Crapped & Burned: NYC

would it be insane to think of giving Philly's 42k a try in two
weeks or Seattle's in three?
_______

pendejo, you're crazier than me. ING Miami is in 84 days....recover
this week and gradual ramp into something with that in mind if you
must.

personally my advice for you would be to run a 1/2M very well, cut your
goal of 1:30 just to have a confidence booster under your belt.

i think you should construct a different strategy...one centered on
racing well and strong...not just training for a Marathon.

Really...if i were you I would not plan on running a single Marathon
again until NYC next year....until then make your goal to knock down
every one of the NYRR Grand Prix Half-Marathons at Sub 1:30....with a
final PR 1/2M at Grete's heading into NYC '06.

Quoted message said:

phil.....i'm still dizzy...but i heard Target won?....is that
right?....at 2:09. would be great to ask him that same question...no?

Yes, Tergat won in 2:09:30. I just now saw the finishing photo.
http://tinyurl.com/7f5lp
Now that is not a marathon finish you see every day! Now I'm upset that
I didn't tape this. Will it be aired again?

Quoted message said:

Mortals like me and Pendejo....we're on the course for 3, 4+ hours.
the last 3 years the temps and the course take their toll on mortals
big time.

I've been there a few times. Boston, with it's late start, can be a
killer. IIRC, when I ran Chicago in '97, it was very warm by the time I
finished.

Quoted message said:

In my first 2 NYCMs...I did not notice the gradual climbs.
But let me tell you...there are a lot of gradual climbs on that course.

I'm looking at the elevation chart - http://tinyurl.com/9nwer. Big hill
in the first mile, then miles 7, 15, and a nice little hill at 23. The
hills in the later stages probably seem much bigger than they really
are.

Quoted message said:

Also note...there are 2,000,000 fans screaming their heads off on the
course. Ya know what...they spur you on to run faster than you
normally would. There's a frenzy during most of your run....it's a
combination of the millions of fans...and the international
competition...it "feels" like the Olympics. You have running teams
from France, Italy, Japan, etc....and it all becomes a "Craze"......

Boston and Chicago are that way. But probably not as crazed as New
York.

Quoted message said:

It's so so so different than what you're used to.
It's fun, it's a blast....but it has a seducing effect....at least
that's my opinion.

Mine too. That's why I'm gravitating to lower-key events. A 50K with
less than 100 registered is enough for me.

--
Phil M.

anders said:

In a few short hours Charlie Pendejo has metamorphosed into Homer
Simpson:-(

Yeah - good image. I thought he was a pretty good carbo-loading role
model!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

would it be insane to think of giving Philly's 42k a try in two
weeks or Seattle's in three?

You've essentially just done the kind of long MP run which many coaches
consider indispensable before a key marathon race. However, IMHO even
Seattle comes a little too soon, I'd like to see five weeks between the
"test race" and the "proper try".

Thanks, as always, for your advice, anders. Could you elaborate a bit
on your timing thoughts - I'd like to be certain I understand your
reasoning here.

FWIW I had run the Staten Island half marathon at MP three weeks ago,
and at least felt like three weeks was more than enough to be fully
recovered.

Quoted message said:

(And it is expressly because we cannot help writing the emotional
reward after a succesful race into our script that the letdown after a
poor or mildly disastrous marathon is so huge that what we actually
feel then somehow seems insufficient, as if were proof that we simply
hadn't "wanted to succeed" strongly enough...)

Honestly, despite my posturing (largely for infotainment purposes), I
don't think I was counting too many chickens before they hatched. And
despite my enormous excitement to run this race, I don't feel an
equally immense letdown. I feel more like I've been riding a wave of
powerful positivity these last several weeks, and that wave has
deposited me surprisingly gently onto the beach (not the really deluxe
beach for which I'd aimed, but still) rather than hurling me off the
board and into the rocks.

- - -

Parker suggested:

Quoted message said:

Or, how about a nice west coast vacation:

http://www.runcim.org/

Sure, why not throw that into the mix too. Sacamento is Jet Blue-able
from NYC, a plus. The Big Apple to The Big Tomato, nonstop. :-)

Tucson is the same day, and I love that town - that whole part of the
country - but I fear I'm not trained for a relentless downhill course.

Pendejo, who after racing in Finland but not meeting anders, then
running all kinds of NY races yet never seeing Donovan, is now
pondering whether to miss The Vicar at Philly, or Phil in Abalama, or
Parker in Schenectady, or ...

Phil M. said:

Now that is not a marathon finish you see every day! Now I'm upset that
I didn't tape this. Will it be aired again?

Phil, http://www.ingnycmarathon.org/home/index.php sez:

Watch Exclusive WNBC Race Rebroadcasts
After the sales, rejoin us here on Monday, November 7,
for an exclusive rebroadcast of the ING New York City
Marathon 2005. At 12:00 noon, we will stream the one
hour national highlight show. At 4:00 p.m., we will
rebroadcast the entire marathon commercial free! Don't
miss these one time only video streams courtesy of
WNBC.

I caught the last half mile or so on the national highlight wrapup -
you don't want to miss it!

Quoted message said:

pendejo, you're crazier than me. ING Miami is in 84 days....recover
this week and gradual ramp into something with that in mind if you
must.

Doesn't work like that. Return to form is much faster if you DNF, because you
bail before you beat up your muscles too much. I had precisely this experience
with my teammates after the NY marathon. You could tell who DNF'd, they were
the guys who ran fast times for the Joe K. Nearly everyone who ran a good
marathon was a bit slow at the Joe K.

Quoted message said:

personally my advice for you would be to run a 1/2M very well, cut your

Personally, I don't think you're the best person to offer advice about marathon
preparation at the moment.

Quoted message said:

Really...if i were you I would

.... gut it out, barely breaking 4 hours.

Which is fine, in fact it's really quite commendable. But it's not for
everyone. By bailing early, Charlie has given himself a realistic shot at
another race.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Charlie Pendejo said:

Four to six weeks out would mean I could run some real mileage for a
couple weeks before re-tapering. Should I expect that to have much of
an impact?

Go for it. Wouldn't worry too much about the specifics. Just pick a race that
looks good.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

lance said:

i think you should construct a different strategy...one centered on
racing well and strong...not just training for a Marathon.

That's close to my 2006 plan. I intend to structure next year with a
bit more formal periodization, including more faster bits which
hopefully will help considerably at races of all distances.

So yeah, I agree, and appreciate your advice.

Quoted message said:

pendejo, you're crazier than me. ING Miami is in 84 days....recover
this week and gradual ramp into something with that in mind if you
must.

Here's where we part ways. I am thinking of my
running/training/fitness in seasonal terms, and feel that with arc of
my training, taper etc. I really am at a peak now which can't last.
I'd like to strike while the iron's at least pretty warm. Later I
anticipate taking a few weeks' downtime with low or no mileage between
"seasons" to give all my systems a chance to recharge.

I'm not so sure I _could_ be maximally prepared in 12 weeks. Can't
hold a peak that long, so I've got nowhere to go but down and then back
up. 12 weeks seems either way too far out, or too soon, to me.

And what's the weather likely to be? If at all warm, I think the only
way we're gonna have any heat acclimation here in NYC is to do plenty
of indoor treadmill running. Yuck.

Doug Freese said:

No insults merely stop reading those bloody prediction charts. So
rather than trying a slower pace, more likely finishing and then
saying I can make changes X & Y next year to take more time off
the clock, you are exactly where you were last year.

Thanks, but I really don't see it this way.

I'm not giving the bloody prediction charts so much weight that I
consider myself a x:xx marathoner because they, coupled with my 10k
time, say so - or close to it.

I did, however, train all year with a goal of running this race well -
meaning to finish it feeling like I gave my all, ran a fairly even
pace/effort, and did about as well as I could have - rather than to
establish that I can in fact cover the distance, to establish a minimal
42km benchmark. Just not so interested in that.

Maybe after a few years more of running maturation I'll see it more
like you (and, I think, Ozzie) do. But for now, I don't much buy what
you're telling me.

If I'm running the distance, I've got to run it at *some* pace. And
I'm telling you, 3:10 pace felt relatively easy and left me with a
whole lot in the tank three weeks ago, for an untapered half marathon
at "MP". 3:15 pace, tapered, felt almost ridiculously easy (as I
understand it should, early in a marathon) in the early going before
digestive problems did me in yesterday. Maybe after another two or
three marathon learning experiences I'll eat these words, but it truly
seems to me that *you* are the one overly obsessed with the prediction
charts. I have a lot less experience, but access to way more data
about how a given pace @ a given distance feels to me, and how that is
varying over time, etc. You seem to be the one doubling my HM time and
adding :xx per the formula to arrive at my "true pace".

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

In the end I saw no reason to walk the last 8 miles, maybe with a bit
of slow jogging. I realize many people feel it's crucial to avoid a
DNF no matter what; but - at least for a race this distance or more -
I'm not one of 'em. I was racing this race to race (or time trial,
y'all know what I meant), not to prove I could move 26 miles in one
day, certainly not if the last 13 took 3 hours.

And maybe bailing when I did allows me to take advantage of this peak
fitness I think I've got in another race or two this next month before
it withers away. Maybe I'll duel #666 in the Stockade-athon after
all... would it be insane to think of giving Philly's 42k a try in two
weeks or Seattle's in three?

Charlie: Good effort, and good decision to bail out.

An experienced marathoner (she won OKC a few years back) told me that
if you stop by mile 18 you'll be ready to go again in a month. FWIW.

Good luck!
--
Brian P. Baresch
Fort Worth, Texas, USA
Professional editing and proofreading

If you're going through hell, keep going. --Winston Churchill

Charlie Pendejo said:

Doug Freese said:

No insults merely stop reading those bloody prediction charts. So
rather than trying a slower pace, more likely finishing and then
saying I can make changes X & Y next year to take more time off
the clock, you are exactly where you were last year.

If I'm running the distance, I've got to run it at *some* pace.

Yes, this is the exact problem, for rookie and near-rookie marathoners
like CP, myself, and many other r.r folks. You do have to pick a goal
*somehow*. Meaning you have to pick a formula of some sort. I don't
see what's so bad about the "2 * HM + xx min" formula -- you just need
to pick "xx" correctly, which is where other runners's experiences are
invaluable.

My own take: 2 * HM + 15 minutes works pretty well for non-veterans
like us. Very easy at the start; very very hard at the end.

Quoted message said:

And I'm telling you, 3:10 pace felt relatively easy and left me with a
whole lot in the tank three weeks ago, for an untapered half marathon
at "MP". 3:15 pace, tapered, felt almost ridiculously easy (as I
understand it should, early in a marathon) in the early going before
digestive problems did me in yesterday.

I think you very likely would have cracked before the finish, if you'd
kept up that pace. Especially on a warm day. 2 * HM + 11 min is not
easy, and is not achieved very often.

On the topic of a "second chance" race to put that mileage base to
work, I'd say you MUST go for it! Seems like you've got 2 choices:
- treat NYC as final long-ish run, race in ~2 weeks
- run a true long run in 2 weeks, race in ~5 weeks

I'd personally lean toward option B, not from personal experience, but
mainly because I'd be worried about waiting 5 weeks between the final
20+ long run and raceday. I had a similar choice after Baltimore, and
went with option B (except that the time gap was 8 weeks for me). The
extra weeks have been productive, and I'm running stronger now than I
was before the first race.

On 7 Nov 2005 07:33:16 -0800, "Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]>

Quoted message said:

Hell, TBR even invented a new misspelling of my name for the occasion.
Mighty sweet of you, Billy Boy, you big ol' cream puff.

No, it's defeniately Bendaho

Charlie Pendejo said:

Doug Freese said:

No insults merely stop reading those bloody prediction charts. So
rather than trying a slower pace, more likely finishing and then
saying I can make changes X & Y next year to take more time off
the clock, you are exactly where you were last year.

Thanks, but I really don't see it this way.

I'm not giving the bloody prediction charts so much weight that I
consider myself a x:xx marathoner because they, coupled with my 10k
time, say so - or close to it.

But you sort of are. I mean, you are base your goal time on a projection that
assumes that you are quite exceptional in your ability over the marathon
distance.

Quoted message said:

I did, however, train all year with a goal of running this race well -
meaning to finish it feeling like I gave my all, ran a fairly even
pace/effort, and did about as well as I could have - rather than to
establish that I can in fact cover the distance, to establish a minimal
42km benchmark. Just not so interested in that.

It doesn't work like that. Paul Tergat didn't run a perfect race on his first
shot. It took him several times to get it right. Gebrselassie also has had a
hard time getting everything to come together.

Quoted message said:

Maybe after a few years more of running maturation I'll see it more
like you (and, I think, Ozzie) do. But for now, I don't much buy what
you're telling me.

FWIW, I used to think the same way as you until some time after I reflected on
my first marathon. Now I agree with Doug.

Quoted message said:

If I'm running the distance, I've got to run it at *some* pace. And

Yes, indeed. And that pace probably should be commensurate with your level of
ability and experience.

Quoted message said:

I'm telling you, 3:10 pace felt relatively easy and left me with a
whole lot in the tank three weeks ago, for an untapered half marathon
at "MP".

Doesn't mean a thing. I felt very good at mile 18 on my debut effort.

After two marathons, have you not learned that the process of fatigue is
non-linear ? Feeling great at the half way mark does not mean you will feel
great at mile 20.

Quoted message said:

3:15 pace, tapered, felt almost ridiculously easy (as I
understand it should, early in a marathon) in the early going before
digestive problems did me in yesterday. Maybe after another two or
three marathon learning experiences I'll eat these words, but it truly
seems to me that *you* are the one overly obsessed with the prediction
charts. I have a lot less experience, but access to way more data
about how a given pace @ a given distance feels to me, and how that is
varying over time, etc.

You still don't get it.

How a certain pace feels after 13 miles has very little to do with how it feels
after 20 or 23 miles.

Quoted message said:

You seem to be the one doubling my HM time and
adding :xx per the formula

Per what formula ? What number is "xx" ? The point is that "xx" is some unknown
that is determined by a whole pile of variables, including training, experience,
course difficulty, weather, etc. This is not about rigidly applying any
particular formula, it's about selecting a starting pace that makes sense based
on the afore-mentioned variables.

Quoted message said:

to arrive at my "true pace".

No, he is making realistic estimates of your finishing time, based on what he's
seen from runners with comparable ability, training, and experience.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

Hi Charlie-

Sorry to hear about the "crapp and burn". Now you *really* know
about doing nothing unusual right before a marathon! Yeah, if I
were you I'd use all that good training and make a new target,
with good guts you should be able to do the next one fine! Good
luck!!

Teresa in AZ

BTW, great report!

Charlie Pendejo said:

<I haven't read any of the ng since Saturday afternoon, but saw lance's
title and figured I'd steal it for my post. Congrats to lance for, er,
gutting it out.>

- - -

Executive summary: http://tinypic.com/fdf33l.jpg

- - -

Deena Not Found

Beginning of the end was the NYCM expo, which is mandatory - you swap
the card they've mailed you for your bib there. Couldn't go Thursday:
work emergency kept me from leaving. Friday I picked up my number, but
taper madness caused me to misread the schedule and miss meeting Deena.

Dumbass Nutritional Faux_pas

Taper madness also made me forget to sign up for the 3:15 pace group on
Friday. So with some trepidation ("but everyone says I'm supposed to
stay off my feet the day before... and I'm not sure if I really get any
benefit from signing up" [nope]) I returned to the expo Saturday. On
an empty stomach and not as well hydrated as I ought to be. Oh how
convenient, they've got free samples of all kinds of Power-this and
Gu-that, all of it straight from the chemistry lab.

Diarrhea's Not Funny

Well sure it's normally freakin' hee-larious, hence the phrase "[censored]
and giggles". But less so the night before a marathon and the morning
of. I had known damn well, "don't try anything new" and yada yada.
Damn that taper madness!

Dream Notice from the Fox

In retrospect the fox dream would have been well-taken as a warning:
http://www.linsdomain.com/totems/pages/fox.htm - "A fox totem also
teaches good eating habits; the fox eats small amounts frequently which
medicine is now telling us is better for our health. But fox people
already knew this."
http://www.starfriends.com/NSFox.htm talks of the need for "patience,
vigilance, discernment and caution" to avoid traps.

Drained of Necessary Forces

As the astute reader may have noticed, I'd been out-of-my-mind
hyperactive, bursting with energy for days. All of it positive, no
real worries or fears. Not that I think I grossly underestimated the
distance or course either; just felt very positive about my training
and my fitness, ready to get it on. But starting around dinnertime -
couple hours after throwing back various isotopes of who knows what at
the expo - that energy started to drain away. About the same time my
toilet visits increased in frequency.

Dreary Nervous Flatness

That evening and morning I had just about convinced myself that I
wasn't _flat_ per se, I was _calm_, and that my body was wiser than my
mind and knew it was time to relax and to conserve all its energy for
the race. Sleeping 7.5 hours no problem and waking up feeling like
today was nothing too special - I had of late, for the first time in my
adult life, been keenly reconnected to the feeling of being a young
child bursting at the seams with Christmas Eve anticipation - was a
bit worrisome but I tried to spin it all postive, best I could.

OK, let's just get this, er, finished all right?

OK.

So I take half an Immodium at the house (my father in law's, on Staten
Island, less than a mile from the start). Then another half. Then
another half while relaxing just a little too well before the race.
That did holding everything in all day. Immodium *works*, dammit, in
an emphatic manner its predecessors Pepto Bismol and Kaopectate never
did.

All morning, my pee was pretty darn yellow whereas it's normally always
quite clear except maybe just after morning vitamins. I tried to
balance drinking enough water before and during the race, with the
limited rate at which it seemed to drain from my gut, and how that made
me feel a bit queasy. Had a couple Succeed caps, took one half hour
before the start, another around 10 miles. They clearly helped but at
some point I felt dry-mouth-thirsty (good, the salt's working) but had
difficulty getting motivated to dump more liquid into the ol' gut which
kept saying "enough, enough already".

Everything else went perfect. I was able to line up just a few rows
back of the 3:15 pace group in the chaotic start area, reached the
starting mats only :40 or so behind the gun, ran my first mile nice and
easy in 8:45 and slowly reeled in the 7:25/mi pace group until they
were in sight around 6 miles. I felt good and pretty effortless at the
pace, for a while, and remain convinced I'm basically in 3:15 shape on
this course.

Started to get much tougher around the halfway point. I think I may
have hit the wall - bonked - with half the race in front of me. Body
couldn't pull nutrition from the last few meals and snacks I had so, I
dunno, maybe it made some withdrawals from rather than deposits into my
glycogen account in the last 18 hours. Or maybe that's not exactly
what happened. I really just know enough physiology terms to make
wild, ignorant speculation.

What did happen was, somewhere around mile 13 +/- it was rather
suddenly taking a whole lot more effort to maintain 7:25-ish pace, and
legs gave a few twinges which felt like warnings of cramps to come.
Then going up the Queensboro Bridge I slowed down quite a bit for the
uphill, but even at this relative crawl my breathing was really
labored. And then something in my tummy was in a fairly sharp,
cramping pain.

Diaphragm? Bladder? Intestines? Eventually I settled on the latter
especially after a pee stop didn't help. I couldn't run through this
pain, and the locomotion it allowed me was pretty much 1 part ~12:00
pace slow jog to 3 parts slow walk. Kept that up as best I could for
most of the bridge's up, its down, and two and half miles of 1st Ave
before deciding definitively to bail at 112th St (mile 18.5 or so. I
think). Actually I decided a mile and a half earlier but figured I'd
wait until I got to my wife, whom I never saw because, it turned out,
she couldn't get to the east side of the street as we had agreed.

In the end I saw no reason to walk the last 8 miles, maybe with a bit
of slow jogging. I realize many people feel it's crucial to avoid a
DNF no matter what; but - at least for a race this distance or more -
I'm not one of 'em. I was racing this race to race (or time trial,
y'all know what I meant), not to prove I could move 26 miles in one
day, certainly not if the last 13 took 3 hours.

And maybe bailing when I did allows me to take advantage of this peak
fitness I think I've got in another race or two this next month before
it withers away. Maybe I'll duel #666 in the Stockade-athon after
all... would it be insane to think of giving Philly's 42k a try in two
weeks or Seattle's in three? Or admit that I'm so old and slow it's
time to move on to ultras, and give the Knickerbocker 60k a shot in 3
weeks? I'll give it more thought when I'm more lucid, after a nap. I
just bet a few folks here will have advice too.

So, Pendejo remains a one-time super-4:00:00 marathon finisher. And my
pride certainly wenteth before my fall, and the race I had trained for
and fixated on so completely for so long went nothing like the script.

Now accepting "I told you so's" and other insults. Keep 'em colorful!

Pendejo, specializing in marathon disasters

Quoted message said:

Personally, I don't think you're the best person to offer advice about marathon preparation at the moment.

____

Well I never said I was Donovan. I appreciate you seeing me yesterday
and cheering me on, yes we're friends, but look at yourself Donovan.
Here, once again, you are for whatever reason electing to marginalize
me. Why is that? What is it about you that motivates you to
marginalize me in some form or fashion? to go out of your way and
discredit me having a voice is.....remarkable.

Now on topic, sure, i make mistakes....but think about it...I'm a lot
closer to Pendejo's level of runner than you are Donovan and I know a
lot more of what it's like for runners like me and Pendejo to challenge
26.2 than more advanced runners.

Now on a greater scale methinks Pendejo is having a natural knee jerk
reaction and wanting another crack at it ASAP to the point of where
he's considering Philly in 13 days or fly 3000 miles to Seattle for
crissakes.. Why? Is he really trying to BQ and not openly disclosing
that goal?

It's just not prudent or practical...or necessary....especially
connected with the consideration that he did not hit his 1/2M goal(s)
this Summer, he did not get in his marathon goal......I'm stubborn be
even I know how to take a look around and say perhaps I need to
re-establish my whole foundation in this running endeavor. Just my
opinion but I see no sense in rushing off to simply clock a marathon in
light of a series of less than aimed for outcomes. I know he claims
"striking while the iron is hot"...but just because he says it's
hot....does not mean it is. What's missing from Pendejo's Marathon
ascent are confidence boosting notches in his belt. I think he wants
to run a Marathon well, not just complete one. He may even dream of
BQ'ing, I don't know....don't we all? (whether we aim to run Boston or
not)

and Donovan...i did not gut it out, i walked the last 5 miles of the
race to get a kid a medal. Noakes called it right on what would happen
to me if i ran. my choice would have been to DNF.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Personally, I don't think you're the best person to offer advice about marathon preparation at the moment.

____

Well I never said I was Donovan. I appreciate you seeing me yesterday
and cheering me on, yes we're friends, but look at yourself Donovan.
Here, once again, you are for whatever reason electing to marginalize
me. Why is that?

It's not about "marginalizing" you. It's about suggesting you take a really hard
look at your own preparation, instead of telling everyone else what they should
do. You blow a lot of smoke on r.r which is why one almost needs to stand in
line to poke you in the ribs.

[snip]

Quoted message said:

Now on a greater scale methinks Pendejo is having a natural knee jerk
reaction and wanting another crack at it ASAP to the point of where
he's considering Philly in 13 days or fly 3000 miles to Seattle for
crissakes..

Knee-jerk or not, it's not a bad idea.

Quoted message said:

Why? Is he really trying to BQ and not openly disclosing
that goal?

Good question. I suspect he'll come up short if he attempts that.

Quoted message said:

It's just not prudent or practical...or necessary....especially
connected with the consideration that he did not hit his 1/2M goal(s)
this Summer, he did not get in his marathon goal......I'm stubborn be
even I know how to take a look around and say perhaps I need to
re-establish my whole foundation in this running endeavor. Just my

He does have the training under his belt. So as long as he's prepared to
re-evaluate his goals so that they are commensurate with the HM times he's
actually running, as opposed to the HM times he is still dreaming of, there's
not really a problem.

I agree that he'd be setting himself up for a fall if he attempted to run a
3:10 off his current performances. But I have the feeling that he's not going
to come back down to earth until he bites the dust at least once, so he might
as well do it now.

Cheers,
--
Donovan Rebbechi
http://pegasus.rutgers.edu/~elflord/

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I did, however, train all year with a goal of running this race well -
meaning to finish it feeling like I gave my all, ran a fairly even
pace/effort, and did about as well as I could have -

This is what everone that races any distance wants to do, be it a 50
meters or 100 miles.

Quoted message said:

rather than to
establish that I can in fact cover the distance, to establish a
minimal
42km benchmark. Just not so interested in that.

I understand your desires but you still have only one 4+ hour
experience at the distance.

Quoted message said:

If I'm running the distance, I've got to run it at *some* pace. And
I'm telling you, 3:10 pace felt relatively easy and left me with a
whole lot in the tank three weeks ago, for an untapered half marathon
at "MP".

So tell me how a 1/2 marathon at any pace relates to holding any pace
for a whole marathon? While I like to pick on prediction tables you
must have some metric in your head that suggests because you ran X 1/2
you can run a Y full.

Quoted message said:

3:15 pace, tapered, felt almost ridiculously easy (as I
understand it should, early in a marathon) in the early going before
digestive problems did me in yesterday.

And if 3:20 or 3:25 is really where you should be at you are still too
fast. If you went out at 3:20 pace for 18 or 20 and still felt good you
can back into smarter time albeit not 3:10. It's a big leap to go from
a 4 hours to 3:15 in one big gulp with zero experience. Convince me that
your digestive problems were not a byproduct of your pace.

Quoted message said:

three marathon learning experiences I'll eat these words, but it truly
seems to me that *you* are the one overly obsessed with the prediction
charts.

My obession is with your anticipated aggressive pace and where you are
pulling the time from be it a table or crystal ball.

Quoted message said:

I have a lot less experience, but access to way more data
about how a given pace @ a given distance feels to me, and how that is
varying over time, etc. You seem to be the one doubling my HM time
and
adding :xx per the formula to arrive at my "true pace".

Aren't you the one that is saying how easy your 1/2 was and therefore
can run 3:1N? I'm taking your known 1/2 time AND your inexperience at
the marathon distance and suggesting you run a smarter/slower first half
and run slower on the finsh clock.

You're hell-bent on maximizing your race with at best a 1/2 marathon
estimate. It's a starting point but a 1/2 in distance not a 1/2 in
effort but a lot less.

In your behalf, maybe it was too warm or your intestinal distress was
your demise was unrelated to pace. In either case you still don't know.

Let's run the clock ahead and you run another and suppose you don't do
well. Will it be because of lack of recovery or still a pace/training
problem? OTOH I understand you currently have a marathon edge and it
seems reasonable to give it another go. I'm not going to guess some
time interval and what to do between now and the next race, to much
crystal ball.

If you do fly to some race, allow for jet lag. It's amazing how
exhausting it is doing nothing in a plane.

-DF

Quoted message said:

Now on topic, sure, i make mistakes....but think about it...I'm a lot
closer to Pendejo's level of runner than you are Donovan and I know a
lot more of what it's like for runners like me and Pendejo to challenge
26.2 than more advanced runners.

I've been following this whole NYCM with a great deal of amusement.
FWIW, I don't "admire" either of your efforts. You both set unrealistic
goals and failed to meet them. Rather, I admire those that set realistic
goals and meet or exceed them. While it's been quite obvious that you
think you know what you're talking about, your inane pontifications have
shown otherwise. Yet the above statement that one failed, inexperienced
runner, is better able to give advice to another inexperienced runner,
reaches new depths of stupidity, even for you. Both you and Charlie
should both sit back, take a deep breath and instead of offering advice,
try to learn from those with the experience you so readily ridicule as
being old and slow. And Lance, this is nothing personal, I'm just
telling it like it is (like you claim to do).

--
- The Trailrunner

Anti-Spam Alert: If you wish to reply, cut the *BS*

Trails of the Diablo Valley
*Running - Hiking - Nature*
http://www.geocities.com/yosemite/trails/6016/

Doug Freese said:

While I like to pick on prediction tables you must have some metric in
your head that suggests because you ran X 1/2 you can run a Y full.

And you must as well, else what'd cause you to predict I couldn't, that
I'd be 5 or 10 or 15 minutes slower? What are you basing that on?
Standard 5-15 minute adjustment to the estimated finish of anyone's
sophomore effort? Hey, on second thought that might be as good a
predictor as anything - seems like exactly the sort of trick you wily
veterans have up your sleeves!

Quoted message said:

Convince me that your digestive problems were not a byproduct
of your pace.

That's just silly, or you've skimmed too fast or under the influence.

Unless you believe a pace :10 or :20 per mile too fast will not just
give a runner the runs, it'll influence the past so the big D strikes
16 hours before the start!

That, and I've run 6 half marathons at similar or up to :25/mi faster -
in 2006 alone without protest from the ol' gut. Do you figure that,
because _these_ 13 miles led to only the halfway mat and not the finish
line, that makes it tougher on the tummy?

Quoted message said:

So tell me how a 1/2 marathon at any pace relates to holding any pace
for a whole marathon?

OK, so you're suggesting the (double HM + :xx) is worthless because a
HM ain't a marathon. So surely my 4:03 marathon of 2004 is a better
predictor than my 2 Oct 1:32 half. So why don't you advice me to aim
for 4:00 or 3:55?

I will grant you this: I wouldn't want to use an untapered 1/2 marathon
run at submaximal effort - intended marathon pace - on its own and
claim fine-grained accuracy as a predictor.

But I'd certainly call it a data point. I know what pace I ran - 7:15
miles (last 5 miles @ 7:02 avg) - and I know how they felt.

It might be hard or impossible to quantify exactly how much weight to
give that data point. But I'm not going to give it zero, as you and
Donovan seem to insist on.

For instance, if I had just barely been able to hold 13 x 7:15 miles,
I'd consider it unwise to attempt 26 of 'em three weeks later even with
a taper, and would pad my pace accordingly. Or if I'd found my heart
rate just barely nudged up to 70% by the 13th 7:15 mile, I'd set my
sights higher.

As it was, I found 7:15 (and 5 x 7:02, and the 6:40 final mile)
surprisingly easy. I add this to a number of other observations

- about the overall shape of my season from some steps back (1)
- and about specific workouts and paces from my last several weeks
- and what the bathroom scale has to say (at least there's some nice
simple objective numbers, none of this messy subjectivity getting in
the way and humanizing the picture... that ought to please you and
Donovan)

and I believe I'm currently a bit faster overall than my HM PR
indicates, and furthermore than this merits consideration in trying to
chose a reasonable MP for my current fitness.

I guess if I were offering someone else advice rather than determining
my own target, I'd tend to be more risk-averse and downplay anything
that smacked of subjectivity and potential wishful thinking - unless of
course that fuzzier data argued for slowing down not speeding up, in
which case it surely must be heeded. I wouldn't want someone else's
marathon disaster on my conscience either.

Quoted message said:

If you do fly to some race, allow for jet lag. It's amazing how
exhausting it is doing nothing in a plane.

Thanks, that's a good point. Do you have rules of thumb like arrive 2
or 3 days earlier and/or lower expectations a bit?

Pendejo, wordier than a speeding bullet

(1) for example:
- surprisingly (to me) little improvement in race times despite notably
increased mileage and injury avoidance
- greater consistency in training and diet after returning home from
2.5 weeks in Russia and Finland in mid-late Sep
- similar time frame: started running tempos consistently after mostly
just junk
- similar time frame: my best quality long runs, 22.75 with last
several miles @ MP, and 21 the next weekend
- similar time frame: more quality in the form of races, 16k Helsinki,
21k NYC
- workouts (tempos, daily, recovery) finally getting faster and/or less
effort starting in early October after my 1:32 HM but before taper

which taken together, I interpret in part to mean that between
overreaching and just plain running slow most of the season, I hadn't
been turning my training into speed very well... but now I was starting
to turn a corner and that some real good training was kicking in, which
wasn't much reflected in my disappointing 2 Oct HM.

The Trailrunner said:

I've been following this whole NYCM with a great deal of amusement.

You're entitled to that, but...

Quoted message said:

you so readily ridicule as being old and slow

....please don't insist I include a smiley every time I say something
like that, nor a disclaimer about respecting someone's far vaster
experience in every last post. It just gets old, fast (as opposed to
"old and slow" I guess).

"The Trailrunner" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Now on topic, sure, i make mistakes....but think about it...I'm a lot
closer to Pendejo's level of runner than you are Donovan and I know a
lot more of what it's like for runners like me and Pendejo to challenge
26.2 than more advanced runners.

I've been following this whole NYCM with a great deal of amusement.
FWIW, I don't "admire" either of your efforts. You both set unrealistic
goals and failed to meet them.

No [censored] Trail. I couldn't have said it better myself.