sticky, gummy like feel to it. I figured I'd better clean the
gunk off of it before installing it. I put the new chain in a metal
cannister and then poured in a citrus based degreaser (undiluted) until
the chain was completely submerged by it. I've used this degreaser many
times before with good results. Well, I let the chain soak for about 4
hours. After four hours the degreasing solution had no effect on the
chain gunk. It seemed to make the chain more gunkier and gooey. Being
the impatient type I switched from a citrus based solvent to a
petroleum one, that being kerosene. Soaked the gummy chain in kerosene
and the muck came right off. The kerosene that I used was supposed to
be recycled a long time ago because it had been used over and over
again and was already a brownish-yellow color, but it still worked this
one last time. It was interesting to note that when I went to pour the
kerosene back into its container I noticed a clear substance suspended
in the kerosene. I guess it may have been the stuff washed off of the
chain. But then why didn't it mix into solution with the kerosene? Also
why didn't the original citrus based degreaser have any effect on the
chain gunk? Any ideas? Don't really want to go back to using kerosene.

That stuff is a preservative, antirust stuff. Don't know why a water
based solvent won't take it off but as a rust inhibator, not surprised.
I use WD-40-great solvent.

The chain in question is a KMC, as noted in another part of the
thread.

This is the reply I received when I asked KMC's US office about the
coating on their bike chains:

Quoted message said:

Thank you for your e-mail regarding lubricant on KMC chain.

Our chains are lubed with light grease. It is not preservative coating and
it is not necessary to remove prior to installation.

Please feel free to contact us should you have further question.

Best regards,
Customer Service Department
Continental Chain Company, Inc.

Thus far, the number of chain manufacturers that I have verified are
using a lubricant coating on their chains is 3 (SRAM, Shimano and
KMC), and the number verified as using a preservative is zero. I have
not inquired of Wippermann or Campagnolo yet.
--
Typoes are a feature, not a bug.
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philcycles said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

The gunk on the chain is a nice, thick lubricant --
JT

Sorry, not. The stuff is a protectant, not a lubricant. Clean it
throughly and use a real chain lube.

With what do you protect a chain other than a lubricant? Varnish?
Epoxy? Why would a manufacturer use anything other than a lubricant?

SRAM chains are ideally lubricated from the factory. You can wipe off
excess with a dry rag, but I have found too little to bother with that.
They stay very clean.,

41 said:

philcycles said:

John Forrest Tomlinson said:

The gunk on the chain is a nice, thick lubricant --
JT

Sorry, not. The stuff is a protectant, not a lubricant. Clean it
throughly and use a real chain lube.

With what do you protect a chain other than a lubricant? Varnish?
Epoxy?

In many instances, metallic parts are coated with a waxy substance
(Cosmolene being the trademarked name of one of the more popular
brands) whose sole purpose is to prevent corrosion between the date of
manufacture of an item and the date of its installation.

Quoted message said:

Why would a manufacturer use anything other than a lubricant?

In the case of Cosmolene, it allows the part to be handled in
transportation cleanly while still protecting it from damage.

Quoted message said:

SRAM chains are ideally lubricated from the factory. You can wipe off
excess with a dry rag, but I have found too little to bother with that.
They stay very clean.,

SRAM uses an unusual lube, Gleitmo. I found a source for it, but it's
more expensive than the highest-priced boutique chain lube that I've
seen, and it can only be ordered by the case (at well over $200 for
the smallest available order quantity). Shimano's lubricant coating
is similar to a light grease. KMC uses a thicker grease which I
suspect is applied hot. I have no data about Campagnolo's initial
lubricant or protective coatings (other than an oblique reference on
their website to the effect that they are using a PTFE coating), but
their current maintenance instructions explicitly advise not to clean
their current chains with solvents, stating that they should be wiped
with a clean cloth and then lubricated with oil. Wippermann provides
no details about lubricant or protective coatings that I could find on
their website.
--
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Where's the hatrack said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Took out a brand new chain to replace the worn one. The new chain
had a really sticky, gummy like feel to it. I figured I'd better
clean the gunk off of it before installing it. I put the new
chain in a metal cannister and then poured in a citrus based
degreaser (undiluted) until the chain was completely submerged by
it. I've used this degreaser many times before with good results.
Well, I let the chain soak for about 4 hours. After four hours
the degreasing solution had no effect on the chain gunk. It
seemed to make the chain more gunkier and gooey.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Being the impatient type I switched from a citrus based solvent to
a petroleum one, that being kerosene. Soaked the gummy chain in
kerosene and the muck came right off. The kerosene that I used
was supposed to be recycled a long time ago because it had been
used over and over again and was already a brownish-yellow color,
but it still worked this one last time. It was interesting to
note that when I went to pour the kerosene back into its container
I noticed a clear substance suspended in the kerosene.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

I guess it may have been the stuff washed off of the chain. But
then why didn't it mix into solution with the kerosene? Also why
didn't the original citrus based degreaser have any effect on the
chain gunk? Any ideas? Don't really want to go back to using
kerosene.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

That stuff is a preservative, antirust stuff. Don't know why a
water based solvent won't take it off but as a rust inhibator, not
surprised. I use WD-40-great solvent.

Quoted message said:

The chain in question is a KMC, as noted elsewhere.

Quoted message said:

This is the reply I received when I asked KMC's US office about the
coating on their bike chains:

# Thank you for your e-mail regarding lubricant on KMC chain.

# Our chains are lubed with light grease. It is not preservative
# coating and it is not necessary to remove prior to installation.

# Please feel free to contact us should you have further question.

# Best regards,
# Customer Service Department
# Continental Chain Company, Inc.

Quoted message said:

Thus far, the number of chain manufacturers that I have verified are
using a lubricant coating on their chains is 3 (SRAM, Shimano and
KMC), and the number verified as using a preservative is zero. I
have not inquired of Wippermann or Campagnolo yet.

You are fighting a losing battle. This is one of the high holies for
chain care zealots and you cannot dispel it. It just begs for
faithful belief. The FAQ and many threads in the past have taken this
up to no avail:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html

Just imagine OEM bicycle manufacturers buying chains to equip their
bicycle and receiving them with the wrong lubricant. Trek can easily
tell a chain manufacturer what to put on their chains, and would if
they arrived improperly lubricated.

Jobst Brandt

Werehatrack said:

41 said:

philcycles said:

John Forrest Tomlinson wrote:

> The gunk on the chain is a nice, thick lubricant --
> JT
>
Sorry, not. The s tuff is a protectant, not a lubricant. Clean it
throughly and use a real chain lube.

With what do you protect a chain other than a lubricant? Varnish?
Epoxy?

In many instances, metallic parts are coated with a waxy substance
(Cosmol ene being the trademarked name of one of the more popular
brands) whose sole purpose is to prevent corrosion between the date of
manufacture of an item and the date of its installation.

Quoted message said:

Why would a manufacturer use anything other than a lubricant?

In the case of Cosmolene, it allows the part to be handled in
transportation cleanly while still protecting it from damage.

Sure, but that is of no use for bicycle chains.

In article <[email hidden]>,

Quoted message said:

Where's the hatrack writes:

[...]

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Thus far, the number of chain manufacturers that I have verified are
using a lubricant coating on their chains is 3 (SRAM, Shimano and
KMC), and the number verified as using a preservative is zero. I
have not inquired of Wippermann or Campagnolo yet.

You are fighting a losing battle. This is one of the high holies for
chain care zealots and you cannot dispel it. It just begs for
faithful belief. The FAQ and many threads in the past have taken this
up to no avail:

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/brandt/chain-care.html

Just imagine OEM bicycle manufacturers buying chains to equip their
bicycle and receiving them with the wrong lubricant. Trek can easily
tell a chain manufacturer what to put on their chains, and would if
they arrived improperly lubricated.

This is what so surprises me. I had thought it was a
simple matter where everyone managed their chain as they
pleased. I am glad so many people took time to document
their methods, because I could then productively review
mine. Yet it cannot be discussed without a
disproportionate number of people acting threatened.

--
Michael Press