Question about Race Tradition

Stewart Fleming said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting 15s
down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the
last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

If they were name-calling xenophobes like you, probably.

No, they would quit and spend the last day playing volley ball on the beaches of Paris-Plage

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting 15s
down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the
last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting 15s
down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the
last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?

B-

89

"Bruce Johnston" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen
on the last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?

B-

Bruce Johnston said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen
on the last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?

1989, but it was an ITT ;-)

Quoted message said:

B-

"Bruce Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen
on the last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?

Lemond/Fignon. But it was a TT.

D.

Quoted message said:

B-

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗).
Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 7/14/2003

Quoted message said:

If they were name-calling xenophobes like you, probably.

I'd crash into the kraut when he's drinking the champagne.

"Darren S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bruce Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?

Would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last day?

Lemond/Fignon. But it was a TT.

yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave that one for Masso.

Quoted message said:

D.

Quoted message said:

B-

---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (grisoft.comgrisoft.comOpen ↗).
Version: 6.0.501 / Virus Database: 299 - Release Date: 7/14/2003

"Bruce Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Darren S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bruce Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> procession and that no serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this
> before the Luz-Ardiden stage,

but...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?

Would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last

day?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lemond/Fignon. But it was a TT.

yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave that one for Masso.

Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question. In the history of the Tour it happened only
three times: in 1989 (TT), 1968 (also a TT) and 1947, when Robic (3d in the GC at 2'58"😉 attacked
120 km before the finish in Paris depriving poor Pierre Brambilla of the yellow jersey.

Benjo Maso

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting 15s
down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the
last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason behind them other than history.
Historically there has usually not been sufficient reason to attack on the last days because the GC
has been firmly established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water is against
tradition only because historically it would have been a back strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of the general classification,
then that becomes sufficient reason to attack the current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it would be expected that any of
the 3 would attack in order to become the final GC winner. In other words, the expectation that
Lance would launch an attack to secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2
would attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the riders is firmly
established as the GC leader or the end of the race, which ever comes first.

68's arrival was at La Cipale, the "velodrome" in Vincennes that served as a replacement for Parc
des Princes, the stadium. That was before the Champs and the tradition called for a tight
competition in the finish because of the track, but circling around the champs is similar.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> a écrit dans le message de
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bruce Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Darren S." <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Bruce Johnston" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
>
> "Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> > TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris

is

Quoted message said:

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > procession and that no serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing
> > this before the Luz-Ardiden stage,

but...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> >
> > ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final

climb

Quoted message said:

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> > stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few

seconds

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

more

Quoted message said:

> > in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?

Would

Quoted message said:

> > US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last

stage?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> What year was the last time the TDF winner was decided on the last

day?

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Lemond/Fignon. But it was a TT.

yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one for Masso.

Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question. In the history of the Tour it happened
only three times: in 1989 (TT), 1968 (also a TT) and 1947, when Robic (3d in the GC at 2'58"😉
attacked 120 km before the finish in Paris depriving poor Pierre Brambilla of the yellow jersey.

Benjo Maso

In article said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen
on the last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason behind them other than
history. Historically there has usually not been sufficient reason to attack on the last days
because the GC has been firmly established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water
is against tradition only because historically it would have been a back strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of the general classification,
then that becomes sufficient reason to attack the current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it would be expected that any
of the 3 would attack in order to become the final GC winner. In other words, the expectation that
Lance would launch an attack to secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2
would attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the riders is firmly
established as the GC leader or the end of the race, which ever comes first.

Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the Champs-Elysee stage is the most
prestigious non-jersey accomplishment you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is always
flat and short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is willing to attack and nail
breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the 10 laps.

It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early attack, but there is little chance it
will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi is a stronger team than I think.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

[Posted and mailed]

In article said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds more in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen
on the last stage? Would US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason behind them other than
history. Historically there has usually not been sufficient reason to attack on the last days
because the GC has been firmly established. For example, the yellow jersey going back to get water
is against tradition only because historically it would have been a back strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of the general classification,
then that becomes sufficient reason to attack the current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it would be expected that any
of the 3 would attack in order to become the final GC winner. In other words, the expectation that
Lance would launch an attack to secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2
would attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the riders is firmly
established as the GC leader or the end of the race, which ever comes first.

On a historical basis this begs the question, how will Lance Armstrong be seen,in years to come, for
allowing the maillot jeune to tote water?

Wes

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?

Would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason

behind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them other than history. Historically there has usually not been

sufficient

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly established. For example, the
yellow jersey going back to get water is against tradition only because historically it would
have been a back strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the final

GC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an

attack to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2 would attack in order to
defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the riders is firmly established as the GC
leader or the end of the race,

which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ever comes first.

Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the Champs-Elysee stage is the most
prestigious non-jersey accomplishment you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is always
flat and short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is willing to attack and nail
breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the 10 laps.

It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early attack, but there is little chance
it will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi is a stronger team than I think.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni Fan Club

In that case you may see a breakaway that has one of the 3 working with others that want a shot at
the stage win. The GC contender would agree to not dispute the stage in exchange for hauling ass in
the break along with support from whatever the team can do to slow the chase. However, as you point
out they would be working against any teams that are left out and especially teams with sprinters
that hope to take the stage. Combine that with any other teams shooting for additional green jersey
points and this hypothetical break is doomed. Still, my point is that anything goes when the jersey
is not well established.

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"Ryan Cousineau" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

In article said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is

a

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> procession and that no serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this
> before the Luz-Ardiden stage,

but...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?

Would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason

behind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them other than history. Historically there has usually not been

sufficient

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly established. For example, the
yellow jersey going back to get water is against tradition only because historically it would
have been a back strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the

final

Quoted message said:

GC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an

attack to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race,

which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ever comes first.

Very astute. The other problem, though, is that winning the Champs-Elysee stage is the most
prestigious non-jersey accomplishment you can manage at le Tour. Since the stage profile is
always flat and short (just over 150 km this year), every team in the race is willing to attack
and nail breakaways in order to neutralize the race until the 10 laps.

It's possible that if the GC is close, there will be an early attack, but there is little chance
it will succeed, unless USPS or Bianchi is a stronger team than I think.

--
Ryan Cousineau, [email hidden] sfu.ca~rcousineOpen ↗ President, Fabrizio Mazzoleni
Fan Club

In that case you may see a breakaway that has one of the 3 working with others that want a shot
at the stage win. The GC contender would agree to not dispute the stage in exchange for hauling
ass in the break along with support from whatever the team can do to slow the chase. However, as
you point out they would be working against any teams that are left out and especially teams
with sprinters that hope to take the stage. Combine that with any other teams shooting for
additional green jersey points and this hypothetical break is doomed. Still, my point is that
anything goes when

the

Quoted message said:

jersey is not well established.

Could be the best one-day race ever....

benjo maso said:

Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question. In the history of the Tour it happened
only three times: in 1989 (TT), 1968 (also a TT) and 1947, when Robic (3d in the GC at 2'58"😉
attacked 120 km before the finish in Paris depriving poor Pierre Brambilla of the yellow jersey.

Follow-up question then:

Who is/are the senior riders or the senior team that would prevent or discourage this from
happening? Sort of the Duclos-Lassalle role...

McEwen would be beside himself if it didn't come down to the usual sprint.

"phantom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[Posted and mailed]

In article said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
stage, but...

...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb on stage 15 and is sitting
15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?

Would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason

behind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them other than history. Historically there has usually not been

sufficient

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly established. For example, the
yellow jersey going back to get water is against tradition only because historically it would
have been a back strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the final

GC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an

attack to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2 would attack in order to
defeat him. This expectation remains until one of the riders is firmly established as the GC
leader or the end of the race,

which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ever comes first.

On a historical basis this begs the question, how will Lance Armstrong be

seen,in years to come, for allowing the maillot jeune to tote water?

Quoted message said:

Wes

It is a non-issue to everyone but Usenet users.

"Nick Burns" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

"phantom" <[email hidden]> wrote in message
"]news:[email hidden]...

Quoted message said:

[Posted and mailed]

In article said:

"Stewart Fleming" <[email hidden]> wrote in message "]news:[email hidden]...
> TdF tradition in recent years is that the final stage into Paris is a procession and that no
> serious racing takes place until the Champs-Elysees. I'm writing this before the Luz-Ardiden
> stage,

but...

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

>
> ...if the prime German Sausage doesn't lose time up the final climb

on

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> stage 15 and is sitting 15s down on Lance, then takes a few seconds

more

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> in the last ITT on stage 19, what could happen on the last stage?

Would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

> US Postal break with tradition and force the race on the last stage?

Many of these traditions that people keep referencing have no reason

behind

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

them other than history. Historically there has usually not been

sufficient

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

reason to attack on the last days because the GC has been firmly established. For example, the
yellow jersey going back to get water is against tradition only because historically it would
have been a back strategic decision.

Any time there is a reasonable doubt as to the complete resolution of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

general classification, then that becomes sufficient reason to attack

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

current leader.

In this case of 3 riders all within 1 minute of the lowest GC time, it

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

be expected that any of the 3 would attack in order to become the

final

Quoted message said:

GC

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

winner. In other words, the expectation that Lance would launch an

attack to

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

secure the jersey is as strong as the expectation that the other 2

would

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

attack in order to defeat him. This expectation remains until one of

the

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

riders is firmly established as the GC leader or the end of the race,

which

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

ever comes first.

On a historical basis this begs the question, how will Lance Armstrong

be

Quoted message said:

seen,in years to come, for allowing the maillot jeune to tote water?

Quoted message said:

Wes

It is a non-issue to everyone but Usenet users.

I can just see the Lotto guys yelling "Hey - you are breaking tradition! Get back here!"

I am sure that USPS, Telekom and Bianchi will give a [censored] about what everyone else thinks.

This all assumes that Robbie McWhiner doesn't push everyone into a ditch along the way.

"benjo maso" <[email hidden]> wrote in message

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

yeah, and before that it must of been a very long time. I will leave

that

Quoted message said:

Quoted message said:

one for Masso.

Although my name isn't Masso, I can answer the question. Benjo Maso

We understand.

Mr. LVM-L Stalker/Name Butcher seems to think the second five-time TdF winner was Merck.