Cheap titanium frames

Michael Green said:

I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various places. Anybody know anything
about them?

If you mean the Raleigh "Timet" road frame, yes, I've got one and am pleased with it. Until I found
this frame, I never dreamt I could ever have owned a bike as good as the one I built with this.

Quoted message said:

Where are they from?

Designed and welded (a few years ago) by Raleigh Special Products in Nottingham, England using
tubing from Timet in Germany, drawn and butted by Reynolds.

Quoted message said:

Are they any good?

Certainly good for the money*, in my opinion. The tubing is Enhanced Commercially Pure Grade 2
Titanium** - which is relatively soft compared to the alloys (with more aluminium content) the likes
of Airbourne and Litespeed use. BUT, to make up for this, the tubes are oversized - in particular,
the teardrop-shaped downtube is 64mm! The end result is a frame that's almost as good in practice as
the best but just weighs a little bit more and has a three figure price tag instead of four. Metal
fatigue is a non-issue in this case (according to a bloke from Timet who doesn't have any direct
interest in this frame)**.

My 60cm weighs 1646g (with braze-ons & bb cable guide) excluding forks (frame does not come with
matching forks). The bare frame felt incredibly light to me considering its size. Bear in mind that
you might need a longer (therefore heavier) seatpost, stem and fork steerer with compact Al frames
that happen to be lighter.

Lateral stiffness test: technology.open.ac.ukbikeframe.htmlOpen ↗
- Basically, the Timet beats the [censored] out of everything else tested! :-)
- To be fair, I'm not sure if the test used the best method. Flex at the BB is quite noticeable to
me when sprinting - but I suppose it is anyway with many/most lightweight frames, and I'm not
sure how much is down to my triple Veloce crankset. Still accelerates and climbs wickedly.

Quoted message said:

should cheap and titanium be seen together? I don't know.

It's a reasonable combination in this case because it's a discontinued model and not the fanciest
grade of Ti and doesn't have a flash finish or a fashionable brand name. I think it's at least as
good value as similar priced aluminium frames, maybe much better (?). Extra plus points are that it
should last a lifetime and doesn't require any maintenance (has and needs no paint). Some users also
claim it gives a very comfortable ride. I find my bike more comfortable than my previous steel Dawes
Giro 500 but I'm not sure how much of that is due to the frame material.

My only slight concern is the finish which seems to be some kind of oxidised job. I've read vague
theories about this sort of thing leading to frame cracking. But I'm not at all sure about this and
just mention it for the sake of honesty.

* when bought at the current "sale" or second-hand prices.

** "The fact that your frame is not 6-4 or 3-2.5 should not concern you; the marketing in the
magazines about the benefits of those two alloys is mainly fluffery. The modulus of elasticity is
essentially the same among all the alloys, and the fatigue loading for a road bike should be of no
concern unless you are expecting the frame to last more than many million miles." "...'Enhanced
strength' Commercially Pure tube....Basically this was unannealed to get the Gr2 chemistry material
to strengths up to Gr4 'equivalent'"

~PB

Michael, I am no expert when it comes to titanium and bike frames. However, what I can tell you is
that titanium is a real [censored] to work with - I used to work with it on gas platforms in the Gulf. It
is very difficult to weld cleanly because of its melting point and the metal working tools and
machinery used to work it are expensive since they must be very tough to stop the titanium wearing
them out. The welding rod is also very expensive. I think certain alloys of titanium (such as
vanadium) have been designed to counter this but they have one thing in common - they are expensive.
Titanium is also used in some very glamorous environments like airplane frames, the space shuttle
and parts of Formula 1 chassis where it's great strength and lightness are so useful. I am therefore
quite surprised that you can get bicycle frames made of this metal cheap like you mention. Surely
the quality must be a bit ropey?

Slimbo

"Michael Green" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various places. Anybody know anything
about them? Where are they from? Are they any good? Anyone else seen them, or did I imagine them?
Hmm, should cheap and titanium be seen together? I don't know.

(Michael Green) said:

I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various places.

How cheap is cheap ?

Quoted message said:

Anybody know anything about them? Where are they from?

The alloy usually gives it away. Anything with zirconium is Russian,
3/2.5 (the best alloy for bike frames) is probably Chinese, CP is Swedish and 6/4 is dumb Yanks who
don't realise that "less is more" (watch for your back wheel falling out of the dropout !)

Ti isn't too expensive to buy, to make tubes from, or to weld a basic frame. Machining is expensive
though, as is forming complex non-round tubes. So a "cheap" Ti frame is often quite workable, but
has ugly detailing. The bottle cage & cable mounts are ally rivet-ons, the seatpost clamp is
separate, and there's no mud clearance around the lower stays into the BB.

Quoted message said:

should cheap and titanium be seen together?

Yes. Bulk Ti is a fraction of the price it was a decade ago I make furniture out of it:
codesmiths.commirrorsOpen ↗

As for bikes, I've been riding a Habanero hardtail MTB (Chinese welded, sold by a guy in Florida
who's a regular in rec.bikes) since '97 and I love it.

PS - If you do get it, then be scrupulous about copper-based anti-seize compound or generous
threadlock on all mechanical conenctions, and don't even think about using a Ti bolt
threaded into
it. Small Ti-Ti threads are an abomination for galling.

Andy Dingley said:

Quoted message said:

I've seen cheap titanium frames, some marked Raleigh, in various places.

How cheap is cheap ?

Latest "sale" prices were £250 to £300. One dealer claimed the original price was £600 (although I
don't know how far that dates back to).

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Anybody know anything about them? Where are they from?

The alloy usually gives it away. Anything with zirconium is Russian,
3/2.5 (the best alloy for bike frames) is probably Chinese, CP is Swedish

Or German. (See my previous reply).

~PB

Blimey, what an excellent and comprehesive reply Pete, it only remains to ask, has anyone seen any
lately? Thanks.

Pete Biggs said:

Quoted message said:

CP is Swedish

Or German. (See my previous reply).

Bet you it's Sandvik who made the tubes though 8-)