Hating Armstrong

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think that irrational hatred of Lance Armstrong is necessarily anti-American sentiment,
though that does come into it to some extent. I believe that Serena Williams described it best
after her loss at the French Open final this year. In that game, she was consistently harassed by
the public, for example, her service faults would receive loud cheers, and she ended up crying at
the post game press conference. Anyway, she said that she definitely did not feel that the
situation had any relation to her American nationality, but rather to the fact that the public
hates a winner who dominates the competition.

that and the fact that the French are racist [censored].

Quoted message said:

She pointed out that the public started appreciating Martina Navratilova only after she retired
from mainstream competition. She went on to say that she accepted that this behavior, and
preferred being the one dominating the competition. I expect that Lance might have similar
comments about his detractors.

yeah, I kinda doubt that.

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think that irrational hatred of Lance Armstrong is necessarily anti-American sentiment,
though that does come into it to some extent. I believe that Serena Williams described it best
after her loss at the French Open final this year. In that game, she was consistently harassed
by the public, for example, her service faults would receive loud

cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and she ended up crying at the post game press conference. Anyway, she said that she definitely
did not feel that the situation had any

relation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to her American nationality, but rather to the fact that the public hates a winner who dominates
the competition.

that and the fact that the French are racist [censored].

Aren't they?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

She pointed out that the public started appreciating Martina Navratilova only after she retired
from mainstream competition. She went on to say that she accepted that this behavior, and
preferred being the one dominating the competition. I expect that Lance might have similar
comments about his detractors.

yeah, I kinda doubt that.

There are two kinds of people in this world I can't stand. People that are intolerant of other
people's cultures and the Dutch.

--Nigel Powers

[email hidden] (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

I don't think that irrational hatred of Lance Armstrong is necessarily anti-American sentiment,
though that does come into it to some extent. I believe that Serena Williams described it best
after her loss at the French Open final this year. In that game, she was consistently harassed by
the public, for example, her service faults would receive loud cheers, and she ended up crying at
the post game press conference. Anyway, she said that she definitely did not feel that the
situation had any relation to her American nationality, but rather to the fact that the public
hates a winner who dominates the competition. She pointed out that the public started appreciating
Martina Navratilova only after she retired from mainstream competition. She went on to say that
she accepted that this behavior, and preferred being the one dominating the competition. I expect
that Lance might have similar comments about his detractors.

-ilan

You got it. That's at least the reason I don't like Armstrong, he's been too superior. You loose
interest in a competition if you know how it will end up. That's the way it has been in the Tour the
three last years before this tour. If all the races had been as close as this year and Armstrong
still would have won the five in a row, the general opinion of him would have been a lot friendlier.
I don't think the hostilities against Armstrong have anything to do with the person, it's just the
disappointment of not getting the excitement of a close competition.

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think that irrational hatred of Lance Armstrong is necessarily anti-American sentiment,
though that does come into it to some extent. I believe that Serena Williams described it best
after her loss at the French Open final this year. In that game, she was consistently harassed
by the public, for example, her service faults would receive loud

cheers,

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

and she ended up crying at the post game press conference. Anyway, she said that she definitely
did not feel that the situation had any

relation

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

to her American nationality, but rather to the fact that the public hates a winner who dominates
the competition.

that and the fact that the French are racist [censored].

Ed-D, Ed-D ! That comment is silly (saying it mildly). Our most beloved tennis star is Yannick Noah.
Don't forget that just even with a Breton name, his tan is darker than most.

You just didn't have anything to say, and managed to do it economically. For that, good job !

How did you feel during the Indurain years?

Roger B

"Ingemar Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You got it. That's at least the reason I don't like Armstrong, he's been too superior. You loose
interest in a competition if you know how it will end up. That's the way it has been in the Tour
the three last years before this tour. If all the races had been as close as this year and
Armstrong still would have won the five in a row, the general opinion of him would have been a lot
friendlier. I don't think the hostilities against Armstrong have anything to do with the person,
it's just the disappointment of not getting the excitement of a close competition.

[email hidden] (Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You got it. That's at least the reason I don't like Armstrong, he's been too superior. You loose
interest in a competition if you know how it will end up. That's the way it has been in the Tour
the three last years before this tour. If all the races had been as close as this year and
Armstrong still would have won the five in a row, the general opinion of him would have been a lot
friendlier. I don't think the hostilities against Armstrong have anything to do with the person,
it's just the disappointment of not getting the excitement of a close competition.

Good point, I suppose that's why everyone hated Indurain.

-ilan

[email hidden] (Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

-ilan

You got it. That's at least the reason I don't like Armstrong, he's been too superior. You loose
interest in a competition if you know how it will end up. That's the way it has been in the Tour
the three last years before this tour. If all the races had been as close as this year and
Armstrong still would have won the five in a row, the general opinion of him would have been a lot
friendlier. I don't think the hostilities against Armstrong have anything to do with the person,
it's just the disappointment of not getting the excitement of a close competition.

During the tour I was rooting for Beloki, Vino & Ulrich. I was more interested in a race than a
coronation of Armstrong. In the end everybody got most of what they wanted. Ulrich, Vino and up to
stage 9 Beloki were making it a race. I was happy that Armstrong won a race rather than seeing him
have it wrapped up in the Alps.

Andy

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think that irrational hatred of Lance Armstrong is necessarily anti-American sentiment,
though that does come into it to some extent. I believe that Serena Williams described it best
after her loss at the French Open final this year. In that game, she was consistently harassed by
the public, for example, her service faults would receive loud cheers,

consistently? no, cheering of serving errors occurred during ~2 games of the 3rd set (albeit at a
critical point of the match). moreover, the 'loudies' were probably belgian supporters of henin (has
been reported as such in a few places) and rolland garos crowds have set precedent in booing
line-call nitpickers whether the call is right or not (hingis a few years ago, she cried too).

Quoted message said:

and she ended up crying at the post game press conference. Anyway, she said that she definitely
did not feel that the situation had any relation to her American nationality, but rather to the
fact that the public hates a winner who dominates the competition. She pointed out that the public
started appreciating Martina Navratilova only after she retired from mainstream competition. She
went on to say that she accepted that this behavior, and preferred being the one dominating the
competition. I expect that Lance might have similar comments about his detractors.

navratilova was not much liked because she was out of the closet. she also was the first extremely
fit woman player, i.e. seen as 'manly'. and because of her eventual domination of chris 'goody two
shoes' evert ( a crowd favorite).

race also plays a part in crowd reaction toward the williams sister (in the US too)

Bob said:

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think that irrational hatred of Lance Armstrong is necessarily anti-American sentiment,
though that does come into it to some extent. I believe that Serena Williams described it best
after her loss at the French Open final this year. In that game, she was consistently harassed by
the public, for example, her service faults would receive loud cheers,

consistently? no, cheering of serving errors occurred during ~2 games of the 3rd set (albeit at a
critical point of the match). moreover, the 'loudies' were probably belgian supporters of henin
(has been reported as such in a few places) and rolland garos crowds have set precedent in booing
line- call nitpickers whether the call is right or not (hingis a few years ago, she cried too).

Quoted message said:

and she ended up crying at the post game press conference. Anyway, she said that she definitely
did not feel that the situation had any relation to her American nationality, but rather to the
fact that the public hates a winner who dominates the competition. She pointed out that the
public started appreciating Martina Navratilova only after she retired from mainstream
competition. She went on to say that she accepted that this behavior, and preferred being the one
dominating the competition. I expect that Lance might have similar comments about his detractors.

navratilova was not much liked because she was out of the closet. she also was the first extremely
fit woman player, i.e. seen as 'manly'. and because of her eventual domination of chris 'goody two
shoes' evert ( a crowd favorite).

race also plays a part in crowd reaction toward the williams sister (in the US too)

And their psycho dad, and the fact that they've elevated the women's game to where it's almost the
men's game -- solely based on power with little or no finesse and where serving rules.

--
Bob M in CT Remove 'x.' to reply

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Ingemar Svensson) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

You got it. That's at least the reason I don't like Armstrong, he's been too superior. You loose
interest in a competition if you know how it will end up. That's the way it has been in the Tour
the three last years before this tour. If all the races had been as close as this year and
Armstrong still would have won the five in a row, the general opinion of him would have been a
lot friendlier. I don't think the hostilities against Armstrong have anything to do with the
person, it's just the disappointment of not getting the excitement of a close competition.

Good point, I suppose that's why everyone hated Indurain.

I didn't hate Indurain, but I thought the Tours that he won were very boring. I was glad when
he was done.

"Roger Bogda" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

How did you feel during the Indurain years?

Roger B

I wasn't into cycling back then, I was only 10-14 years old. But I guess I would have felt the same
way. But on the other hand Indurain was not as dominating as Lance in the mountains. I feel it's
better when the climbers have trouble time trialing and when the time trialers have trouble
climbing. That makes for better competitions. With Lance the other riders can't beat him in climbing
and not beat him in the TTs. At least not before this year. And not next year.

Quoted message said:

"Ingemar Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You got it. That's at least the reason I don't like Armstrong, he's been too superior. You loose
interest in a competition if you know how it will end up. That's the way it has been in the Tour
the three last years before this tour. If all the races had been as close as this year and
Armstrong still would have won the five in a row, the general opinion of him would have been a
lot friendlier. I don't think the hostilities against Armstrong have anything to do with the
person, it's just the disappointment of not getting the excitement of a close competition.

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... that and the fact that the French are
racist [censored].

Ed-D, Ed-D ! That comment is silly (saying it mildly). Our most beloved tennis star is Yannick
Noah. Don't forget that just even with a Breton name, his tan is darker than most.

You just didn't have anything to say, and managed to do it economically. For that, good job !

If the French are racist, what are Americans?

Didn't many of the great Black entertainers of the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's go to France so that
they could work in an atmosphere free from hate and bigotry?

Josephine Baker comes to mind.

Sports great:

Jack Johnson comes to mind.

Ask any Black WWII veteran what their experience was in France.

Most never wanted to return to the U.S. and many that made it through WWII alive, didn't.

France has always been seen as a land of opportunity for people of colour!

Dashii

Dashi Toshii said:

If the French are racist, what are Americans?

I assume he is joking. I would hope so. There are some examples of French racism but as you seem to
be aware, they are one of the most tolerant cultures in the world. Nowadays there seems to be some
tension with conservatives over the behavior of some Muslims, but I think they the French people are
still among the most tolerant in the world. Americans have shown the ability on occasion to be
tolerant, but the record of this country on the whole is sad. I probably expect too much.

"Ingemar Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Roger Bogda" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

How did you feel during the Indurain years?

Roger B

I wasn't into cycling back then, I was only 10-14 years old. But I guess I would have felt the
same way. But on the other hand Indurain was not as dominating as Lance in the mountains.

If you are almost certain someone is going to dominate, it is noce for them to pus on a show. The
way Indurain dominated was extremely boring. No showmanship. Only a few times did he really extend
himself in the mountains. There was a stage in 2994 that comes to mind where he was battling with
Luc Leblanc and lost for the stage. He was really flying though. Note that his most exciting moment
in my mind was not even a stage win. If you are going to watch someone win 5 on the trot, you have
to concede that Armstrong did seem to go for broke on just about every stage he was able to.

I feel it's better

Quoted message said:

when the climbers have trouble time trialing and when the time trialers have trouble climbing.
That makes for better competitions. With Lance the other riders can't beat him in climbing and not
beat him in the TTs. At least not before this year. And not next year.

Quoted message said:

"Ingemar Svensson" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[email hidden] (Ilan Vardi) wrote in message

news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

You got it. That's at least the reason I don't like Armstrong, he's been too superior. You
loose interest in a competition if you know how it will end up. That's the way it has been in
the Tour the three last years before this tour. If all the races had been as close as this
year and Armstrong still would have won the five in a row, the general opinion of him would
have been a lot friendlier. I don't think the hostilities against Armstrong have anything to
do with the person, it's just the disappointment of not getting the excitement of a close
competition.

"Dashi Toshii" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]... that and the fact that the French are
racist [censored].

Ed-D, Ed-D ! That comment is silly (saying it mildly). Our most beloved tennis star is Yannick
Noah. Don't forget that just even with a Breton name, his tan is darker than most.

You just didn't have anything to say, and managed to do it economically. For that, good job !

If the French are racist, what are Americans?

definitely racist, but on a different level.

Quoted message said:

Didn't many of the great Black entertainers of the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's go to France so that
they could work in an atmosphere free from hate and bigotry?

"FREE from hate and bigotry"? Are you not exaggerating a wee bit?

Quoted message said:

Josephine Baker comes to mind.

Sports great:

Jack Johnson comes to mind.

Ask any Black WWII veteran what their experience was in France.

Most never wanted to return to the U.S. and many that made it through WWII alive, didn't.

France has always been seen as a land of opportunity for people of colour!

Dashii

"Dashi Toshii" <[email hidden]> wrote in message news:<[email hidden]>...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

If the French are racist, what are Americans?

Didn't many of the great Black entertainers of the 1930's, 1940's and 1950's go to France so that
they could work in an atmosphere free from hate and bigotry?

Josephine Baker comes to mind.

Sports great:

Jack Johnson comes to mind.

Ask any Black WWII veteran what their experience was in France.

Most never wanted to return to the U.S. and many that made it through WWII alive, didn't.

France has always been seen as a land of opportunity for people of colour!

Absolutely true, as concerns cycling, there are nice pictures of Sugar Ray Robinson at the Tour de
France in the 50's, and it seems quite clear that he's thinking something along the lines: "I'm not
a negro here, just a hero."

More impressively, the biggest US race taboo doesn't seem to exist in France, that is, mixed
couples, and these appear on TV talk shows etc., without a single comment. I was impressed at the
power of this taboo in the US, e.g., 10 years ago in the TV show "Star Trek, the next generation"
alien played by black decides to date other alien (not a different race, but a different species!)
who is also played by black. The weird part is that the original star trek featured the first
interracial kiss on TV. Star Trek Deep Space 9 actually had an interracial couple subsequently...

However, the above comments show that in the US racism is synonymous with racism against blacks.
Perhaps the reason that this isn't evident in France is that the black population is quite small, so
hasn't reached critical mass. In fact, there is plenty of racism in France, but all directed against
"Arabs", that is, people of North African origin.

-ilan

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

More impressively, the biggest US race taboo doesn't seem to exist in France, that is, mixed
couples, and these appear on TV talk shows etc., without a single comment. I was impressed at the
power of this taboo in the US, e.g., 10 years ago in the TV show "Star Trek, the next generation"
alien played by black decides to date other alien (not a different race, but a different species!)
who is also played by black. The weird part is that the original star trek featured the first
interracial kiss on TV. Star Trek Deep Space 9 actually had an interracial couple subsequently...

So did "The Jeffersons" about 25 years ago.

geocities.comcast.htmOpen ↗ ROXIE ROKER As Helen Willis Most good shows have at
least one pair of really good friends. Lucy and Ethel. Jerry and George. And now, Louise and Helen.
These two did volunteer work at the Help Center in their spare time, and went shopping, the rest.
Well not all the time, but they did have fun together. Helen and Tom's marriage broke the TV barrier
in a completely new way - Helen was black, and Tom was white. "The Jeffersons" was one of the very
first shows to have an interracial couple. In real life, Roxie married to Sy Kravitz, (she was Lenny
Kravitz's mother) a white man.

"Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

I don't think that irrational hatred of Lance Armstrong is necessarily anti-American sentiment,
though that does come into it to some extent. I believe that Serena Williams described it best
after her loss at the French Open final this year.

People don't like the Williams sisters because they are classless boors. Period.

France is not racists against blacks per se (unless they come from the islands.) I know an African
American woman who has lived in Paris long enough that she speaks very good French. Sometimes she
puts on more of an American accent so she'll get treated better in stores if they don't think she's
from the DOM-TOM.

Racism against North African (arabs) is more open in France than racisism against African Americans
is in the US, Though at the same time, I'd say that French-North Africans are better integrated than
African Americans are in the US.

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Dashi Toshii" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Sandy" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ed-D" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message
"]news:[email hidden]...
> "Ilan Vardi" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
> "]news:[email hidden]... that and the fact that the French
> are racist [censored].
>

Ed-D, Ed-D ! That comment is silly (saying it mildly). Our most

beloved

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

tennis star is Yannick Noah. Don't forget that just even with a

Breton

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

name, his tan is darker than most.

You just didn't have anything to say, and managed to do it

economically.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

For that, good job !

If the French are racist, what are Americans?

definitely racist, but on a different level.

Quoted message said:

Didn't many of the great Black entertainers of the 1930's, 1940's and

1950's

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

go to France so that they could work in an atmosphere free from hate and bigotry?

"FREE from hate and bigotry"? Are you not exaggerating a wee bit?

Quoted message said:

Josephine Baker comes to mind.

Sports great:

Jack Johnson comes to mind.

Ask any Black WWII veteran what their experience was in France.

Most never wanted to return to the U.S. and many that made it through

WWII

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

alive, didn't.

France has always been seen as a land of opportunity for people of

colour!

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Dashii

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