Crapped & Burned: NYC

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

(Definite Non Fiction)

You did the right thing. You were sick, you're still fit, and you weren't
able to run hard enough to mess yourself up. You'll have a good race soon.
Heck, if I were you (and I was once in a similar situation), I'd find me
another marathon in 4 - 5 weeks.

My bet is food poisoning, an intestinal bug of some sort. Especially since
you are no stranger to spicy foods.

My armchair speculations echo yours: You were not able to absorb nutrients
in the important last day, and you went in with 1/2 tank in the quads and
liver. The immodium and/or the underlying condition made it difficult for
your gut to absorb water, making things even worse.

-- Dan

"Do real men really use the words
Tummy & potty ~ ?"
~ Folly

Quoted message said:

Executive summary: http://tinypic.com/fdf33l.jpg

Charming!

Quoted message said:

I had known damn well, "don't try anything new" and yada yada.

....and yada

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I'm basically in 3:15 shape on this course.

Except for the yada.

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And maybe bailing when I did allows me to take advantage of this peak
fitness I think I've got in another race or two this next month before
it withers away.

Definitely! Why waste all that training?

Quoted message said:

Maybe I'll duel #666 in the Stockade-athon after all... would it be
insane to think of giving Philly's 42k a try in two weeks or Seattle's
in three?

I'd treat this as your final long-ish run and start another 2 or 3-week
taper. Philadelphia looks good, but it ain't no New York (but what is?).

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Or admit that I'm so old and slow it's time to move on to ultras

I heard that! Let's just leave the ultras to the curmudgeons of
rec.running. ;-)

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and give the Knickerbocker 60k a shot in 3 weeks?

Hey, ya'll come down to abalama and join me for the Dizzy Fifties 50K.
It'll be a festival of curmudgeons.

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Pendejo, specializing in marathon disasters

But they make for a great read! Thanks for the report. I'm looking forward
to seeing what race you'll be doing soon.

--
Phil M.

Quoted message said:

... The immodium and/or the underlying condition made it
difficult for your gut to absorb water, making things
even worse.

oh? is this a side effect of immodium? i've never used it, but
i had just made a mental norte to look into it for
next year. i'd like to have something in my kit
that will stop the poopers. lookd like i'll need to
check into this more.
....thehick

On 6 Nov 2005 14:02:18 -0800, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

...
In the end I saw no reason to walk the last 8 miles, maybe with a bit
of slow jogging. I realize many people feel it's crucial to avoid a
DNF no matter what; but - at least for a race this distance or more -
I'm not one of 'em. I was racing this race to race (or time trial,
y'all know what I meant), not to prove I could move 26 miles in one
day, certainly not if the last 13 took 3 hours.

....
since your goal from the start of that long thread where everyone said
you couldn't do it was to race or die trying, DNF is fine. for me,
i would me very unhappy. my goal is different. hard to
understand why you made those booboos the last couple of days.
my little group of runners (not racers) work from a written plan
and it states clearly "Nothing New". we went over the plan
twice in the week prior to our marathon last month. one of
us didn't heed the advice of "Injury prevention" and wasted
his entrance fee on a couldn't-start. now he knows.

good luck in the future. as a racer, it was a good idea
to save yourself. hope the next month will be better.
....thehick

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

... The immodium and/or the underlying condition made it
difficult for your gut to absorb water, making things
even worse.

oh? is this a side effect of immodium?

That was just a SWAG (simple wild-ass guess) on my part, Frank.
I don't understand how the stuff works, but sounds like it would be a good
thing to look into if you're planning on using it during races.

I don't even take nasids during races, 'cause they work so well at killing
pain that I end up hurting myself more.

"frank-in-toronto" <[email hidden]> wrote

.... hard to

Quoted message said:

understand why you made those booboos the last couple of days.
my little group of runners (not racers) work from a written plan
and it states clearly "Nothing New". we went over the plan
twice in the week prior to our marathon last month.

If CP is anything like thick-headed little-old me, this is how he will learn
the "Nothing New" mantra. Most of the stuff I preach I learned the hard
way, not the smart way (listening to others).

Dan Stumpus said:

frank-in-toronto said:

... hard to understand why you made those booboos the last couple
of days. my little group of runners (not racers) work from a written plan

If CP is anything like thick-headed little-old me, this is how he will
learn the "Nothing New" mantra.

Indeed. I try to pick up a lot of stuff from others' experience and
advice; but I truly *learn* things this way.

frank: yeah, I agree, it's pretty unbelievable. I never before would
have thought of a written plan for the final days - that's just not how
I tend to operate (or as the kids say, "how I roll"😉 - but on the train
home I had arrived at the same conclusion. Next time, I'll have some
kind of hard-copy script with the important points.

(And actually, I *did* have several pages of Ozzie's psyching pseries
pstuff, which I read and re-read. I just also need some practical
reminders like "hey Pendejo, remember what Hammer Gel does to your
system - don't you think the free sample of Hammer Bar or Hammer Toe
Snacks or Hammer Cheese Sandwich might do the same"😉

It's clearly necessary, at least for this ADD-prone runner when in the
throes of taper madness.

Hey frank, is your written plan anything you can share with me or with
this group?

Twittering One said:

"Do real men really use the words
Tummy & potty ~ ?"
~ Folly

Sometimes we do. It's the little boy in us.

Pendejo....it was tough out there. it was your first NYCM...and i
think you kind of gotta earn your rights to passage on this damn
course/race to do it well.

i did "OK" my first time, stunk the last two. next year will be #4 for
me and all i can do is for once try and get it right. but even
then...anything can happen on any given day. you can do things to
improve your odds...but at the end of the day, it's all just a spin of
the wheel.

congratulations pendejo.

On 6 Nov 2005 15:52:46 -0800, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>
wrote:
....

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Hey frank, is your written plan anything you can share with me or with
this group?

sure. it wasn't written for this audience, but i'll be happy to
share it nonetheless. any criticism is very welcome.
it's a pdf file. go to:
http://members.lycos.co.uk/threeofus/
and click on Race Checklist. In case you're interested,
I'm the tall handsome guy (haha).

It's tailored for the only marathon we three have been
running which is in Toronto in October. So precious
little heat related advice. I'm thinking on that for next year.
....thehick

Quoted message said:

Pendejo....it was tough out there. it was your first NYCM...and i
think you kind of gotta earn your rights to passage on this damn
course/race to do it well.

What makes this course so tough?

--
Phil M.

phil.....i'm still dizzy...but i heard Target won?....is that
right?....at 2:09. would be great to ask him that same question...no?
in my first NYCM...when the temps hit 70....the elite men, the winners
were punished in their times by 2 minutes...and they were only on the
course to 11:20 - 11: 30. (2+ hours)....

Mortals like me and Pendejo....we're on the course for 3, 4+ hours.
the last 3 years the temps and the course take their toll on mortals
big time. In my first 2 NYCMs...I did not notice the gradual climbs.
But let me tell you...there are a lot of gradual climbs on that course.
Also note...there are 2,000,000 fans screaming their heads off on the
course. Ya know what...they spur you on to run faster than you
normally would. There's a frenzy during most of your run....it's a
combination of the millions of fans...and the international
competition...it "feels" like the Olympics. You have running teams
from France, Italy, Japan, etc....and it all becomes a "Craze"......

I've noted....in my local NYC racing?....I am allowed to get into
me...it's quiet....I can focus and get into my "flow". This
race?....man...you are surrounded by millions blowing whistles
non-stop, bands galore...it's crazy. Constant commotion. The
opposite of a trail run. that stuff doesn't "motivate you"...it
"distracts you". It's so so so different than what you're used to.
It's fun, it's a blast....but it has a seducing effect....at least
that's my opinion.

I spoke with about 10 runners post race....and in 3 years...i've never
met a runner who thought they ran well. Now sure....we all gripe and
want more...but c'mon...runner's confide w/runners many times...and at
NYC...the runners from ROTW (rest of the world) always complain about 2
x 1/2M + 20+ results....but it's very much true to form...regardless of
from where you are...

Charlie - Do Not Fear.

I'd say you've definitely got a good one in you. Do yourself a favour
and choose a nice flat course in a few weeks time. You've just run a half
marathon at MP plus a few slower miles. It looks like the stomach bug/lack
of nutrition did you in. Smart decision to DNF.

Great report and very entertaining - sorry that it didn't work out as you
had planned, but it will make the next one a lot sweeter.

Anthony.

Charlie Pendejo said:

<I haven't read any of the ng since Saturday afternoon, but saw lance's
title and figured I'd steal it for my post. Congrats to lance for, er,
gutting it out.>

[...]

I pulled out of my last marathon (London 2003). It's no big deal -
just a race. I was in great shape prior to the race, but unlike you I
spent the preceding day in my hotel room stuffing my face with carbs
and water. It didn't work for me, and I dropped out at half way.

Use your current training level and find another marathon in the next
month to 6 weeks. I'm sure you'll go well.

Edward

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Now accepting "I told you so's" and other insults. Keep 'em colorful!

No insults merely stop reading those bloody prediction charts. So rather
than trying a slower pace, more likely finishing and then saying I can
make changes X & Y next year to take more time off the clock, you are
exactly where you were last year. You are no further along in mapping
your training to your results unless you simply want an A for big balls.
BTW, I see nothing wrong with the DNF, you have to know when to fold
them. Marathons take big cajones in the second half not out of the gate.

So what did you learn? You learned some good things about training. What
did you learn about race day? Will you justify the results as not speed
related and do the same thing next time?

-DougF

Charlie Pendejo said:

Taper madness also made me forget to sign up for the 3:15 pace group on
Friday. So with some trepidation ("but everyone says I'm supposed to
stay off my feet the day before... and I'm not sure if I really get any
benefit from signing up" [nope]) I returned to the expo Saturday. On
an empty stomach and not as well hydrated as I ought to be. Oh how
convenient, they've got free samples of all kinds of Power-this and
Gu-that, all of it straight from the chemistry lab.

In a few short hours Charlie Pendejo has metamorphosed into Homer
Simpson:-(

Quoted message said:

And maybe bailing when I did allows me to take advantage of this peak
fitness I think I've got in another race or two this next month before
it withers away. Maybe I'll duel #666 in the Stockade-athon after
all... would it be insane to think of giving Philly's 42k a try in two
weeks or Seattle's in three?

You've essentially just done the kind of long MP run which many coaches
consider indispensable before a key marathon race. However, IMHO even
Seattle comes a little too soon, I'd like to see five weeks between the
"test race" and the "proper try".

OTOH if there's no suitable alternative on the calendar, you wouldn't
necessarily be a
complete fool to give it a try. Which is not to say that running a
serious tapered HM or 10K race in two or three weeks wouldn't be as
challenging and satisfying a way to pick up the pieces and to make the
most of the training you've done.

Quoted message said:

So, Pendejo remains a one-time super-4:00:00 marathon finisher. And my
pride certainly wenteth before my fall, and the race I had trained for
and fixated on so completely for so long went nothing like the script.

If it wasn't an intrinsinc quality of marathons that they have an
uncomfortably high propability of going nothing or at least very little
like the script we cannot help writing for them, we wouldn't enjoy
training, preparing and running them half as much.

(And it is expressly because we cannot help writing the emotional
reward after a succesful race into our script that the letdown after a
poor or mildly disastrous marathon is so huge that what we actually
feel then somehow seems insufficient, as if were proof that we simply
hadn't "wanted to succeed" strongly enough...)

Anders

Charlie Pendejo said:

<I haven't read any of the ng since Saturday afternoon, but saw lance's
title and figured I'd steal it for my post. Congrats to lance for, er,
gutting it out.>

- - -

Executive summary: http://tinypic.com/fdf33l.jpg

- - -

Deena Not Found

Beginning of the end was the NYCM expo, which is mandatory - you swap
the card they've mailed you for your bib there. Couldn't go Thursday:
work emergency kept me from leaving. Friday I picked up my number, but
taper madness caused me to misread the schedule and miss meeting Deena.

Dumbass Nutritional Faux_pas

Taper madness also made me forget to sign up for the 3:15 pace group on
Friday. So with some trepidation ("but everyone says I'm supposed to
stay off my feet the day before... and I'm not sure if I really get any
benefit from signing up" [nope]) I returned to the expo Saturday. On
an empty stomach and not as well hydrated as I ought to be. Oh how
convenient, they've got free samples of all kinds of Power-this and
Gu-that, all of it straight from the chemistry lab.

Diarrhea's Not Funny

Well sure it's normally freakin' hee-larious, hence the phrase "[censored]
and giggles". But less so the night before a marathon and the morning
of. I had known damn well, "don't try anything new" and yada yada.
Damn that taper madness!

Dream Notice from the Fox

In retrospect the fox dream would have been well-taken as a warning:
http://www.linsdomain.com/totems/pages/fox.htm - "A fox totem also
teaches good eating habits; the fox eats small amounts frequently which
medicine is now telling us is better for our health. But fox people
already knew this."
http://www.starfriends.com/NSFox.htm talks of the need for "patience,
vigilance, discernment and caution" to avoid traps.

Drained of Necessary Forces

As the astute reader may have noticed, I'd been out-of-my-mind
hyperactive, bursting with energy for days. All of it positive, no
real worries or fears. Not that I think I grossly underestimated the
distance or course either; just felt very positive about my training
and my fitness, ready to get it on. But starting around dinnertime -
couple hours after throwing back various isotopes of who knows what at
the expo - that energy started to drain away. About the same time my
toilet visits increased in frequency.

Dreary Nervous Flatness

That evening and morning I had just about convinced myself that I
wasn't _flat_ per se, I was _calm_, and that my body was wiser than my
mind and knew it was time to relax and to conserve all its energy for
the race. Sleeping 7.5 hours no problem and waking up feeling like
today was nothing too special - I had of late, for the first time in my
adult life, been keenly reconnected to the feeling of being a young
child bursting at the seams with Christmas Eve anticipation - was a
bit worrisome but I tried to spin it all postive, best I could.

OK, let's just get this, er, finished all right?

OK.

So I take half an Immodium at the house (my father in law's, on Staten
Island, less than a mile from the start). Then another half. Then
another half while relaxing just a little too well before the race.
That did holding everything in all day. Immodium *works*, dammit, in
an emphatic manner its predecessors Pepto Bismol and Kaopectate never
did.

All morning, my pee was pretty darn yellow whereas it's normally always
quite clear except maybe just after morning vitamins. I tried to
balance drinking enough water before and during the race, with the
limited rate at which it seemed to drain from my gut, and how that made
me feel a bit queasy. Had a couple Succeed caps, took one half hour
before the start, another around 10 miles. They clearly helped but at
some point I felt dry-mouth-thirsty (good, the salt's working) but had
difficulty getting motivated to dump more liquid into the ol' gut which
kept saying "enough, enough already".

Everything else went perfect. I was able to line up just a few rows
back of the 3:15 pace group in the chaotic start area, reached the
starting mats only :40 or so behind the gun, ran my first mile nice and
easy in 8:45 and slowly reeled in the 7:25/mi pace group until they
were in sight around 6 miles. I felt good and pretty effortless at the
pace, for a while, and remain convinced I'm basically in 3:15 shape on
this course.

Started to get much tougher around the halfway point. I think I may
have hit the wall - bonked - with half the race in front of me. Body
couldn't pull nutrition from the last few meals and snacks I had so, I
dunno, maybe it made some withdrawals from rather than deposits into my
glycogen account in the last 18 hours. Or maybe that's not exactly
what happened. I really just know enough physiology terms to make
wild, ignorant speculation.

What did happen was, somewhere around mile 13 +/- it was rather
suddenly taking a whole lot more effort to maintain 7:25-ish pace, and
legs gave a few twinges which felt like warnings of cramps to come.
Then going up the Queensboro Bridge I slowed down quite a bit for the
uphill, but even at this relative crawl my breathing was really
labored. And then something in my tummy was in a fairly sharp,
cramping pain.

Diaphragm? Bladder? Intestines? Eventually I settled on the latter
especially after a pee stop didn't help.

There's been something going around, every one in my family had diarrhea
and was throwing up last week, except me. I was spared the vomiting part.

Quoted message said:

I couldn't run through this
pain, and the locomotion it allowed me was pretty much 1 part ~12:00
pace slow jog to 3 parts slow walk. Kept that up as best I could for
most of the bridge's up, its down, and two and half miles of 1st Ave
before deciding definitively to bail at 112th St (mile 18.5 or so. I
think). Actually I decided a mile and a half earlier but figured I'd
wait until I got to my wife, whom I never saw because, it turned out,
she couldn't get to the east side of the street as we had agreed.

In the end I saw no reason to walk the last 8 miles, maybe with a bit
of slow jogging. I realize many people feel it's crucial to avoid a
DNF no matter what; but - at least for a race this distance or more -
I'm not one of 'em. I was racing this race to race (or time trial,
y'all know what I meant), not to prove I could move 26 miles in one
day, certainly not if the last 13 took 3 hours.

And maybe bailing when I did allows me to take advantage of this peak
fitness I think I've got in another race or two this next month before
it withers away. Maybe I'll duel #666 in the Stockade-athon after
all... would it be insane to think of giving Philly's 42k a try in two
weeks or Seattle's in three?

I'm waiting to get the story from 666, I would imagine he stayed in NY
as Tuesday is a holiday for him. Looks to me like he went for the PR but
couldn't keep the pace.

Or admit that I'm so old and slow it's

Quoted message said:

time to move on to ultras, and give the Knickerbocker 60k a shot in 3
weeks? I'll give it more thought when I'm more lucid, after a nap. I
just bet a few folks here will have advice too.

You'll feel different over time I had a similar experience back in 2002,
I predicted 3:27 and tried to hold that pace even though I was feeling
bad at 10 miles and cramping by 15. I walked 10 miles or so (4:17).
In retrospect I should have quit, but I did come back and ran PRs at the
15k (stockade-athon)and 10k distances in the next month. Well not a 15k
PR but a course PR.

I came back in February 2003 and ran 3:27, I probably could have done
better I was close to your 1/2 split at that race went out too fast but
I didn't totally crash.

I have a number of friends who have run Philly and done well, so it
might be worth considering, actually 666 had stomach problems there a
couple of years ago and finished in 4:09 so you can destroy his course
PB! and then boast about it. Kind of like my claim to fame was beating a
local runner who was an Olympic Marathon qualifier in his youth, of
course my friends point out that it was a last night run and he probably
started celebrating the New Year before the race.
Or, how about a nice west coast vacation:

http://www.runcim.org/

Quoted message said:

So, Pendejo remains a one-time super-4:00:00 marathon finisher. And my
pride certainly wenteth before my fall, and the race I had trained for
and fixated on so completely for so long went nothing like the script.

Now accepting "I told you so's" and other insults. Keep 'em colorful!

Pendejo, specializing in marathon disasters

Thanks everyone for the consolations, the well-wishes, the advice, the
taunts and jeers.

Hell, TBR even invented a new misspelling of my name for the occasion.
Mighty sweet of you, Billy Boy, you big ol' cream puff.

- - -

Anthony said:

entertaining

Thanks, I aim to please. Who at wreck.jogging wants to read "I ran 26
miles at between 7:24 and 7:26 pace then kicked for the last 385 yards
to finish in 3:14:50"?

Well, OK, one occasional poster can make sheer consistency a bit of a
thrill. But there's only one UJ.

Quoted message said:

Do yourself a favour and choose a nice flat course in a few weeks time.

Some folks suggest a couple weeks, others four to six. I'd very much
appreciate anyone's fleshing out of the reasons for choosing one
timeline or the other.

Seems to me I'd certainly fully recover within two, especially if
that's two more weeks of prerace low mileage. OTOH it's already been
four weeks since my last 19 miler, and three weeks of tapering mileage
containing a couple races with ~20k @ MP, and no other distance and a
few tempos as the only other quality. Should I expect to still have
(most of) the endurance I had built up in the prior months, six or
seven weeks after my last 19 miler?

Four to six weeks out would mean I could run some real mileage for a
couple weeks before re-tapering. Should I expect that to have much of
an impact?

Anecdotes and folklore welcomed as always!

Pendejo, a bit sorer - mostly quads - this morning than after a 20 mile
training run, but not *that* bad