Explain this please???????????????????????

<[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Why is it that if I run one hour per day, I sometimes feel sore, tired,
etc. Yet if I run 90 minutes a day I feel fantastic! No stiffness
(except where it's supposed to be stiff) no sore muscles, and my
breathing is steady and not labored.
One hour and I hurt. 1.5 hours and I feel great.
Anyone explain this?

Can't talk about soreness. For some reason, I don't get sore except after a
long (3+ hour) race -- probably on account of dehydration.

Heck, I don't feel warmed up for 30-45 minutes, and it's a shame to stop
running so soon afterward. So my minimum run is about 1:15, these days. On
my long run, I usually feel my best after 90 minutes or so.

My typical sched when not peaking for a race:

Sun 1:30 very easy, walk steep uphills
Mon 1:15 easy
Tue 1:30 moderate/brisk
Wed 1:15 easy
Thu 1:30 moderate/brisk
Fri 1:15 easy
Sat 3:30 easy/moderate

All miles are hilly to mountainous, all on trails and unpaved fireroads.

Who knows, maybe it's endorphins; maybe it just takes that long for me to
get the fat-burning pathways warmed up.

Increased circulation flushes out lactic acid buildup.

Quoted message said:

Heck, I don't feel warmed up for 30-45 minutes, and it's a shame to stop

running so soon afterward. So my minimum run is about 1:15, these
days. On my long run, I usually feel my best after 90 minutes or so.>

Exactly! Glad it's not just me. This is one reason I advise people
having persistent injury problems to try an increase in mileage. Any
less than 90 minutes a day and I'd be injured too.

Twittering One said:

Increased circulation flushes out lactic acid buildup.

This is one of your best poems yet! Keep up the good work.

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Why is it that if I run one hour per day, I sometimes feel sore,
tired,
etc. Yet if I run 90 minutes a day I feel fantastic! No stiffness
(except where it's supposed to be stiff) no sore muscles, and my
breathing is steady and not labored.
One hour and I hurt. 1.5 hours and I feel great.
Anyone explain this?

I agree in part with Dan. I also take 45+ minutes to warm up. For us
it's a by-product of long distance running. If I want to run a 5 or 10k
hard I need to do a 5 mile warm-up. OTOH, the fact that you say you are
sore and tired and not just tight(maybe it's just the choice of words)
suggests you are over-training. I have no idea what your weekly mileage
or intensity is and feel the real answer lies there. From the 10,000
foot level I don't think running the same time and distance each day is
ieal training. There is no hard/easy regimen to allow recovery and maybe
why you feel tired.

Just a few mils worth from this minimal info question.

-DF

<[email hidden]> wrote in message
news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Heck, I don't feel warmed up for 30-45 minutes, and it's a shame to
stop

running so soon afterward. So my minimum run is about 1:15, these
days. On my long run, I usually feel my best after 90 minutes or
so.>

Exactly! Glad it's not just me. This is one reason I advise people
having persistent injury problems to try an increase in mileage. Any
less than 90 minutes a day and I'd be injured too.

In general this is [censored] poor advice!! Dan and myself are distance
runners with many of our runs in the 3-6+ hours range with oodles of
elevation gain and loss. Doing this real long stuff tends to keep us a
little tight each day and why we need some extra time to warm up. Age is
also a factor although Dan is a young buck at 50. 😉

If you fit into the high mileage category then running longer to warm up
is common and was your original question. If you are not into this
category and have low/lower mileage, then suggesting someone do more
while they have an injury is dangerously irresponsible. Run more with a
persistent injury? There is a very small set of injuries that one can
run through and improve. Even those that you can run through would
respond better to rest. Usually some form of RICE works best. I'd be
careful with your generalizations.

-DougF

Quoted message said:

Usually some form of RICE works best.

_

what kind do you suggest? Brown? Jasmine? Wild? does it make any
difference?

Quoted message said:

I agree in part with Dan. I also take 45+ minutes to warm up. For us

it's a by-product of long distance running. If I want to run a 5 or 10k

hard I need to do a 5 mile warm-up. OTOH, the fact that you say you are

sore and tired and not just tight(maybe it's just the choice of words)
suggests you are over-training. I have no idea what your weekly
mileage
or intensity is and feel the real answer lies there. From the 10,000
foot level I don't think running the same time and distance each day is

ieal training. There is no hard/easy regimen to allow recovery and
maybe
why you feel tired.

Just a few mils worth from this minimal info question.>

Well I really don't think overtraining is it. Would it make sense that
a third more mileage per day would make me feel better? I've been doing
90 minutes a day for years and years, so I'm pretty well used to it.
As far as "ideal training" I'm not really training for anything
specific, although a springtime marathon is a possibility, I'm retired
from racing and just doing it to stay fit.

[email hidden] wrote:
DF>>Usually some form of RICE works best.

Quoted message said:

what kind do you suggest?

Jerry, or Condoleezza.

~ Basmati

Explain this please???????????????????????

"Increased circulation flushes
Out lactic acid buildup."
~ Twittering

"This is one of your best poems yet!
Keep up the good work."
~ Teddy

"Merci!"
~ Twittering

"Usually some form of RICE works best.
What kind do you suggest?"
~ Lance and Rew

"Jerry, or Condoleezza.
Basmati."
~ CP

"Around a pause ~ Peeking
Round to see ~

Who's
Listening?"
~ Folly

Quoted message said:

Would it make sense that a third more mileage per day would
make me feel better?

That's a full 50% more, Dr. Math.

Seriously, I'm not sure my body would hold up to 90 min a day, every
day; but I *do* often feel pretty great on longer runs, around
60-70-80-90 minutes in. My muscles tend toward tight and inflexible
and sometimes the longer I warm up the better I feel. Though I've
never run longer than 42k and don't have the kind of accumulated
mileage of Doug or Dan, or for that matter you.

I also feel like I get some of this effect (the "muscles loosening up"
effect that is) running twice per day, whether it's because the total
mileage hits a certain threshhold or having only 11 hours and not 23 to
stiffen up.

You ever try two runs in a day? Or longer than 90 min? It seems like
you've long since settled into a routine that works for you; I'm
curious if there's any daily/weekly/seasonal variation and also how you
got there, i.e. how you built up to this, what did you try that didn't
work.

"Doug Freese" <[email hidden]> wrote

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Exactly! Glad it's not just me. This is one reason I advise people
having persistent injury problems to try an increase in mileage. Any
less than 90 minutes a day and I'd be injured too.

In general this is [censored] poor advice!! Dan and myself are distance runners
with many of our runs in the 3-6+ hours range with oodles of elevation
gain and loss.

For most people, Doug is right. On the injury front:

During my youth (early 40's after retiring from racing), I ran a few
times/week, usually about 40 minutes. I always felt sore and creaky. Then
I went back to running almost every day, and at least 1 hour, and the aches
and pains went away. I thought it was pretty amazing.

However: I used to run 95 mpw with some high intensity when in my 30's, so
I may be lucky in the durability department.

Second, I run most of my runs pretty slowly compared to the old days --
mostly in the high 8's/low 9's, and for long mountain runs, often into the
10's. And I run on soft surfaces.

Quoted message said:

Doing this real long stuff tends to keep us a little tight each day and
why we need some extra time to warm up. Age is also a factor although Dan
is a young buck at 50. 😉

When I ran my once-in-a-lifetime run with the 2:09 & 2:11 Kenyans, I was
amazed at how slowly they started out, 12+ min/mile. And they said they
usually warmed up for 30 minutes for their 2 a day workouts. These guys
were in their 20's.

Quoted message said:

If you are not into this category and have low/lower mileage, then
suggesting someone do more while they have an injury is dangerously
irresponsible. Run more with a persistent injury? There is a very small
set of injuries that one can run through and improve.

It may be true that you can increase distance provided that you decrease
speed, and work out various minor injuries. Going just 10% too fast can
cause much more stress than that 10% would imply. I started jogging
(slowly on soft sand) as therapy for my Tennis-tweaked knee. The running
cured it, and got me hooked.

Quoted message said:

Even those that you can run through would respond better to rest. Usually
some form of RICE works best. I'd be careful with your generalizations.

Running longer and slower as a curative is probably one of those "don't try
this at home" things best left to those with lots of miles on the odometer.

-- Dan

Quoted message said:

That's a full 50% more, Dr. Math.>

I flunked math.

Quoted message said:

Seriously, I'm not sure my body would hold up to 90 min a day, every

day;>

Well I'm in the enviable position (doggie style usually) of being able
to do nothing but my runs. I have 22.5 hours to recover, so it's not as
difficult when you put it in that frame of reference. A nap is almost
always included in my recovery period.

Quoted message said:

but I *do* often feel pretty great on longer runs, around

60-70-80-90 minutes in. My muscles tend toward tight and inflexible
and sometimes the longer I warm up the better I feel.>

I think that's it, because in the last 30 minutes of a 90 minute run I
notice my upper body relaxes considerably, and I feel very fluid, even
if I'm hurting from dehydration etc., my upper body and form are
perfect.

Quoted message said:

Though I've never run longer than 42k and don't have the kind of accumulated

mileage of Doug or Dan, or for that matter you.>

My longest race was 26 miles, previous to that 18 milers were my once a
weekend long runs. But after my 18 milers I felt like I could do
another 18 easily, yet shorter runs sometimes killed me.

Quoted message said:

I also feel like I get some of this effect (the "muscles loosening up"

effect that is) running twice per day, whether it's because the total
mileage hits a certain threshhold or having only 11 hours and not 23 to

stiffen up.You ever try two runs in a day?>

I did double WO's getting ready for my last marathon in "83", and I
found they beat the [censored] outta me much more than one per day of equal
length. Each day produced one good run, and one bad run, with no
noticeable consistency.

Quoted message said:

Or longer than 90 min?>

Races and 18 milers went longer than that. My longest time was 5.5
hours of running.

Quoted message said:

It seems like you've long since settled into a routine that works for you; I'm

curious if there's any daily/weekly/seasonal variation>

Not much variation of times, just slow and steady most days, I'm
satisified to do it slowly and without injury. I do take the worst
winter months off, I'm just too old to bother fighting the elements
unless I have a race in sight for the spring, like I do this year. Also
saves a bundle on shoes. The wet weather and salt on the roads here can
ruin shoes quick.

Quoted message said:

and also how you got there, i.e. how you built up to this, what did you try that didn't work.>

No real advice on buildup except the same rules on adding on mileage
(5%?) as you follow anytime. It did take years and years to gradually
build up to this after years of smoking three packs a day. I remember
my first goal was to walk 1 mile, an impossibilty the shape I was in,
but eventually it became to jog one mile. Then I remembered doing 3
miles a day, a WHOLE half hour! And I kept thinking "my ultimate goal
would be to someday to be a 5 mile a day guy". A few years later when
I'd done it, and run several races of shorter distances (narrowly
missing third in my first 5k when I stopped to puke 50 yards from the
finish and got passed by 5 guys) I started dreaming of doing a
marathon, and I followed the same guidelines to up my mileage to 70 per
week to prepare. I arrived on the start line completley confident I was
going to do exactly what I planned on, confident that I was so
physically fit, my training so perfect, that I knew the outcome before
I started. Although others who knew me weren't nearly as sure LOL!

PS I try to do most of my mileage off road, to minimize the pounding on
my legs. When I do a long distance on pavement I feel a noticeable
difference in my leg muscles. Trail running allows me to do a lot more
miles safely.

Quoted message said:

Why is it that if I run one hour per day, I sometimes feel sore, tired,
etc. Yet if I run 90 minutes a day I feel fantastic! No stiffness
(except where it's supposed to be stiff) no sore muscles, and my
breathing is steady and not labored.
One hour and I hurt. 1.5 hours and I feel great.

Is this what they used to call "second wind"?

"Charlie Pendejo" <[email hidden]> wrote

Hey, isn't it cool when there's an actual running thread going on?

Quoted message said:

I also feel like I get some of this effect (the "muscles loosening up"
effect that is) running twice per day, whether it's because the total
mileage hits a certain threshhold or having only 11 hours and not 23 to
stiffen up.

You ever try two runs in a day?

Yes, and the second one seems to have a "pre warmed up" quality to it. I
never got into it for two reasons:

a) Always in the shower, warming up, cooling down, or washing clothes.
b) I read ages ago that Mitochondrial growth and aerobic development is
better stimulated by one 90+ minute run than two 45 minute-ers.

Quoted message said:

Hey, isn't it cool when there's an actual running thread going on?>

Sorry, I'll try not to let it happen again.

Quoted message said:

Yes, and the second one seems to have a "pre warmed up" quality to it.>

Same here, but in my case it didn't always translate into better times.

Quoted message said:

I never got into it for two reasons:

a) Always in the shower, warming up, cooling down, or washing clothes
b) I read ages ago that Mitochondrial growth and aerobic development
is
better stimulated by one 90+ minute run than two 45 minute-ers.

I certainly feel that one long one is better than two short ones, and
my wife confirmed it...

"Explain this please???????????????????????
Is this what they used to call
Second wind?"
~ Rick

"... from witches, the vaccum wickedly
Comes."
~ Blackstone

"Heck, yeah ~ !

Don't get gutted. Don't get gut ~ wrenched.
Don't be a gutter ball. Don't let guttural gurgles
Scare you. Call out ~ ! Gyrostat anti ~ dote
Counter spell ~ ! Gyrate ~ ! Get your gypsophila
Fresh and fragrant, gyre knot ~ !
Go not gently to the guillotine ~ !

Galvanize your gull wing ~ !"
~ Folly