Question for cyclists...

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand. Cyclists
are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action would
indicate otherwise.
I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I can't
see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

The meek shall inherit the earth.

Zoom

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand. Cyclists
are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action would
indicate otherwise.
I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I can't
see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

You evidently don't commute by car in Sydney at peak hour. If you are in a car, _you_ are by far the slowest thing on the road. Furthermore, I'd have thought that taking the most space, the most energy and the laziest way to move about was _easily_ a more selfish thing to do.

Get out your car, ride in traffic on a bicycle and you might gain some understanding. If you don't have what it takes, stay in your car and be patient, don't speed, stop at red lights, use your blinkers and your eyes when you drive.

Ritch

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

That's not cool. An experienced cyclist should not 'filter up'. If they're
doing it, there's one or two reasons. They are ignorant, don't know any
better and are not doing it to annoy the drivers. Hopefully an experienced
cyclist will spot this and educate them that in most cases it's better to
wait where you queued up - don't make drivers pass you twice.

The two times where it might be ok are when it's a difficult hill and you
need to maintain your momentum to get up it. Then, imo, it's ok to filter
forward. However it's also OK to let the traffic go ahead and you stay
stopped at the intersection then follow them through it. Depends on the
intersection.

The other time is if there is an extremely long line of cars. It's quite
natural for a cyclist to filter up at that time. Surely you can see this.
Try not to get annoyed though - it's not meant to upset the drivers.
Cyclists are just trying to get along and handle the roads and traffic the
best they can for the situation, and given their experience and training.

Oh, forgot. If there is a designated bike lane, then it's perfectly legal
for them to ride to the front. Maybe this is the case in the situation and
you just didn't realize there was a bike lane?

Quoted message said:

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand. Cyclists
are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action would
indicate otherwise.

Regardless of what you may think, cyclists in general are -not- trying to
upset, delay or [censored] drivers. They're just trying to handle the traffic
and the situation as best they can. Sometimes they cut corners, but it's
usually due to inexperience, not being in good enough shape, or due to the
difficult terrain.

Quoted message said:

I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I can't
see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

So when you have a cookie and you "share it" with your little brother,
because you're bigger and faster, you eat the whole cookie and call it
sharing? Hah. I don't think that's very good 'sharing'.

Pedestrians are even slower and smaller, yet you -must- yield to all
pedestrians, even if they're making a mistake, such as jay-walking. It's
not up to you to punish them by buzzing them, or laying on the horn or by
running them over.

Why would you think differently towards cyclists. The rule is to yield to
the slower traffic. On a multi-use path a cyclist has to yield to all
slower traffic (and horses!). On the street, drivers have to yield to the
slower smaller vehicle, such as farm equipment, slower construction
equipment, of course emergency vehicles, and yes, cyclists. If you think
about it, the delay is minimal. And that cyclist is one less driver in
front of you - and those 10 cars in front of you are -actually- the ones
tying up traffic and creating traffic jams - not ten guys on bikes.

Of course too many drivers think the solution is to threaten, or actually
run over a cyclist. Well, sorry, but even this is changing. A woman in
Australia actually got six years in prison for running over a motorcyclist.

HTH,

-Wheels.

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

ahahahahahahahaha
Tell that to the Trans Am driver in Newcastle.
10 lights, 10 times I dragged him off across the intersections.

HellenWheels said:

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

That's not cool. An experienced cyclist should not 'filter up'. If they're
doing it, there's one or two reasons. They are ignorant, don't know any
better and are not doing it to annoy the drivers. Hopefully an experienced
cyclist will spot this and educate them that in most cases it's better to
wait where you queued up - don't make drivers pass you twice.

The two times where it might be ok are when it's a difficult hill and you
need to maintain your momentum to get up it. Then, imo, it's ok to filter
forward. However it's also OK to let the traffic go ahead and you stay
stopped at the intersection then follow them through it. Depends on the
intersection.

The other time is if there is an extremely long line of cars. It's quite
natural for a cyclist to filter up at that time. Surely you can see this.
Try not to get annoyed though - it's not meant to upset the drivers.
Cyclists are just trying to get along and handle the roads and traffic the
best they can for the situation, and given their experience and training.

Oh, forgot. If there is a designated bike lane, then it's perfectly legal
for them to ride to the front. Maybe this is the case in the situation and
you just didn't realize there was a bike lane?

Quoted message said:

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand. Cyclists
are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action would
indicate otherwise.

Regardless of what you may think, cyclists in general are -not- trying to
upset, delay or [censored] drivers. They're just trying to handle the traffic
and the situation as best they can. Sometimes they cut corners, but it's
usually due to inexperience, not being in good enough shape, or due to the
difficult terrain.

Quoted message said:

I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I can't
see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

So when you have a cookie and you "share it" with your little brother,
because you're bigger and faster, you eat the whole cookie and call it
sharing? Hah. I don't think that's very good 'sharing'.

Pedestrians are even slower and smaller, yet you -must- yield to all
pedestrians, even if they're making a mistake, such as jay-walking. It's
not up to you to punish them by buzzing them, or laying on the horn or by
running them over.

Why would you think differently towards cyclists. The rule is to yield to
the slower traffic. On a multi-use path a cyclist has to yield to all
slower traffic (and horses!). On the street, drivers have to yield to the
slower smaller vehicle, such as farm equipment, slower construction
equipment, of course emergency vehicles, and yes, cyclists. If you think
about it, the delay is minimal. And that cyclist is one less driver in
front of you - and those 10 cars in front of you are -actually- the ones
tying up traffic and creating traffic jams - not ten guys on bikes.

Of course too many drivers think the solution is to threaten, or actually
run over a cyclist. Well, sorry, but even this is changing. A woman in
Australia actually got six years in prison for running over a motorcyclist.

HTH,

-Wheels.

Mind you I often have cars pass me two or three times.. before
eventually I leave them in my dust.. to beat em to work by ohh 20
minutes or so. THe things most car drivers dont get are that its
fastest substained speed that matters.. not em hitting 80 for 1.2 secs
just before slamming on the brakes just short of the back of the next
line of cars (and sometimes not 🙂

I am buggered if I am waiting for 3 changes of traffic light just to
even the average up

Once they are trapped by the traffic they dont outweigh us by 2000
kg or so but only by about 30 (figures adjusted for average tradey) and
thats all fat. In the main... and exceptions must exist.. some of these
guys would have been beaten to death long ago if they couldnt fight but
in the main the average car driver is far likelier to have a heart
attack than hurt you out of the car.

THey are only jealous, poor sods.. Cant stand to see anyone have fun in
the traffic. Since they have to be stuck.. hate everyone who isnt.

I doubt very much if I have held a car up for as much as 20 seconds in
30 years of riding bikes . Stopped em from getting to the next red
light as quick yeah for sure but actually made a difference to their
trip time probably never. Now when I drove post office trucks. Hell
me driving a car would hold themn up more. Mind you you need to be
unbalanced to want to drive a car.

Dave

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone
has to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand.
Cyclists are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action
would indicate otherwise.

Perfectly legal manoeuvre for cyclists on Australian roads. Cyclists may
overtake on the left or right side of stationary vehicles. And as for being
the slowest thing, in most inner city suburbs plenty of cyclists could
thoroughly trounce your Falcodore in any peak period door to door journey.

Quoted message said:

I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I
can't see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

You share the roads by following the roads rules and giving way to other
vehicles as required. Slower vehicles are not rquired to give way to the
faster. As a faster vehicle it is YOUR obligation to overtake safely, by
changing lanes (and completely out of the left lane, none of this
half-laning bull$&*t)

Cheers
Peter

HellenWheels said:

That's not cool. An experienced cyclist should not 'filter up'. If they're
doing it, there's one or two reasons. They are ignorant, don't know any
better and are not doing it to annoy the drivers. Hopefully an experienced
cyclist will spot this and educate them that in most cases it's better to
wait where you queued up - don't make drivers pass you twice.

Buh? Sorry, thats just utter [censored]. Cyclist are allowed to ride up the inside, its a legitimate move. If cars are so fast, how come I see the same drivers at every light!

Car drivers should just realise they're uptight, and that is their problem, not the cyclists.

till

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

What's with the rush of motorists to overtake and endanger cyclists only
to stop behind the cars at the next set of traffic lights, requiring said
cyclist to slow down and navigate the gaps and fumes between the cars
because they are by far the largest, most inefficient and polluting things
on the road?

Quoted message said:

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand. Cyclists
are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action would
indicate otherwise.

I can barely live with all the other [censored] we have to deal with from
motorists, but this is just illogical. Motorists are always upset at being
slowed down and inconvenienced, yet they are the ones getting in the way
of others (and themselves) and causing massive inconvenience and damage to
other travellers who have to navigate these roads rendered all but
unnavigable by the car.

Quoted message said:

I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I
can't see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

Since when is sharing about giving way to bigger/faster?
Sharing (the road) would be about all users being able to use it. The
presence and behavior of motorists severely diminishes and endangers the
experience of more vulnerable road users such as cyclists, pedestrians,
and motorcyclists.

Cyclists are particularly vulnerable and discriminated against, having no
other place to go (as pedestrians do), nor the instantaneous speed of
motorcyclists.

mkli.

maikkeli said:

Since when is sharing about giving way to bigger/faster? Sharing (the road) would be about all users being able to use it. The presence and behavior of motorists severely diminishes and endangers the experience of more vulnerable road users such as cyclists, pedestrians, and motorcyclists.

Cyclists are particularly vulnerable and discriminated against, having no other place to go (as pedestrians do), nor the instantaneous speed of motorcyclists.

mkli.

You've bought up a good point here. Invariably on the roads, it may seem any 'community notions' of the stronger taking care of the vulnerable are reversed. It's the law of the jungle, not just towards cyclists/moto/peds et al but any road users perceived as weaker etc etc etc. It seems to be the predominant attitude if you can get away with it, do it. Which isn't helping anybody.

till! said:

HellenWheels said:

That's not cool. An experienced cyclist should not 'filter up'. If
they're doing it, there's one or two reasons. They are ignorant,
don't know any better and are not doing it to annoy the drivers.
Hopefully an experienced cyclist will spot this and educate them
that in most cases it's better to wait where you queued up - don't
make drivers pass you twice.

Buh? Sorry, thats just utter [censored]. Cyclist are allowed to ride up the
inside, its a legitimate move. If cars are so fast, how come I see the
same drivers at every light!

Car drivers should just realise they're uptight, and that is their
problem, not the cyclists.

till

OK, but I believe many cyclists say it is better in most cases not to
filter up if possible. There are risks of peds running between cars,
dooring and right hooking. Plus, as you see, it can annoy the drivers. If
it's specifically allowed in your area, then yes it must be ok. Sorry.

-Wheels.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "Uncle Bully" == Uncle Bully <[email hidden]> writes:

Uncle Bully> What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a
Uncle Bully> red light, then pulling in front of everyone so that
Uncle Bully> when the light turns green everyone has to wait for you
Uncle Bully> because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

So all that traffic passing me when I pull off from the lights is
waiting for me? You and I must have a different definition of waiting.

What you are experiencing is a little deviation to clear the slower
moving vehicle and then slowing to the speed of the CAR in front of
you. That's what's holding you up.

In peak hour traffic I'll beat any car any day without slowing up other
traffic and all legally. Doesn't that just stick in your craw? Me on
my $1500 dollar bicycle beating you in your tens of thousands of dollars
worth of fuel guzzling machinery actually getting somewhere faster than
you.

Uncle Bully> All the other [censored] I can live with

What other [censored]? How do cyclists impact on your existence? Cyclists are
not the ones belching poisonous fumes which kill more people than the
road toll every year. Cyclists aren't the ones filling up the emergency
ward with carnage every day of the year. Cyclists aren't the ones
raping the planet for oil just to go about their daily lives.

Uncle Bully> Cyclists are usually the ones asking to share the road,
Uncle Bully> yet this action would indicate otherwise. I'm all for
Uncle Bully> sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster.

So the biggest / fastest / strongest have the greatest right? That's
not the way it works. Those with the potential to do the most harm have
the greatest care of duty to their fellow road users. When I drive
trucks I look out for cars, when I drive cars I look out for cyclists
and when I ride bikes I look out for jay walking pedestrians.

Uncle Bully> I can't see how being selfish can work as a strategy
Uncle Bully> when you are the smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing
Uncle Bully> on the road ?

Selfish huh? Next time you complain about congestion, realise that it's
the people taking up the most space that are contributing the most to
congestion. A car needs six times its length to operate. For most cars
that's 12 meters. A bike needs about an eighth of that.

You know what I think? I think you're jealous of us. I really do. If
you're [censored] being part of congestion, get on a bike and experience
freedom. If you're too scared to do it on your own, find your local BUG
and ask for help. Driving's very over-rated. I know, I used to drive
every day. Now I ride every day, I'm happy, fit, can eat like a king
and still maintain a respectable waistline. The tax free 10k each year
from not owning a car works wonders too :-)

When's the last time you heard a cyclist complaining about traffic?
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "maikkeli" == maikkeli <[email hidden]> writes:

maikkeli> Cyclists are particularly vulnerable and discriminated
maikkeli> against, having no other place to go (as pedestrians do),
maikkeli> nor the instantaneous speed of motorcyclists.

It's that instantaneous speed of motorcyclists which does for so many of
them. Sadly motorcyclists are the most over-represented road user in
the death toll. It is /slightly/ riskier to travel on the road by
bicycle than by car, but not by much. This is more than offset by all
the benefits that cycling brings such as reduced risk of diabetes, heart
disease etc.

Oh and fun. Let's not forget about the fun :-)
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "HellenWheels" == HellenWheels <HellenWheels> writes:

HellenWheels> OK, but I believe many cyclists say it is better in
HellenWheels> most cases not to filter up if possible. There are
HellenWheels> risks of peds running between cars, dooring and right
HellenWheels> hooking. Plus, as you see, it can annoy the
HellenWheels> drivers. If it's specifically allowed in your area,
HellenWheels> then yes it must be ok. Sorry.

It really depends on the road.

Often it makes much more sense for all concerned for the cyclist to
lane-split to the front. Where's the sense in stopping 10 cars back
when there's no hope of attaining a speed which will allow cars behind
to get through the lights? That really does delay other road users so
not very clever.

Getting to the front means that more traffic can get through the
lights. That's smart usage of the road and benefits everyone.
Motorists just don't see that though, all they see is someone getting
ahead of them on a bike re-enforcing the lie they've been sold when they
bought the car.
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

What is with assuming everyone who rides a bike is the same?
Is everyone who drives a car a drunk and/or stoned, SMS texting
hooligan with no
indicators and a complete disregard for the road laws?

Euan said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>> "maikkeli" == maikkeli <[email hidden]> writes:

maikkeli> Cyclists are particularly vulnerable and discriminated
maikkeli> against, having no other place to go (as pedestrians do),
maikkeli> nor the instantaneous speed of motorcyclists.

It's that instantaneous speed of motorcyclists which does for so many of
them. Sadly motorcyclists are the most over-represented road user in
the death toll. It is /slightly/ riskier to travel on the road by
bicycle than by car, but not by much.

I'm not sure I follow you here, Euan. You say it's slightly riskier to
travel on roads by bike than by car? Though I feel more danger on a bike
because of the vulnerability and the crazyness of some drivers, there are
probably people who have cycled for many years and never been hit.

In city traffic in my car I don't feel any risk, after all, surrounded by
metal, maybe going 35mph. With airbags and seat belts, barring a speeder
and a head-on collision, or a run-away truck, it feels petty safe. I've
been driving for 35 years and never had an accident at speed (two 5mph
fender benders), knock on wood. ;-)

Not arguing with you, just wondering aloud. Are you talking perceived risk,
or some kind of statistics, say accidents per cyclist-mile. I think I read
that in the US there were 700 bicycling fatalities in a year. If there are
a million cyclists, that's pretty low. Maybe you're talking just any
bike-car interaction and not just fatalities?

Again, just asking.

-Wheels

Quoted message said:

This is more than offset by all
the benefits that cycling brings such as reduced risk of diabetes, heart
disease etc.

Oh and fun. Let's not forget about the fun :-)

HellenWheels said:

OK, but I believe many cyclists say it is better in most cases not to
filter up if possible.

You can believe whatever the swiss vitamin institute says =)

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>> "HellenWheels" == HellenWheels <HellenWheels> writes:

HellenWheels> On Fri, 19 Aug 2005 12:42:03 GMT, Euan

HellenWheels said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>>>> "maikkeli" == maikkeli <[email hidden]>
>>>> writes:

maikkeli> Cyclists are particularly vulnerable and discriminated
maikkeli> against, having no other place to go (as pedestrians do),
maikkeli> nor the instantaneous speed of motorcyclists.

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

It's that instantaneous speed of motorcyclists which does for so
many of them. Sadly motorcyclists are the most over-represented
road user in the death toll. It is /slightly/ riskier to travel
on the road by bicycle than by car, but not by much.

HellenWheels> I'm not sure I follow you here, Euan. You say it's
HellenWheels> slightly riskier to travel on roads by bike than by
HellenWheels> car? Though I feel more danger on a bike because of
HellenWheels> the vulnerability and the crazyness of some drivers,
HellenWheels> there are probably people who have cycled for many
HellenWheels> years and never been hit.

And there are millions of pedestrians on the road who've not had
incident yet in some countries it's the pedestrians who are at more risk
than the cyclists.

Take the safety quiz :-)

http://www.bicyclinglife.com/SafetySkills/SafetyQuiz.htm
--
Cheers | ~~ __@
Euan | ~~ _-\<,
Melbourne, Australia | ~ (*)/ (*)

"ritcho" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green
everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand.
Cyclists
are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action would
indicate otherwise.
I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I
can't
see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

You evidently don't commute by car in Sydney at peak hour.

Correct

Quoted message said:

If you are
in a car,

I'm not

Quoted message said:

_you_ are by far the slowest thing on the road. Furthermore,
I'd have thought that taking the most space, the most energy and the
laziest way to move about was _easily_ a more selfish thing to do.

Get out your car, ride in traffic on a bicycle and you might gain some
understanding. If you don't have what it takes, stay in your car and be
patient, don't speed, stop at red lights, use your blinkers and your
eyes when you drive.

I agree. But back to the original question...

Uncle Bully said:

What is with lanesplitting to the front of traffic at a red light, then
pulling in front of everyone so that when the light turns green everyone has
to wait for you because you are by far the slowest thing on the road?

All the other [censored] I can live with but this one I can't understand. Cyclists
are usually the ones asking to share the road, yet this action would
indicate otherwise.
I'm all for sharing, but sharing means giving way to bigger/faster. I can't
see how being selfish can work as a strategy when you are the
smallest/slowest/most vulnerable thing on the road ?

I agree that courtesy is the thing that's lacking in the road system. I
tend to just join the queue most of the time if I'm going to hold up
traffic, but I make my presence in the queue obvious by sitting in the
middle of the lane. If someone wants to join in behind me then they do
so with the full knowledge that I'm taking the lane.

If I'm at the front of a queue in the left lane and a left turn arrow
turns green I move to the right of the lane to allow cars behind me to
turn the corner. I can only recall one occassion in twenty five years
when a motorist has actually acknowledged my courtesy. I was bowled over
when it happened.

What I can never understand is why motorists don't plant their fists on
the horn when they come up behind a front end loader doing 40-50km/h. If
a cyclist is going slower than the traffic stream, they are for some
reason expected to shift, but a big piece of machinery is legitimate in
the minds of drivers.

--
Peter McCallum
Mackay Qld AUSTRALIA